It’s shocking to hear interviews with people on the streets. With most countries it seems that there is some separation between the actions of the state and general consensus amongst the people. But with Israelis it seems they mostly gleefully celebrate the genocide, and it seems like they genuinely enjoy coming up with ideas to torture and murder Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims.
82% was in favour of ethnically cleansing Gaza. Instead of addressing the sources of all problems: the institutional apartheid and heavy military censorship as well educational indoctrination.
Israel is not a democracy, no matter how many may attempt to tell that — because not everyone living there can partially participate without:
fearing being killed everyday
being subject to severe and rigid checks by police that aren’t even their own, in their own country. ACAB, but cops you can’t even halfassedly trust are worse.
worse access to healthcare due to racism
roads and public transit being segregated and the Palestinian ones often having long detours
risking their own stores and houses being bulldozed, put on fire, or being shot at by imperialist colonists
education being chauvinist: people are taught to love the land they stole from Palestinians and to hate the people they stole land from
no Right to Return while “aliyah” which is the same, is allowed
fascists being supported and allowed to kill dissidents
The list goes on. It’s pointless to hate one people; but it has a point to criticise the institutionalised hatred, the system behind this apartheid.
By those criteria, many western countries only became democracies in the mid-20th century. Insititutional discrimination and disenfranchisement of groups is common in what is commonly called “democracies”.
From ancient Athens to western countries without women’s suffrage, even up to pre-civil rights USA, “democracy” has rarely required the fair and equal participation of all citizens, and only radical leftists take it to require fair and equal participation of all residents.
Israel is not special. They are a forward base of white supremacy. Look at any predominantly white nation and how xenophobic they get because some of the organised crime is done by brown people now. Put any western European nation under the same kinds of pressures as Israel and they’d fire up the gas chambers.
I say this not to excuse genocide or discrimination, but to advise you to pull the weed out by the root. Israel is a liberal democracy just like your country, and what does that say about your country?
the head of state is above the supreme court, half the population in the territory they claim (Google Israel map in Hebrew), and is currently conducting a literal holocaust.
If you think that’s bad, you should see the UK in 1943. Or France in 1930. Or the US in 1850. Or the Netherlands in 1947. Or ancient Athens in 420 BCE.
Democracies have regularly committed genocide of non-citizen subjects who made up a majority of the territory they claim.
I like how I put it in another comment in this thread; when people are talking about how dangerous a sword is and only talk about its blade, then it is good to say “what about the hilt”?
Israel is part of the west, intimately connected militarily, financially, politically, culturally, and historically. We live in an empire of which Israel is a frontier outpost. The logics that drive Israel are the same that drive our societies. Insisting on a separation between Israel and democratic countries is at best ignorant outrage and at worst setting up Israel as the antisemitic scapegoat so white people can dodge blame.
It’s very telling that you’d accuse them of being pro genocide because they criticised liberalism, while yourself ignoring genocides committed by liberal democacries because they’re in the past.
The fact that you don’t like them doesn’t change the fact that Israel (and Russia, for that matter) are just liberal democracies doing normal liberal democracy things.
That is different from how the word “democracy” has been used throughout human history, but sure.
And it is whataboutism, in the sense that people are talking about a sword as if the blade is the only part that matters, and I am asking them “what about the hilt”? Categorically refusing any “what about”-type statements is called obsession.
If you want to stop this holocaust, and the far greater ones that will follow as climate change makes large regions uninhabitable and western nations release their swarms of autonomous drones on migrants, then you have to zoom out and understand the whole picture.
Israel is not a mere local puppet government installed for neocolonial profiteering, it is an extension of the west. Every western nation is rotten and genocidal, and that is why they’ve bonded so thoroughly with Israel. To give up Israel is to give up white supremacy, and that isn’t something any white billionaire is ready to do.
So if you fight Israel, you also fight the west. Prepare for that, and pick your targets accordingly. It’s usually more effective to go for softer targets than hypermilitarized Israel. The Palestine Action heroes that targeted British planes understood that, as did the UK judge that decided to pull out all the stops to punish them as hard as possible to disincentivize similar awareness.
It’s shocking to hear interviews with people on the streets. With most countries it seems that there is some separation between the actions of the state and general consensus amongst the people. But with Israelis it seems they mostly gleefully celebrate the genocide, and it seems like they genuinely enjoy coming up with ideas to torture and murder Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims.
82% was in favour of ethnically cleansing Gaza. Instead of addressing the sources of all problems: the institutional apartheid and heavy military censorship as well educational indoctrination.
