So, to be clear, you’re saying that someone who is happy to present as their gender assigned at birth, behave like their gender assigned at birth, who doesn’t feel dysphoria, and is socialised as their gender assigned at birth can be non-binary?
Where are you getting all this info from? From the perspective of the comic, ignoring that it’s a meme comic, there’s no way to tell what gender either character was assigned at birth, let alone any of the other details. Either one could’ve been AMAB, and the second one is at least a former cutter based on the scars (the shoulder is a popular location because it doesn’t show when you wear a t-shirt). Was that from dysphoria? Who knows, they didn’t tell us. Edit: just went back and realized those are folds in the sleeve of their shirt, not scars. This image needs more pixels.
From a broader perspective: …yes? To be considered a certain gender you only need to identify as that gender. There are no other requirements. You don’t need to act a certain way, look a certain way, or even have dysphoria. Is a trans woman who’s in the closet not a woman? If they identify as a woman, they’re a woman. If they identify as nonbinary, then they’re nonbinary.
The dysphoria one is also a big one for me, so I’m gonna talk about it specifically just in case it helps someone who happens to read this: you don’t need to have dysphoria in order to be trans. You don’t. If you’re happy as your AGAB but feel like you’d be happier as another gender, then go ahead and transition. Or don’t. Or only go as far as makes you happy. Because at the end of the day, it’s about being comfortable in your own skin.
So many trans people think “well, I didn’t have dysphoria as a kid so I can’t be trans” or some variation of that thought, only to transition and either find out that, yes, they did experience dysphoria and just couldn’t tell because it was their normal everyday experience, or experience the more important gender euphoria after they transition.
Honestly, the answer is still yes. I don’t consider there to be some prerequisite quota of defying gender norms that you need to accomplish before you can identify as nonbinary. “You must be this gender queer to use this pronoun” seems as stupid to me as “you can’t be trans unless you have an official gender dysphoria diagnosis.”
I wouldn’t consider a femboy or a he/him lesbian to be nonbinary, but I would consider somebody who looks like a femboy or a femme woman to be nonbinary if they identify as nonbinary. How somebody dresses or acts is not indicative of their gender identity. Otherwise we’re just recreating the patriarchal gender binary again with new categories.
Fair enough - for me, if someone is happy to have a typically binary gender expression / presentation, then it doesn’t make sense for them to identify as non-binary.
I think there needs to be something, otherwise the thing to advocate for is to have no labels at all
Ironically, I think we’re starting to hit the point of recreating the substance of the meme.
To me, gender is all performative anyway, so you might as well take the parts that make you feel comfortable/happy and ignore all the rest. What is or isn’t considered “gendered” - especially in the binary - changes almost as often as fashion. What we might consider a very traditionally femme presentation and mannerisms might be considered radical in 10 or 20 years time. In the 80s, fashion in the Middle East looked just like America, and long before that it was culturally considered attractive for women to have a bit of facial hair on the upper lip. Today, we have radical Islam that has set a cultural standard that is on the level of Puritanism. In the 2000s, men created a new term - metrosexual - to describe straight men who like to dress nicely and take a shower because they were afraid of being mistaken for being gay. It’s all so silly.
Expression of the self and your own free will is the most divine act humanity can perform, and labels are to be used to aid in that expression. I see no difference between somebody using a nonbinary gender label for themselves because it makes them feel happy than a trans woman who won’t/can’t transition. People are their own wholly unique beings and any label we make won’t fit the same from one person to the next. Also, we should make more genders just for the simple reason that it pisses off the transphobes. That’s always a win in my book.
“Ironically, I think we’re starting to hit the point of recreating the substance of the meme.”
Ok, but no tongues.
Yes, I think we both understand each other’s point of view now. Perhaps I’m more wary of self a identification because I’ve seen other groups (sports and spiritual) accept self-description and then get turned inside out through it :-/
Where are you getting all this info from? From the perspective of the comic, ignoring that it’s a meme comic, there’s no way to tell what gender either character was assigned at birth, let alone any of the other details. Either one could’ve been AMAB, and the second one is at least a former cutter based on the scars (the shoulder is a popular location because it doesn’t show when you wear a t-shirt). Was that from dysphoria? Who knows, they didn’t tell us. Edit: just went back and realized those are folds in the sleeve of their shirt, not scars. This image needs more pixels.
From a broader perspective: …yes? To be considered a certain gender you only need to identify as that gender. There are no other requirements. You don’t need to act a certain way, look a certain way, or even have dysphoria. Is a trans woman who’s in the closet not a woman? If they identify as a woman, they’re a woman. If they identify as nonbinary, then they’re nonbinary.
The dysphoria one is also a big one for me, so I’m gonna talk about it specifically just in case it helps someone who happens to read this: you don’t need to have dysphoria in order to be trans. You don’t. If you’re happy as your AGAB but feel like you’d be happier as another gender, then go ahead and transition. Or don’t. Or only go as far as makes you happy. Because at the end of the day, it’s about being comfortable in your own skin.
So many trans people think “well, I didn’t have dysphoria as a kid so I can’t be trans” or some variation of that thought, only to transition and either find out that, yes, they did experience dysphoria and just couldn’t tell because it was their normal everyday experience, or experience the more important gender euphoria after they transition.
ok, that’s fair - change “gender assigned at birth” to “either traditional binary gender”
Honestly, the answer is still yes. I don’t consider there to be some prerequisite quota of defying gender norms that you need to accomplish before you can identify as nonbinary. “You must be this gender queer to use this pronoun” seems as stupid to me as “you can’t be trans unless you have an official gender dysphoria diagnosis.”
I wouldn’t consider a femboy or a he/him lesbian to be nonbinary, but I would consider somebody who looks like a femboy or a femme woman to be nonbinary if they identify as nonbinary. How somebody dresses or acts is not indicative of their gender identity. Otherwise we’re just recreating the patriarchal gender binary again with new categories.
Fair enough - for me, if someone is happy to have a typically binary gender expression / presentation, then it doesn’t make sense for them to identify as non-binary.
I think there needs to be something, otherwise the thing to advocate for is to have no labels at all
Ironically, I think we’re starting to hit the point of recreating the substance of the meme.
To me, gender is all performative anyway, so you might as well take the parts that make you feel comfortable/happy and ignore all the rest. What is or isn’t considered “gendered” - especially in the binary - changes almost as often as fashion. What we might consider a very traditionally femme presentation and mannerisms might be considered radical in 10 or 20 years time. In the 80s, fashion in the Middle East looked just like America, and long before that it was culturally considered attractive for women to have a bit of facial hair on the upper lip. Today, we have radical Islam that has set a cultural standard that is on the level of Puritanism. In the 2000s, men created a new term - metrosexual - to describe straight men who like to dress nicely and take a shower because they were afraid of being mistaken for being gay. It’s all so silly.
Expression of the self and your own free will is the most divine act humanity can perform, and labels are to be used to aid in that expression. I see no difference between somebody using a nonbinary gender label for themselves because it makes them feel happy than a trans woman who won’t/can’t transition. People are their own wholly unique beings and any label we make won’t fit the same from one person to the next. Also, we should make more genders just for the simple reason that it pisses off the transphobes. That’s always a win in my book.
“Ironically, I think we’re starting to hit the point of recreating the substance of the meme.”
Ok, but no tongues.
Yes, I think we both understand each other’s point of view now. Perhaps I’m more wary of self a identification because I’ve seen other groups (sports and spiritual) accept self-description and then get turned inside out through it :-/