The beautiful thing about anarchism is it’s a space for hundreds of differing viewpoints (so long as they’re centered on non-hierarchical structures).
That said, I at no point mentioned force or violence in anarchist production ownership. Also where in my comment is there “keeping people out of a factory by force?” Having say over the day to day operations for the place you work is pretty typical of syndicalism, at least.
The beautiful thing about anarchism is it’s a space for hundreds of differing viewpoints (so long as they’re centered on non-hierarchical structures).
The beautiful thing of maths is that there are an infinite amount of numbers between 0 and 1 but none of them are 2. Hierarchy of worker-owners over non-owners is unjust.
That said, I at no point mentioned force or violence in anarchist production ownership. Also where in my comment is there “keeping people out of a factory by force?”
What else do you mean by “owning” a thing? In capitalism, it means you socially deserve to have people punish others on your behalf for using it in a way you don’t consent to. Workers owning the means of production is contrasted against capital owners (bourgeoisie, aristocracy, church, etc.) owning the means of production; it doesn’t re-examine ownership as a relation.
This is why state capitalism is such a natural outcome of Marxist thought: people expected ownership to continue, so all they had to convince people of is that the state represents the workers now. Hence also the prometheanism of state capitalist nations; since workers own the land, exploitation is still natural and convenient.
Having say over the day to day operations for the place you work is pretty typical of syndicalism, at least.
Yeah, and syndicalists are often hierarchical towards scabs and non-workers.
When I say “ownership,” which is a messy word yes, I mean right to consensus on operations. There is no real world without pushback, so that probably does involve defense against forces looking to reclaim it in a capitalist capacity.
That doesn’t negate the rights of “outsiders” to also co-influence or join in a democratic fashion in the context of wider community.
I think, like in another sub-thread with another commenter, there is a fuzzy line between theory and reality that can get confused in anarchist discussions and that may have also happened here for both of us.
In genuine interest of further understanding your viewpoint (in a non-antagonistic way), how do you envision just and sustainable production in this context? What does fairness look like? How does it operate? And, if possible, how do we get there?
These aren’t rhetorical or “gotchas,” just interested in widening my perspective if you so choose to share your time :)
The beautiful thing about anarchism is it’s a space for hundreds of differing viewpoints (so long as they’re centered on non-hierarchical structures).
That said, I at no point mentioned force or violence in anarchist production ownership. Also where in my comment is there “keeping people out of a factory by force?” Having say over the day to day operations for the place you work is pretty typical of syndicalism, at least.
The beautiful thing of maths is that there are an infinite amount of numbers between 0 and 1 but none of them are 2. Hierarchy of worker-owners over non-owners is unjust.
What else do you mean by “owning” a thing? In capitalism, it means you socially deserve to have people punish others on your behalf for using it in a way you don’t consent to. Workers owning the means of production is contrasted against capital owners (bourgeoisie, aristocracy, church, etc.) owning the means of production; it doesn’t re-examine ownership as a relation.
This is why state capitalism is such a natural outcome of Marxist thought: people expected ownership to continue, so all they had to convince people of is that the state represents the workers now. Hence also the prometheanism of state capitalist nations; since workers own the land, exploitation is still natural and convenient.
Yeah, and syndicalists are often hierarchical towards scabs and non-workers.
When I say “ownership,” which is a messy word yes, I mean right to consensus on operations. There is no real world without pushback, so that probably does involve defense against forces looking to reclaim it in a capitalist capacity.
That doesn’t negate the rights of “outsiders” to also co-influence or join in a democratic fashion in the context of wider community.
I think, like in another sub-thread with another commenter, there is a fuzzy line between theory and reality that can get confused in anarchist discussions and that may have also happened here for both of us.
In genuine interest of further understanding your viewpoint (in a non-antagonistic way), how do you envision just and sustainable production in this context? What does fairness look like? How does it operate? And, if possible, how do we get there?
These aren’t rhetorical or “gotchas,” just interested in widening my perspective if you so choose to share your time :)