The 1% how much taxes they pay
You’re too generous for not making it a yes/no question
Numerous military buses, trucks, armored vehicles, and tanks being burned by the “peaceful” protesters. Sometimes the soldiers were allowed to escape, and sometimes they were brutally killed by the protesters. Numerous protesters were armed with Molotov cocktails and even guns.
The official report of the Chinese government from 1989 (translated here) shows that more than 1000 military and police vehicles were burned by rioters. And 200+ soldiers and policemen were murdered. Just imagine how much restraint the military and the police had shown.
Wait, how could the protesters kill so many soldiers? Because, until the very end, Chinese soldiers were unarmed. Most of the times, they didn’t even have helmets or batons.
What exactly happened in Beijing in 1989 that lead to this bloody affair?
The answer lies with two key figures: General Secretary Hu Yaobang, and Ambassador James Lilley.
Hu Yaobang was a member of the communist party of China and was one of the three major rightist-reformers that set China on the path its on today, the other two being Zhao Ziyang, and Deng Xiaoping respectively. Hu Yaobang as a reformer was also a spokesman for the intelligentsia and by the end of his life was well-beloved by the youth of China (we’re talking below 30 here, folks) therefore when he passed away the youth of China organized public grieving events with the largest occurring in Beijing. This is to say if Hu didn’t die from old age that year, none of this would’ve happened that year. This is to also say this event had nothing to do with “freedom” or “democracy” or whatever pigshit your favorite rush limburger propagandist spoon feeds you, it was a funeral service that was hijacked to unseat the Chinese government - which so coincidentally is a speciality of the agency the second person we’re talking about.
Ambassador James Lilley, the son of an american expat oil executive for Standard Oil, was a CIA agent operating in east Asia from 1951 to 1981 with little officially known about him (I know for a fact he’s fucked around Korea and Laos, so it’s not a stretch to say he’s likely been involved with every conflict that occured during his official career). In his “post” CIA career he’s acted as a diplomatic liason to the provice of Taiwan, a teacher to future state department ghouls, and “helped” South Korea end its military dicatorship by helping the military win the election “democratically”, and abruptly five days after the death of General Secretary Hu Yaobang James Lilley was appointed as the US Ambassador to China by also former CIA ghoul and president of the United States George H. W. Bush. What an astounding coincidence.
And just a reminder. In communist China, you can be a pain in the ass by obstructing tanks trying to exist a parade, argue with the commander, then get rushed away by other normal people going “dude what the Hell’s your problem”
Lmao was just about to say, one of these is not like the other.
I do appreciate skepticism wherever applicable, but China keeps getting handed from one Dictatorship to another so it’s hard to see them as victims unless they make some effort to change in more ways than just economically. It also sounds like complete bullshit that the “armed and dangerous protestors” died in equal number to “unarmed and unhelmeted military personnel.” Like, for real? Those tanks in a line were made of cardboard?
Why not educate yourself instead of just regurgitating nonsense
ha, “rumble”. is it ever going to dawn on you that all your grayzone, jimmy dore, glenn greenwald, caitlin johnstone, et cetera bullshit that claims to be leftist is funded by right-wing billionaire peter thiel, and run out the same offices as trump’s “truth social”?
useful idiots indeed.
What does the site the content is hosted on have to do with the actual content which you obviously did not watch. Utter brain rot on display here. It’s an interview with the US puppet who started the protest and what she herself is saying about it. The fact that you didn’t address that and went off on an idiotic rant about rumble really says all we need to know about your intellectual capacity.
You useful idiots are going to be among the first against the wall to find out about China’s mercy I imagine. You’ll demand to fellate the firing squad beforehand.
When the People’s Liberation Army makes landfall on the western shores of North America, I will be here to greet them as heroes
idgi what are you trying to say here?
China hunts down useful idiots? All their firing squad members have penises? The Great Wall is used for executions?
Useful idiots believing CBS, NY Times, Reuters and BBC?
Did you even read your own articles or did you just cherry-pick quotes? For instance the conclusion of the BBC article:
There was no Tiananmen Square massacre, but there was a Beijing massacre.
The shorthand we often use of the “Tiananmen Square protests” of 1989 gives the impression that this was just a Beijing issue. It was not.
Protests occurred in almost every city in China (even in a town on the edge of the Gobi desert).
What happened in 1989 was by far the most widespread pro-democracy upheaval in communist China’s history. It was also by far the bloodiest suppression of peaceful dissent.
Thank you, very frustrated that I had to scroll so far down to find this with regard to the so-called Tiananmen Square “massacre”
Great job comrade, president XiJing Ping will personally give you an offer to be an officer in Uigyur internment camps.
WuMao.
You can tell the poster is American because they blame the government involved for all of these except the US, where they blamed the CIA.
