Correct, capitalist democracy is not democracy at all. Within capitalism, the ruling class either wins, or has the tools to walk back a loss, such as couping Allende in Chile after he won democratically. Both Trump and Kamala Harris are examples of genocidal imperialists, both are representatives of the ruling class, every president has been a representative of the ruling class in US history.
If enough of us voted for PSL, the state would work against that unless we overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist one. This is reality, and as long as you remain trapped within the narrow mindset of bourgeois faux-democracy as your only option, then you will never get the change we need.
You keep seeing the state as outside of society, outside of class struggle, outside of how we produce and distribute. If we understand the state as a part of society and not outside and above it, then we have to recognize the class character of the state.
Lol! Like I said…you keep saying the words without actually knowing what they mean. All you’re doing is repeating slogans verbatim, with no real comprehension. If this is what passes for Socialist thought in North America, it’s no wonder you guys are so far behind the curve. You don’t even understand the mechanisms that drive your own political reality.
Case in point…
You keep seeing the state as outside of society, outside of class struggle, outside of how we produce and distribute. If we understand the state as a part of society and not outside and above it, then we have to recognize the class character of the state.
You don’t even realize that you are projecting your own misunderstandings onto me. Good luck, friend.
Nothing I said is contradictory, nor projection. If you want to establish socialism, you cannot just vote for it, you have to overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist one. Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. have already done so in the past. Engage with what I’m saying, I repeat myself because you keep making the same mistakes and dodging the point.
I feel like this is how our conversation is going…
Me: “Look. See this hammer? I can hit a nail with it, which means I’m using it to build. Then, I can turn around and hit a person with it, which means I’m using it to cause harm. But, it’s still the same hammer. Do you understand?”
And you’ve all like: “Nope. Those are two totally different hammers. We need to destroy one, and keep the other. That’s the only way.”
It’s pretty bizarre talking to someone who can’t even grasp basic reality. Enjoy your state of confusion. Let us all know when you’ve figured out what “revolution” means. That should be equally insightful.
The simple answer is that capitalist “democracy” is “democracy” controlled by capitalists. Capitalists control production and distribution, pick what parties can run, run the mass media and bribe officials. Socialist democracy exists in the context of worker control. You view democracy as existing outside of this context, usable by anyone for any aim, which is why you’re running into the same mistake. Revolution means overthrowing the system with force, see what the bolsheviks did in Russia for an example.
I have no idea where your condescension comes from, if you can’t acknowledge the role capital plays in the state then you’ll forever be confused.
do you ever wonder if someone is running interference on you?
i ask because i’m likewise having to phrase and then rephrase repeatedly with someone else right now and that’s preventing me from engaging with anyone else.
You view democracy as existing outside of this context, usable by anyone for any aim, which is why you’re running into the same mistake.
Wow. Do you not get that in the lines just before this stunning revelation, YOU described exactly how capitalists use democracy one way and socialists use democracy another way? Yet, for some reason, your conclusion is that there are still *two different democracies" being used.
You keep accusing me of thinking there is a separation between these concepts…but you are the one who keeps arguing that they are separate. I don’t know how much more simply I can explain it…and yet you still don’t seem to understand that basic concept. You can’t even see that you’re the one making the argument that you’re arguing against.
It’s seriously bizarre. I haven’t seen this level of cognitive dissonance in quite a while.
A wrought iron sledge hammer and a plastic toy hammer are both hammers yet they are qualitatively different. Liberal democracy and Socialist democracy are both a democracy yet are qualitatively different.
Again, with the “two separate hammers” analogy. They are the same hammer. You just can just use it for more than one purpose. How you use it, determines whether it’s “good” or “bad”.
What happens after you’ve destroyed “capitalist democracy” and replaced it with “socialist democracy”…and then someone learns how to exploit the system again? Do you destroy it all over again, and make a new one? Again? And then again, again? And then again, again, again?