Israel is not a democracy, no matter how many may attempt to tell that — because not everyone living there can partially participate without:
The list goes on. It’s pointless to hate one people; but it has a point to criticise the institutionalised hatred, the system behind this apartheid.
By those criteria, many western countries only became democracies in the mid-20th century. Insititutional discrimination and disenfranchisement of groups is common in what is commonly called “democracies”.
From ancient Athens to western countries without women’s suffrage, even up to pre-civil rights USA, “democracy” has rarely required the fair and equal participation of all citizens, and only radical leftists take it to require fair and equal participation of all residents.
Israel is not special. They are a forward base of white supremacy. Look at any predominantly white nation and how xenophobic they get because some of the organised crime is done by brown people now. Put any western European nation under the same kinds of pressures as Israel and they’d fire up the gas chambers.
I say this not to excuse genocide or discrimination, but to advise you to pull the weed out by the root. Israel is a liberal democracy just like your country, and what does that say about your country?
“liberal democracy just like your own”
in no shape or form is Israel a democracy.
the head of state is above the supreme court, half the population in the territory they claim (Google Israel map in Hebrew), and is currently conducting a literal holocaust.
It’s not and never was a democracy.
If you think that’s bad, you should see the UK in 1943. Or France in 1930. Or the US in 1850. Or the Netherlands in 1947. Or ancient Athens in 420 BCE.
Democracies have regularly committed genocide of non-citizen subjects who made up a majority of the territory they claim.
So you’re saying that Israel is a backwards country stuck in the barbaric past? Because yeah, it is.
Look at the right wing of your country and tell me again if it’s in the past.
Whataboutism, even though you’re not wrong.
Point still stands
I like how I put it in another comment in this thread; when people are talking about how dangerous a sword is and only talk about its blade, then it is good to say “what about the hilt”?
Israel is part of the west, intimately connected militarily, financially, politically, culturally, and historically. We live in an empire of which Israel is a frontier outpost. The logics that drive Israel are the same that drive our societies. Insisting on a separation between Israel and democratic countries is at best ignorant outrage and at worst setting up Israel as the antisemitic scapegoat so white people can dodge blame.
Guess hitler was alright because think about athens 2500 years ago amirite
You think all those other places are crazy? You should check out what Israel is doing RIGHT NOW.
Gold level mental gymnastics, tho. German judge loved the dismount!
yhea, those arguments are bullshit.
If we were talking about some issues with democracies, yhea, that would be a valid conversations, but this is some bullshit progenicidal whataboutism
It’s very telling that you’d accuse them of being pro genocide because they criticised liberalism, while yourself ignoring genocides committed by liberal democacries because they’re in the past.
The fact that you don’t like them doesn’t change the fact that Israel (and Russia, for that matter) are just liberal democracies doing normal liberal democracy things.
please point me to where I denied past atrocities?
just because Israel calls itself a democracy and pays US politicians to repeat that lie doesn’t make it true.
Israel is not a democracy.
again, half the population aren’t considered people. and are currently being genicided
same level of democracy as Nazi Germany
would you call Nazi Germany a liberal democracy?
Any country that gives its Übermenschen fair elections is a democracy. The 19th century USA, 20th century South Africa, and yes, 21st century Israel.
Nazi Germany did not give its Übermenschen elections, so it was not a democracy.
If you want a good government that doesn’t genocide disenfranchised minorities, you have to aim higher than just being a democracy.
if only an ingroup is allowed to vote then it isn’t a democracy, despite what they claim.
I hope it is only a semantic discussion rather than whataboutism or a distraction from the ongoing holocaust.
That is different from how the word “democracy” has been used throughout human history, but sure.
And it is whataboutism, in the sense that people are talking about a sword as if the blade is the only part that matters, and I am asking them “what about the hilt”? Categorically refusing any “what about”-type statements is called obsession.
If you want to stop this holocaust, and the far greater ones that will follow as climate change makes large regions uninhabitable and western nations release their swarms of autonomous drones on migrants, then you have to zoom out and understand the whole picture.
Israel is not a mere local puppet government installed for neocolonial profiteering, it is an extension of the west. Every western nation is rotten and genocidal, and that is why they’ve bonded so thoroughly with Israel. To give up Israel is to give up white supremacy, and that isn’t something any white billionaire is ready to do.
So if you fight Israel, you also fight the west. Prepare for that, and pick your targets accordingly. It’s usually more effective to go for softer targets than hypermilitarized Israel. The Palestine Action heroes that targeted British planes understood that, as did the UK judge that decided to pull out all the stops to punish them as hard as possible to disincentivize similar awareness.