In Finnish we have “kissanristiäiset” (literally means a cat’s christening), which means some trivial and meaningless celebration/event.
In Finnish we have “kissanristiäiset” (literally means a cat’s christening), which means some trivial and meaningless celebration/event.
There’s a bunch of weird ones in Portuguese.
“While you’re bringing corn, I already ate the polenta” is brutal
Small note, this is Brazilian Portuguese 🇧🇷 (PT-BR), not European Portuguese 🇵🇹 (PT-PT). I never heard most of these. We do have the “farinha do mesmo saco” and “comer o pão que o diabo amassou” though.
One important detail is that those country-based labels are at most abstractions or geographical terms. “Brazilian Portuguese” and “European Portuguese” aren’t actual, well-defined dialects; what people actually speak is local, in both sides. (e.g. “Paulistano Portuguese”, “Alentejano Portuguese”, “Estremenho Portuguese”, you get the idea.)
This is relevant here because I wouldn’t be surprised if plenty Brazilians never heard some of those. For example, “um polaco de cada colônia” only makes sense in Paraná, Polish immigration here was large enough to make some people call other immigrants “Poles”, even Germans and Italians. So the “Poles from each colony” are usually people/things that you might think that are related, but have zero to do with each other.
You’re not wrong but the way I see it it’s a hierarchical term.
Portuguese - all Portuguese based languages Brazilian Portuguese - all Portuguese dialects in Brazil European Portuguese - all Portuguese dialects in Portugal Angolan Portuguese - all Portuguese dialects in Angola and so on…
I’m not expecting everyone to know every expression under the sun, but those are CLEARLY Brazilian-Portuguese based so I thought it best to clear it up because people just say Portuguese most times and I feel that creates some confusion.
Sorry for the long reply, I happen to enjoy this subject quite a bit.
The “hierarchy” breaks once you try to analyse it with no regards to governments, focusing solely on linguistic features (phonetic, phonology, syntax, and the expressions). Because of things like this:
I’m not informed enough on the dialects spoken in Africa to affirm anything about them, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that also applied there - for example, Portuguese as spoken in Luanda being actually closer to the one in Lisbon than the one in the Angolan countryside.
And it actually makes sense, when you think about the initial colonisation of Brazil - you had four initial settlements, most people were likely from southern Portugal, and each settlement would undergo independent dialect levelling.
Any hierarchy that we put here would eventually break, by the way. You get a bunch of wave innovations but their pattern usually ties large centres together, regardless of country, with rural varieties either adopting those features later or developing alternative ones. But if we must see it on a hierarchical way, the split wouldn’t follow country borders, it would be more like:
Note how the division actually lumps Alentejano and Algarviano alongside what you’d call BP, not EP. And note how it still breaks, for example the /ʃ/ coda in the northern half of Brazil was likely interference from Estremenho, even if both dialects would be relatively far from each other in the hierarchy.
That was a lot to take in indeed. I can’t speak for other dialects, but I can understand Azorean accent absolutely fine, same with Madeira. There are some idiomatic expressions here and there that I would maybe not understand but I would still clearly call it European Portuguese.
The same goes for Alentejo. They do use -ndo ending sometimes but I would still clearly call it mostly European Portuguese.
I don’t think this subject needs to be as complicated as you make it. Yes, if we deep dive we can look at things that way but I don’t really think that kind of discussion applies here, nor am I knowledgeable enough to engage with you on that hahah
I do love how passionate you are about it though!
At the end of the day what I mean is simply that any somewhat scientific “split” will not match the countries, making the labels near useless for a “hierarchy” (tree-like model) of sorts.
One important detail to consider is expectations - I’ve noticed that plenty speakers in Brazil tend to associate EP with specifically Estremenho, and in Portugal it seems to be that BP is mostly associated with Paulistano. But since those two diverge quite a bit from each other, this difference ends [incorrectly] extrapolated to some expectation of otherness and uniformity in “Portuguese as spoken there”.