At some point, would you not realize that it’s not democracy that’s flawed? Or would you just keep destroying it over and over again, expecting different results?
You’re treating democracy as class-neutral. That’s wrong. There is no abstract “democracy” floating above society, every democracy expresses class power. Liberal democracy is the dictatorship of capital: private ownership, capital controls media and institutions, and workers can vote forever without ever voting away exploitation. Socialist democracy is the dictatorship of the proletariat: bourgeois property is abolished, exploiters are politically suppressed, and the working class holds state power. Same word, different class rule. Not “the same hammer used differently,” but qualitatively different systems.
And your “what if someone exploits it again?” question just proves the point. Yes, class struggle continues under socialism. When new bourgeois elements emerge, you suppress them. That’s exactly what proletarian dictatorship exists for. Socialism isn’t a one-time constitutional tweak; it’s an ongoing process of fighting capitalist restoration.
Nobody is saying democracy itself is bad, but that democracy in the context of capitalism isn’t really democratic. Socialist democracy works, and does so far better than democracy in capitalist systems at achieving results for the working classes. We expect democracy to work differently in socialism because this is observably true.
I’m not talking about how individual capitalists or socialists use democracy, but how democracy as a system functions in capitalism vs. socialism. My point isn’t that democracy is bad, but that democracy can only exist in the context of the class struggle, and in economic systems dominated by capitalism, the democratic institutions will inevitably be hollow and unusable for the purposes of establishing socialism.
I absolutely understand the basic concept, my point is that socialists in the, say, US, or Canada, cannot use existing structures of “democracy” to bring about socialism. No cognitive dissonance on my part, just pure metaphysical thinking on yours.
I’m not talking about how individual capitalists or socialists use democracy, but how democracy as a system functions in capitalism vs. socialism.
You may as well be saying, “It’s not who uses the hammer that makes it bad, but how they use it, that does.” My brother in Christ…the person using it decides how it’s used. FFS. You are talking in circles again without realizing you’re arguing against your point.
Do you believe that things like the media, culture, state, and industry have absolutely no impact whatsoever on how things are decided in a given system?
Correct, capitalist democracy is not democracy at all. Within capitalism, the ruling class either wins, or has the tools to walk back a loss, such as couping Allende in Chile after he won democratically. Both Trump and Kamala Harris are examples of genocidal imperialists, both are representatives of the ruling class, every president has been a representative of the ruling class in US history.
If enough of us voted for PSL, the state would work against that unless we overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist one. This is reality, and as long as you remain trapped within the narrow mindset of bourgeois faux-democracy as your only option, then you will never get the change we need.
You keep seeing the state as outside of society, outside of class struggle, outside of how we produce and distribute. If we understand the state as a part of society and not outside and above it, then we have to recognize the class character of the state.
Lol! Like I said…you keep saying the words without actually knowing what they mean. All you’re doing is repeating slogans verbatim, with no real comprehension. If this is what passes for Socialist thought in North America, it’s no wonder you guys are so far behind the curve. You don’t even understand the mechanisms that drive your own political reality.
Case in point…
You don’t even realize that you are projecting your own misunderstandings onto me. Good luck, friend.
Nothing I said is contradictory, nor projection. If you want to establish socialism, you cannot just vote for it, you have to overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist one. Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. have already done so in the past. Engage with what I’m saying, I repeat myself because you keep making the same mistakes and dodging the point.
I feel like this is how our conversation is going…
Me: “Look. See this hammer? I can hit a nail with it, which means I’m using it to build. Then, I can turn around and hit a person with it, which means I’m using it to cause harm. But, it’s still the same hammer. Do you understand?”
And you’ve all like: “Nope. Those are two totally different hammers. We need to destroy one, and keep the other. That’s the only way.”
It’s pretty bizarre talking to someone who can’t even grasp basic reality. Enjoy your state of confusion. Let us all know when you’ve figured out what “revolution” means. That should be equally insightful.
