The aggression is coming from Europe, which wishes to re-imperialize Russia like they did in the 90s. That’s the goal of Europe, and so Europe should stand down.
Again, doesn’t this become a rubber band excuse for any Russian military move? Or are there things Russia could do that would not be justified?
Secondly, Russia has no reason to want to annex Ukraine. Why would they?
Do you recognize the two facts that Russian leadership considers the Ukrainians as part of the Russian nation, and that their main stated purpose with the conflict is to bring Russians under the Russian state? I’m not saying they for sure would attack further, but do you recognize that such a conclusion could be drawn from these facts?
Russia did explore all avenues to avoid war.
Is this a factual statement or your opinion? I don’t agree with it factually, I think Russian diplomacy is a lot more competent than this.
The Minsk agreements both failed, and Russia waited 8 years to join the civil war
Just to be clear, Russian forces were involved in the annexation of Crimea, as well as the the conflict before 2022. But in 2022 they launched a full scale invasion. So this is not true. See e.g. this report,
In the months since, Putin has adjusted his account of what happened. He initially denied Russian troops were providing security for the referendum, but later acknowledged special forces had been deployed.
Russian soldiers who took part have been given state medals with the citation “For returning Crimea”, which give the starting date of the operation as Feb. 20, before Yanukovich was ousted.
here’s a bunch compiled by @yogthos@lemmy.ml
Thanks! I think the best would be if you point out a particular example with a well-established factual basis which forms a clear example of the kind of violent oppression that would justify an invasion. The list you posted has sources of different quality, dead links and contradictory statements, and I would hate to investigate only bad examples on the list to base my understanding on.
I really want to interrogate my view on this in good faith, so I’d like to steelman your point as much as possible. If I choose a handful of examples from your list, and they are all bad, that would come as a bad faith or straw man argument I think.
You seem to be under the impression that Russia hasn’t already tried diplomacy. Europe doesn’t care about that, they are dominated by finance capital and will use any trick in the book to continue. Russia tried diplomacy over and over again, through Minsk agreements, through other means, and yet the west and Ukraine broke them every time.
As for the annexation of Crimea, this was done with the consent of Crimea, and as such Crimea was spared from the civil war.
As for the links, they are compiled from largely western sources, and as such are going to contain western framing of actual facts, which is why they are contradictory. The facts are what are important, so please read them accordingly. If the links are dead, let me know which ones are and I’ll take them off.
You seem to be under the impression that Russia hasn’t already tried diplomacy.
Not at all, I just think that war fucking sucks for the working class and betrays that the elite has failed at diplomacy - on both sides.
As for the links, they are compiled from largely western sources, and as such are going to contain western framing of actual facts, which is why they are contradictory. The facts are what are important, so please read them accordingly. If the links are dead, let me know which ones are and I’ll take them off.
You’ve posted 60+ links, no way I can go through them all. If the sources are not necessarily factual, and they contradict eachother, the list isn’t really useful for me in terms of what I’ve suggested, i.e. a key example of indisputable fact (your words) that I can use to revisit my view of the ethnic cleansing in East Ukraine.
The sources I can find myself say that there is no evidence of such a thing, but I might very well live in a propaganda bubble - could you help me find a clear example of a documented, indisputable fact in the form of a text that I can start with?
Further, you seem to have missed the questions of the previous posts, so let me restate them. I think they’re important for me to understand your position.
Can you name an example of an aggressive action Russia could take against a European country that would not be justified according to your worldview?
Can you see how the messaging from the Russian leadership could lead to the conclusion that the Ukrainian nation is at fundamental danger of being erased by the Russian state? You don’t have to agree that that is what they intend, but I’m curious if you can see things from both sides (not implying both sides are equally valid)
War sucks, and is a tragedy. That’s why figuring out what the best course of action is is important. How should the war end? How can it end?
As for the links, I gave you one pretty comprehensive one, and a bunch of sub-topics with around 10 links each. If you’re seeking ethnic repressions, that narrows it down to 10-20.
As for Russia taking actions I wouldn’t think are justified, I feel you are moving this into a question of morality, rather than a materialist analysis of the war and where it’s going, how it started, etc. Rather than fish for hypotheticals, it’s important to focus on the concrete. As for the question of Ukrainians feeling as though Ukraine is to be erased, I believe a good amount feel that way, especially due to how Kiev is framing the issue. Even then, Kiev is resorting to kidnapping people off the street and desertions are in the six figures.