Tendo dito isto, já que disse entender a variedade dos Açores: como classificaria a variedade deste vídeo - pt_PT ou pt_BR?
Thanks, and sorry - durante meus tempos de uni trabalhei com variedades locais (embora o foco fosse outro), então acabo falando um pouco demais do assunto, quando vem à tona.
Scientifically it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what makes EP or BP or others. Although maybe it could be done?
However, it’s easy to tell BP a part from others. If you mainly use “você” it’s BP. If you don’t use it, then you’d have to check other things I guess. Since, for instance, Portuguese from most African/Asian countries use “tu”.
Em relação ao vídeo, facilmente classificaria o vídeo como PT-BR. Apesar de não entender tudo, não só pelas expressões mas pela rapidez como é falado, consigo claramente perceber algumas expressões que dão características de Português do Brasil. Exemplos, a expressão “Aí eu falei”. O uso de “o cara”, “poxa” e outros. Não saberia dizer de que região do Brasil seria o sotaque/expressões, mas conseguia facilmente dizer que era do Brasil.
Edit: afinal até percebo melhor do que pensava. Tinha a velocidade do YouTube a 1.25x Voltando para 1x, ficou mais fácil de perceber.
Haven’t seen some of these before. Ones I particularly like are:
Wash your hands of [something] is also in American English, although I think more typically used when you were already involved in something then removed yourself from the situation
Another Bible reference; this one refers to Roman governor Pontius Pilate washing his hands to indicate being done with the issue of Jesus’s execution.
Oh right, I hadn’t thought about it!
Only a few of these - “comer o pão que o diabo amassou”, “vai ver se estou na esquina” - are used in Portugal, so they’re mostly used in Brasil.
The language hasn’t drifted all that much in between both countries during the last couple of hundred years but expressions seem to tend to be the first to drift away.
It also seems to me that expressions drift away faster than other aspects of the language. Perhaps due to their casual nature, or due to context. And they’re often extremely local, too - for example, I’ve heard nordestinos using “sacrifício de mundo” (lit. world sacrifice) to refer to difficult things, while folks here in Paraná practically never do it. While saying that something is “uma vaca no milharal” (a cow in the corn farm - wrecking everything with no regards or reason) usually outs the person as from a rural background.
For speakers from Portugal there’s an additional weird expression: pila is used here in Paraná as a completely innocent word for money, e.g. “dois pila” two bucks. (In PT I believe that it’s used as a slang for dick.)
You are correct on the pila thing, though it’s old fashioned and kinda children’s language.
Funilly enough and if I remember it correctly, a pila is a kind of throwable spear from the Roman times.
You might be into something here. The spear is pilum, and Portuguese reborrowed it as pilo. However Portuguese used to repurpose the gender change for specific types of something, specially for Latin neuter words: see ovo/ova, casco/casca, jarro/jarra, barco/barca. It’s possible that the slang appeared this way, with people referring to their dicks as a type of spear. (It’s kind of childish but fairly common; c.f. caralho from caraculum “small mast”)
There’s also another Latin pila meaning mortar, but it got inherited by Portuguese as pia “sink”.
(IIRC pila-as-money is from a politician, Raul Pilla.)
Alternative for “vai ver se estou na esquina” is “vai catar coquinho” (go gather little coconuts), I guess because it’s a silly, futile task?
I always said it as while you’re bringing the wheat I already ate the bread. But in my family we exaggerated it for effect: while you’re buying the wheat seed, I already shat the bread 😂
Like, “enquanto você tá comprando o trigo, já caguei o pão”? That’s hilarious!
Isso, e era competição entre meus irmãos pra exagerar ao máximo : tipo, enquanto você estava a caminho da loja pra comprar o trigo, eu já comi o pão, caguei, fiz composto com a merda e plantei mais trigo, etc, etc