The simple answer is that capitalist “democracy” is “democracy” controlled by capitalists. Capitalists control production and distribution, pick what parties can run, run the mass media and bribe officials. Socialist democracy exists in the context of worker control. You view democracy as existing outside of this context, usable by anyone for any aim, which is why you’re running into the same mistake. Revolution means overthrowing the system with force, see what the bolsheviks did in Russia for an example.
I have no idea where your condescension comes from, if you can’t acknowledge the role capital plays in the state then you’ll forever be confused.
do you ever wonder if someone is running interference on you?
i ask because i’m likewise having to phrase and then rephrase repeatedly with someone else right now and that’s preventing me from engaging with anyone else.
Not really, sometimes I just think people can be stubborn, or simple miscommunication happens. Text isn’t as clear as speaking in person.
i guess the epstein files are making me extra paranoid. lol
Fair, lol
Wow. Do you not get that in the lines just before this stunning revelation, YOU described exactly how capitalists use democracy one way and socialists use democracy another way? Yet, for some reason, your conclusion is that there are still *two different democracies" being used.
You keep accusing me of thinking there is a separation between these concepts…but you are the one who keeps arguing that they are separate. I don’t know how much more simply I can explain it…and yet you still don’t seem to understand that basic concept. You can’t even see that you’re the one making the argument that you’re arguing against.
It’s seriously bizarre. I haven’t seen this level of cognitive dissonance in quite a while.
A wrought iron sledge hammer and a plastic toy hammer are both hammers yet they are qualitatively different. Liberal democracy and Socialist democracy are both a democracy yet are qualitatively different.
Again, with the “two separate hammers” analogy. They are the same hammer. You just can just use it for more than one purpose. How you use it, determines whether it’s “good” or “bad”.
What happens after you’ve destroyed “capitalist democracy” and replaced it with “socialist democracy”…and then someone learns how to exploit the system again? Do you destroy it all over again, and make a new one? Again? And then again, again? And then again, again, again?
At some point, would you not realize that it’s not democracy that’s flawed? Or would you just keep destroying it over and over again, expecting different results?
You’re treating democracy as class-neutral. That’s wrong. There is no abstract “democracy” floating above society, every democracy expresses class power. Liberal democracy is the dictatorship of capital: private ownership, capital controls media and institutions, and workers can vote forever without ever voting away exploitation. Socialist democracy is the dictatorship of the proletariat: bourgeois property is abolished, exploiters are politically suppressed, and the working class holds state power. Same word, different class rule. Not “the same hammer used differently,” but qualitatively different systems.
And your “what if someone exploits it again?” question just proves the point. Yes, class struggle continues under socialism. When new bourgeois elements emerge, you suppress them. That’s exactly what proletarian dictatorship exists for. Socialism isn’t a one-time constitutional tweak; it’s an ongoing process of fighting capitalist restoration.
You should really read Chairman Mao and Lenin.
Nobody is saying democracy itself is bad, but that democracy in the context of capitalism isn’t really democratic. Socialist democracy works, and does so far better than democracy in capitalist systems at achieving results for the working classes. We expect democracy to work differently in socialism because this is observably true.
I’m not talking about how individual capitalists or socialists use democracy, but how democracy as a system functions in capitalism vs. socialism. My point isn’t that democracy is bad, but that democracy can only exist in the context of the class struggle, and in economic systems dominated by capitalism, the democratic institutions will inevitably be hollow and unusable for the purposes of establishing socialism.
I absolutely understand the basic concept, my point is that socialists in the, say, US, or Canada, cannot use existing structures of “democracy” to bring about socialism. No cognitive dissonance on my part, just pure metaphysical thinking on yours.
You may as well be saying, “It’s not who uses the hammer that makes it bad, but how they use it, that does.” My brother in Christ…the person using it decides how it’s used. FFS. You are talking in circles again without realizing you’re arguing against your point.
Do you believe that things like the media, culture, state, and industry have absolutely no impact whatsoever on how things are decided in a given system?