War sucks, and is a tragedy. That’s why figuring out what the best course of action is is important. How should the war end? How can it end?
Exactly. Can over should, I think. It’s clear that Ukraine can surrender its territory and possibly install a Russia-friendly government, that should end the current conflict.
But what could or should Russia do to end the current conflict?
As for the links, I gave you one pretty comprehensive one, and a bunch of sub-topics with around 10 links each. If you’re seeking ethnic repressions, that narrows it down to 10-20.
Which one is the comprehensive one, and which 10-20 are the ethnic repression ones? I’m not being facetious here, I just can’t find out what these links are supposed to convey.
Let me be clear, the US are imperialist fucks, the EU is a neoliberal austerity machine, Ukraine has major corruption issues. I agree.
But I’m still really trying to pop whatever propaganda bubble I’m living in. I base my view on reality on multiple independent sources who are able to fully criticise US, NATO, EU, Ukraine and Israel, but are also fully able to criticise Russia, China, Iran and whoever else. I think that’s the only way to get the facts straight. Not saying that these sources are not biased, but by checking primary sources and cross-referencing multiple reports I should be able to get something close to the facts.
But this method doesn’t work with your statements and sources so far. Should I change my method? Or did I misunderstand something? You seem incapable of making or accepting any negative statement about Russia in this context, which to me is a big red flag that maybe it’s you who’s in the propaganda bubble. Sources that disagree with your view seem to be rejected, sources that agree with your view are accepted. Shouldn’t it sort of be the other way around?
But I’m really open to revisiting this view based on sources like those mentioned above, so please help me.
Ukraine can give up the 4 oblasts and install a neutral government. Russia is ending the war the only way that will prevent future war, by carrying this one out to the end. Russia has the cards, this is not a moral problem but a material one.
As for the comprehensive one, I sent you a documentary before sending the rest of the links. Just watch that one if you want, or start reading multiple links so you can get a better picture. You can start with the “fascism” section if you want to see the origins of the Banderite movement in Ukraine, or go to the war crimes section to see that in action.
As for criticizing Russia, China, and Iran, I both can do so and don’t see how it’s relevant to the topic at hand. I support China as a socialist state that really doesn’t have nearly as much to criticize anyways, and I critically support both Iran and Russia against imperialist aggression, even if they aren’t socialist, as them contesting imperialism weakens the primary global obstacle to socialism.
My primary concern is creating a better world through concrete means, not through what “should be.” The only way forward is for imperialism to end, which means NATO as an organization either crumbles or is a shadow of its former self, the US and Europe pivot from imperialist economies to socialist (presumably after revolution), and the periphery gets to develop more.
What is your thesis? You seem to be trying to get me to consider other things, but to what end? Just to learn more for yourself? In that case, the links should be a great start, not a comprehensive view. There’s no magic bullet to getting rid of western propaganda all in one swoop, it took me many years to pivot to supporting socialist states even after beginning to identify as a socialist. This takes a lot of effort in reading theory, history, and talking with leftists, be it in real life or even online, following the news, etc.
Again, doesn’t this become a rubber band excuse for any Russian military move? Or are there things Russia could do that would not be justified?
Do you recognize the two facts that Russian leadership considers the Ukrainians as part of the Russian nation, and that their main stated purpose with the conflict is to bring Russians under the Russian state? I’m not saying they for sure would attack further, but do you recognize that such a conclusion could be drawn from these facts?
Is this a factual statement or your opinion? I don’t agree with it factually, I think Russian diplomacy is a lot more competent than this.
Just to be clear, Russian forces were involved in the annexation of Crimea, as well as the the conflict before 2022. But in 2022 they launched a full scale invasion. So this is not true. See e.g. this report,
Thanks! I think the best would be if you point out a particular example with a well-established factual basis which forms a clear example of the kind of violent oppression that would justify an invasion. The list you posted has sources of different quality, dead links and contradictory statements, and I would hate to investigate only bad examples on the list to base my understanding on.
I really want to interrogate my view on this in good faith, so I’d like to steelman your point as much as possible. If I choose a handful of examples from your list, and they are all bad, that would come as a bad faith or straw man argument I think.
You seem to be under the impression that Russia hasn’t already tried diplomacy. Europe doesn’t care about that, they are dominated by finance capital and will use any trick in the book to continue. Russia tried diplomacy over and over again, through Minsk agreements, through other means, and yet the west and Ukraine broke them every time.