You’re right, as an American I knew the specific government agency that overthrew foreign governments. But I don’t mean to imply that the U.S. government is blameless.
I agree with the sentiment, I was just amused that your bias was showing.
Saying the CIA isn’t indicative of bias
In context it does. That’s how I correctly guessed they were American.
…It really isn’t, but if that’s what you want to tell yourself, I really can’t stop you. It’s still incorrect either way.
They have an American bias because they are American therefore they could be more specific about the American centric piece of information. Your lack of literacy doesn’t change the definition of the word bias.
Silly internet troll, everybody the world over knows about the CIA American or not. But you do you.
I mean the CIA is the us government
No you see it was just a few bad apples.
The CIA is part of the US government.
Don’t ask OP about the use of prepositions
“Was there a massacre in Tiananmen Square?”
—“No.”
“Were people killed elsewhere in Beijing?”
—“…Ermh…”
“Ahem. I am asking you if people were killed in the area immediately surrounding Tiananmen Square, even if nobody was killed in the square itself.”
—“The protesters in Tiananmen Square left after negotiations with the PLA. There was no bloodshed in Tiananmen Square.”
“I understand that, but were people killed elsewhere in Beijing?”
—“Nowhere in Beijing were student protestors specifically targeted.”
“Well, were non-students targeted, and were any students injured or killed without being targeted?”
—“Hey did you know that the Three Gorges Dam is the world’s largest—”
“Gongchandang, my friend, I am begging you.”
—“…Force may have been used when provoked by attacks.”
“May force have also been used unprovoked? Could it have been that the protesters felt like they were provoked first, because you were sending tanks past the barricades that they’d put up?”
—“I mean… you know… uhh…”
“Gongchandang. Were you scared that the occupation of Beijing and the potential of a workers’ revolt would threaten the survival of socialism in China, by presenting a still-socialist alternative to your rule, because societal division particularly among the less politically literate could be (and was) exploited by outside forces?”
—“OUR YOUTH ARE VULNERABLE TO IMPERIALIST PROPAGANDA, OK‽ ALSO, TANK MAN DIDN’T GET RUN OVER. SEE. HE WAS PULLED AWAY BY A PASSERBY. NOT RUN OVER.”
The US about indigenous Americans.
Oh wait, they made hundreds of movies about killing them.
That really is one of the most absurd things about the American Empire. They’ll come and destroy your people, taint and corrupt your land with bones and blood, bomb you back into the stone age, and then make a trillion dollar budget film about how it made them feel sad. The othering is so powerful that emotions only exist within the walls of capital
But I wouldn’t blame this. The people making the movies hasn’t been in common with the crime.
imagine believing tiananmen square is in any way comparable to the rest of this list. OP showing their whole ass
Death to America
what do you mean 300 deaths isn’t in any way comparable to thousands/millions of deaths during the Holocaust, Aremnian genocide, Bengal famine, Operation Condor or Japanese occupation?
Found the Tankie
Smooth-brained western Chinese apologists is not what I was expecting from the future of the internet even 5 years ago. Our atrocities are totally cool, eh? Nice.
Atrocity propaganda is a real phenomenon used by westerners to inflate problems of non-western societies and deflate the genocides done by the west. You’ve fallen for it
yeah, next the internet will be defending Iraqi incubator babies or Saddam’s people-shredder.
also, very rude of you to assume im a mayo western cracker.
What is a western China? There’s only one China.
If you try act like a redditor and go “its what i call taiwan” then you’re literally bumbling around like a drunken dipshit who insists calling the United States “Northern Florida”. Although if we’re to make more accurate historical inference, it would be apt to say you’re the equivalent of those “The South Shall Rise Again” cross-burning confederate dipshits that never shut up about the massive L you took
They mean Chinese apologists from the west.
I for one am not apologizing for much of anything really. Mistakes have been made but the party has grown from that and critiques those. None of these are what these anti-chinese people are saying though
No, it is true. US tried to stir up some trouble and it didn’t work. That is import to remember the people that dies because of US greed
Hundreds, thousands, millions. It’s all the same because people died and the people that died weren’t white.
mao could give a kid cancer and youd spin it somehow, deluded
WuMao
But you are currently admitting it happened, right?
yeah buddy, ya got me. the cia’s attempt to overthrow the communist party of China failed, but succeeded in getting a few hundred people killed. not exactly the Holocaust libs love to claim it was
Death to America
Hand check
The 1989 Tian’anmen Square riots (天安门事件) were a CIA-backed attempt at a color revolution against the People’s Republic of China in 1989. Reservations over Deng Xiaoping’s reform and opening up policies sparked peaceful protests, which the CPC negotiated with, but soon a foreign-funded faction of students joined the protests and, due to their promotion by Western media, took over the protests and took them in an entirely different direction than what was originally envisioned.
