• Quittenbrot@feddit.org
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    12 hours ago

    Then the next question was would you approve a humanitarian intervention, by Iran, in Israel, in 2024 CE, to force the IDF withdrawal to the 1967 borders, prosecuted through the gaggle of militias they actually have access to, and you started yelling “terrorist terrorist”

    Easy: because we at that point left the hypothetical sphere and entered what Iran actually is doing since decades in this conflict. Terrorism. You basically say it yourself by tying the hypothetical example to their real actions, trying to transfer the ‘legitimacy’ from the first to the latter:

    the ‘action’ only happened last week, but the hypothetical wasn’t about self-defense, it was about illegal intervention in prevention of gross human rights violations. Those didn’t begin last week, did they? Or, in fact, was Iran really only attacked last week?

    Given that these actions of Iran aren’t hypothetical but very real, let’s not try to pretend that the questions around it still are hypothetical. But treat them real as well.

    So when you try to raise real questions, let’s hear your real answer:

    Was Iran attacked by Israel before they started to fund and steer all of their terror pawns in Arab countries several decades ago? Before they announced their objective to eliminate Israel?

    Because that’s what it boils down to at this point.

    • Aqarius@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      12 hours ago

      So, you’re willing to stand behind your principle of interventionism, as long as the people you don’t like can only do it hypothetically?

      • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        12 hours ago

        No. Real terrorism existing since decades can’t be justified by an attack that started last week.

        You asked:

        Or, in fact, was Iran really only attacked last week?

        I’d still like to hear your answer.

        • Aqarius@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          11 hours ago

          No, I’m not letting you change the subject. I told you, either there are laws, or there are no laws. If you support humanitarian intervention, then whether by jet or by rifle shouldn’t matter.

          • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            11 hours ago

            No, I’m not letting you change the subject.

            Um, I’ve been wanting you to answer a question you yourself raised here. So if at all, blame yourself for changing the subject. Why are you wriggling like an eel so hard about a question you posted yourself?

            • Aqarius@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              10 hours ago

              Because it was a rhetorical question, posed in callout of your bad faith argument. It’s entirely irrelevant. It can even be “yes”, as you claim it: Would you approve a humanitarian intervention, by Iran, in Israel, in 2024 CE, to force the IDF withdrawal to the 1967 borders, prosecuted through the gaggle of militias they actually have access to, granting that Israel will bomb Iran last week.

              You’re the interventionist here, make your argument.

              • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                8 hours ago

                For a “rhetorical question”, you seem to find it awfully hard to answer. Normally, the one asking a rhetorical question has a clear answer to it. But yet again, a lot of text but no answer to the question you raised yourself. Why are you becoming so defensive?

                • Aqarius@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  7 hours ago

                  I gave you an answer. Shit, I’m giving you your answer: yes. I don’t see how that helps your case, but have at it:

                  Would you approve a humanitarian intervention, by Iran, in Israel, in 2024 CE, to force the IDF withdrawal to the 1967 borders, prosecuted through the gaggle of militias they actually have access to, granting that Israel will bomb Iran last week.

                  • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    6 hours ago

                    Shit, I’m giving you your answer: yes.

                    I’m not interested in my answer, I want to know what you think. Do you also think it is yes?

                    Would you approve a humanitarian intervention, by Iran, in Israel, in 2024 CE, to force the IDF withdrawal to the 1967 borders, prosecuted through the gaggle of militias they actually have access to, granting that Israel will bomb Iran last week.

                    I don’t think the fact that Israel is going to bomb Iran in 2026 is relevant for justifying a humanitarian intervention in 2024. That I would instead see as a justification for Iran attacking Israel shortly before said attack in line of a preemptive attack (fending of an imminent attack). For a humanitarian intervention, the motif is to end the violation of human rights.

                    Given that in this case, Iran wouldn’t have access to the US carrier group or two from the other hypothetical example, but rather the same financially dependent religiously fanatical fighters as in reality (I presume?), I’d ask how the indiscriminate terrorism against Israelis we see in reality from these groups would help achieve the goal that wants to act as a justification for these actions? Sure, Irani-instructed groups that would target the IDF and other “legitimate” targets specifically which are responsible for said violations of human rights, could be considered legitimate. That is, if in that hypothetical world, just like the other example, Iran wouldn’t actually have the desire to simply eliminate Israel and wouldn’t be one of the key drivers in said conflict. A huge factor for this personal legitimisation would be if it actually could end the violation of human rights and not just add up to it. And here, the hypothetical Iran with the carrier groups would be far more effective (and hence legitimised) than the hypothetical Iran that enables some militias to indiscriminately fire makeshift rockets across the border, hoping to hit something meaningful.