As for the annexation of Crimea, this was done with the consent of Crimea, and as such Crimea was spared from the civil war.
As for the links, they are compiled from largely western sources, and as such are going to contain western framing of actual facts, which is why they are contradictory. The facts are what are important, so please read them accordingly. If the links are dead, let me know which ones are and I’ll take them off.
Not at all, I just think that war fucking sucks for the working class and betrays that the elite has failed at diplomacy - on both sides.
You’ve posted 60+ links, no way I can go through them all. If the sources are not necessarily factual, and they contradict eachother, the list isn’t really useful for me in terms of what I’ve suggested, i.e. a key example of indisputable fact (your words) that I can use to revisit my view of the ethnic cleansing in East Ukraine.
The sources I can find myself say that there is no evidence of such a thing, but I might very well live in a propaganda bubble - could you help me find a clear example of a documented, indisputable fact in the form of a text that I can start with?
Further, you seem to have missed the questions of the previous posts, so let me restate them. I think they’re important for me to understand your position.
War sucks, and is a tragedy. That’s why figuring out what the best course of action is is important. How should the war end? How can it end?
As for the links, I gave you one pretty comprehensive one, and a bunch of sub-topics with around 10 links each. If you’re seeking ethnic repressions, that narrows it down to 10-20.
As for Russia taking actions I wouldn’t think are justified, I feel you are moving this into a question of morality, rather than a materialist analysis of the war and where it’s going, how it started, etc. Rather than fish for hypotheticals, it’s important to focus on the concrete. As for the question of Ukrainians feeling as though Ukraine is to be erased, I believe a good amount feel that way, especially due to how Kiev is framing the issue. Even then, Kiev is resorting to kidnapping people off the street and desertions are in the six figures.
Exactly. Can over should, I think. It’s clear that Ukraine can surrender its territory and possibly install a Russia-friendly government, that should end the current conflict.
But what could or should Russia do to end the current conflict?
Which one is the comprehensive one, and which 10-20 are the ethnic repression ones? I’m not being facetious here, I just can’t find out what these links are supposed to convey.
Let me be clear, the US are imperialist fucks, the EU is a neoliberal austerity machine, Ukraine has major corruption issues. I agree.
But I’m still really trying to pop whatever propaganda bubble I’m living in. I base my view on reality on multiple independent sources who are able to fully criticise US, NATO, EU, Ukraine and Israel, but are also fully able to criticise Russia, China, Iran and whoever else. I think that’s the only way to get the facts straight. Not saying that these sources are not biased, but by checking primary sources and cross-referencing multiple reports I should be able to get something close to the facts.
But this method doesn’t work with your statements and sources so far. Should I change my method? Or did I misunderstand something? You seem incapable of making or accepting any negative statement about Russia in this context, which to me is a big red flag that maybe it’s you who’s in the propaganda bubble. Sources that disagree with your view seem to be rejected, sources that agree with your view are accepted. Shouldn’t it sort of be the other way around?
But I’m really open to revisiting this view based on sources like those mentioned above, so please help me.
Ukraine can give up the 4 oblasts and install a neutral government. Russia is ending the war the only way that will prevent future war, by carrying this one out to the end. Russia has the cards, this is not a moral problem but a material one.
As for the comprehensive one, I sent you a documentary before sending the rest of the links. Just watch that one if you want, or start reading multiple links so you can get a better picture. You can start with the “fascism” section if you want to see the origins of the Banderite movement in Ukraine, or go to the war crimes section to see that in action.
As for criticizing Russia, China, and Iran, I both can do so and don’t see how it’s relevant to the topic at hand. I support China as a socialist state that really doesn’t have nearly as much to criticize anyways, and I critically support both Iran and Russia against imperialist aggression, even if they aren’t socialist, as them contesting imperialism weakens the primary global obstacle to socialism.
My primary concern is creating a better world through concrete means, not through what “should be.” The only way forward is for imperialism to end, which means NATO as an organization either crumbles or is a shadow of its former self, the US and Europe pivot from imperialist economies to socialist (presumably after revolution), and the periphery gets to develop more.
What is your thesis? You seem to be trying to get me to consider other things, but to what end? Just to learn more for yourself? In that case, the links should be a great start, not a comprehensive view. There’s no magic bullet to getting rid of western propaganda all in one swoop, it took me many years to pivot to supporting socialist states even after beginning to identify as a socialist. This takes a lot of effort in reading theory, history, and talking with leftists, be it in real life or even online, following the news, etc.