[…]
As the protests were winding down and many protestors went home, the Chinese government sent unarmed PLA troops the clear the square of remaining protestors as the Beijing police was overwhelmed due to their sheer numbers throughout the city. On June 2, rioters burned and lynched unarmed soldiers trying to enter the square. The troops were initially unarmed, but were given weapons on June 3 after the students took some soldiers hostage. They were blocked from entering the square by crowds armed with petrol bombs, iron clubs, and Molotov cocktails. The rioters destroyed over 400 vehicles and destroyed a convoy of over 100 vehicles in western Beijing.
[…]
The riots in Beijing resulted in approximately 300 total deaths, including 36 students, 10 PLA soldiers, and 13 police officers. All of the deaths occurred outside of the square itself.
Imagine being retarded enough to actually believe such lazy propaganda. Tankies really are desperate enough to believe anything to validate their shitty failed ideology.
Honestly, I read the above article a few months ago, and I think it is a genuinely good article that I would recommend others read. It was written nine years after Tiananmen by Jay Mathews of the Washington Post, who was in Beijing during the protests; and the Columbia Journalism Review is a respected publication written by and for professional journalists. So the article is basically just trying to disspell the dumbing down and memeifying and misremembering and making-into-propaganda that happened with Tiananmen, and which honestly tends to happen with any major loss of life. No conspiracy theories, no denialism or claiming that “they had it coming”, just dispelling misconceptions. It’s good stuff.
I can’t speak for Davel’s other comment citing Prolewiki, though — I’m pretty skeptical to any website that tries to be Wikipedia but for X ideology.
In any case, this “butthurt report” feels pretty unfair, although I honestly did kinda roll my eyes at how Davel’s comment said “6 out of 7 ain’t bad”, that was kinda cringe… But basically, what I’m trying to say is that I wouldn’t fault someone for commenting under a “9/11 NEVER FORGET” post about the extent to which mismanagement and confusion contributed to the death toll of that, and likewise I wouldn’t fault someone for commenting under a Tiananmen Square post with more nuance about that event.
It’s not unreasonable to have skepticism of ProleWiki.
You might think Wikipedia lacks ideology or bias, but in my opinion it tends to have a Global North/Atlanticist bias. This is probably because of the place of its birth and the people who created it, like American libertarian Jimmy Wales, and the people who have managed it, like Katherine Maher, who has worked for National Democratic Institute and the Atlantic Council, and currently works for the U.S. State Dept.
And obviously the English language Wikipedia is generally going to have an anglo-Atlanticist point of view, as virtually all L1 English speakers and
mostmany L2 English speakers do.Honestly, I absolutely already believe that Wikipedia can be highly biased in those ways. The problem is really just with the liberal shaitan who whispers kapitalist propaganda into my ears. I should know better.
It’s silly to trust the testimony of a single journalist over the dozens of other journalists who were there. His conflicting report is the minority and for a reason. I’m not saying he’s lying, but it seems disingenuous to seek out anything that goes against the consensus. The evidence and the testimonies clearly point towards a government ordered massacre of civilians. If nothing happened like tankies claim, then the Chinese government would go to the extreme lengths that it does to deny the existence of the event entirely.
My fellow American, no u.
The Australian’s about their treatment of
aboriginesfirst nation AustraliansThe Irish about mother and baby homes.
China about Uyghurs
Didn’t a bunch of Muslim countries actually ask China about Uyghurs (and even visit Xinjiang) and they left unanimously content with the response?
Yes. The only country worried about it is the same one that’s actually killed millions of Muslims over the last 20 years
Israel or America?
Yes
They only did it to bring them democracy!
Well yeah, of course I’d trust the experts in genocide over countries that have no experience.
should be easy enough for you to provide a legitimate source to this claim.
please note the word “legitimate”
The other reply to this post provides a pretty legitimate source.
But, well, it’s not exactly hard to Google.
I bet they did according to Xi and the CCP, but not in reality.
Even if they did, they’re probably faking it because trade with China is more important to them than human rights, just like the US and Saudi Arabia or the other Western countries and the US…
“aborigines” is not a great word to use these days. It’s generally seen as pretty offensive to Indigenous Australians as it’s a bit dehumanising and comes from colinisers who treated people like animals.
Better to go with “First Nations people”, “Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people” or “Indigenous Australians.”
But yes, they’ve been treated (and in many cases continue to be treated) pretty horribly.
Thanks. I kinda knew it wasn’t great, but didn’t know the correct term.
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Russians about Crimea and Donbass
australia has much more shit going… like storing asylumseekers in some far away islands
The one that confuses me, is the statement about the Irish.
I guess you could say ask the Catholic church about Irish mother and baby homes. But the meme was doing nations.
Blaming the Catholic Church is a good way to start but the argument that Irish people were led astray by the Church is pretty much the same argument as those who seek to divorce the Wehrmacht from complicity in SS atrocities. In both cases the answer is that they shared vital infrastructure with each other and ranking officials could have stopped the excesses, which they had full knowledge of, if they’d have disagreed with it.
Ask them about their tax avoidance schemes for big tech
I don’t know if I would have used Tiananmen Square.
The Uighur re-education cities seems far more fitting.
Yeah tiananmen is such a meme at this point. You can tell when people base their entire politics on memes and don’t bother reading and searching on their own. Tiananmen is an issue they won’t step mentioning.
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I think the other comment on this thread addressed it pretty well: https://hexbear.net/comment/4003110
I’m pretty skeptical about taking political positions from memes, and when I’ve done my own research on this, I failed to find valid reasons that this issue should get the attention that the Internet gives it. There are many other issues that are worth my attention. This one isn’t.
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Plenty of sources provided in there (ny times, reuters, etc), but if you were the kind to examine evidence, you wouldn’t be here anyways.
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I love how you ignored everything in the article except what could possibly agree with your viewpoint. On your first quote, the link they cite does not exist anymore. In the video you linked, I hear gunshots but don’t see people running away from them. As someone from a country that saw unrest and shooting at protests, I can tell you that people immediately start running when they’re shot at, emptying the area. Not continue to March nonchalantly.
In the end, I want to conclude with saying that I didn’t deny that anyone died (although the comment I linked does seem to imply that. My apologies for not clarifying, as I was only using them to back up my opinion). What I said in the original comment is that it is not an issue worth my attention. I’ve seen and read about so many government rerpression, and this is far from being in the top 10. It’s an unnecessarily magnified issue.
Not even going to click on that, the domain tells me everything I need to know considering the topic we talk about!
I mean, it’s a variety of sourced quotes from respected journalists who were there. You probably should read them all, if only so you can point out to the Hexbears where they mention all the people who died in the area around the Square. The sources mostly say “no one got gunned down literally in the Square.”
In any case, it’s fucking weird to obsess over it. It’s like trying to give Biden crap about the Kent State Massacre while he’s rounding up all the Mormons.
Plenty of evidence cited there from multiple sources. You don’t have to open it, but the evidence is there shall you question it.
Abother user made a very good comment about this under my post, might be worth checking out!
I agree with that commenter. I do not claim that “nothing happened”. I said this in my earlier comments, that I just don’t think it’s a problem worth my attention.
Numerous military buses, trucks, armored vehicles, and tanks being burned by the “peaceful” protesters. Sometimes the soldiers were allowed to escape, and sometimes they were brutally killed by the protesters. Numerous protesters were armed with Molotov cocktails and even guns.
Sounds like a full blown insurrection.
I knew this was going to be the only one people tried to deny in this thread, but I didn’t figure it would be OP
Or the invasion of Vietnam… Or the annexation of Tibet… Or the bullying of Southeast Asian countries… Or the great leap forward… Or the communist land reforms… Or the anti counterrevolutionary campaigns
The CCP leaves you no end of really good options to pick here.
Never ask a Lemmy user where they’ve hidden the good posts.
One of these is not like the other
You’re right, asking a woman her age is not an atrocity
The Canadian government about the canadian indian residential school system
The Iran government about Salman Rushdie
The Mexican government about Ayotzinapas 43
The British government about their museums
The German government about their car manufacturers.
The Indian government about Aasif Sultan
The Russian government about how much the war in Ukraine should have lasted.
And many more…
Do let me know btw if you know of anymore of this.
Edit:
Aded russia
To be fair, Germans largely don’t deny what happened. Being a holocaust denier can even get you into prison. IHMO that is how you should handle such matters.
Meanwhile, denying other genocides gets you a mod spot on lemmy.ml apparently
Yes i know but i couldnt come up with a simmilar example about them. If you know of a better one about Germany do let me know and ill change it. Im being frendly about this btw, sorry if i sound condesending, thats not my intention.
Don’t ask the German government about smog control in diesel cars?
This sounds good, gonna use it.
Should probably be a german company instead of it‘s government
Never ask them where VW produces cars!
Maybe the point is that not all countries are equally bad and belong on the list
Don’t ask the German people what kind of porn is best.
Boy, the museums are really just the very tip of the iceberg for the Brits.
A list about things to not ask them for would be huge.
The Ukrainian Government, OUN.
The Lithuanian Government, what happened to the Jews.
How a person reacts to being asked about the version of these things most close to them is telling. If they get defensive and deny the event happened, I would hesitate to trust their opinion on other things. Clearly that person bases their opinions on what they want to be true rather than reality. That’s the kind of person whose ideology would likely lead to another event to be ashamed of. If, on the other hand, they admit it was a horrible thing and agree that people should be educated on it and that steps should be taken to prevent it from ever happening again, then I’m more likely to take their opinion seriously and believe that they can be part of the conversations we need to happen to create a better world.
