Former President Barack Obama cautioned against ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war, warning that “all of us are complicit.”

“If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree,” he said in an excerpted interview with Pod Save America released Saturday.

  • masquenox@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Neither is Israel

    Israel is a white supremacist settler-colonialist state. End of story.

    multi-millennia

    Seventy years doesn’t qualify as “multi-millenia,” okay?

    • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Israel is a white supremacist settler-colonialist state. End of story.

      You can keep saying that but they aren’t white, and they are the original settlers of the area… Soooo not end of story, not even part of the story.

      Seventy years doesn’t qualify as “multi-millenia,” okay?

      Yeah but 3000 years is so…

      Maybe watch the video? Or read up on history? Like maybe look at the buildings Jewish people built there thousands of years ago that are still standing? And there’s the fact that they’ve been there the whole time? Sure there was a migration of Jewish people coming back after WW2, but the population didn’t go from 0. They were always there.

      In fact the Jewish population was the reason the white colonizers (the British ) left Israel in the late 40’s.

        • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Go watch the video. The Jewish population literally kicked them out. That’s literal facts, so I think you’re the idiotic bitch.

          Y’all really don’t want to educate yourselves on this and you just want to say it’s a super simple situation that you’ve already figured out.

          Or you’re just super racist like the other guy.

      • masquenox@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        but they aren’t white

        Say it louder. Bellow it from the rooftops so that every Jewish person in occupied Palestine can hear you - they aren’t “white” enough for you… just like your European ancestors insisted when they massacred Jewish people and drove them from their homes due to their rabid antisemitism. Show them that they are nothing but kapos to you, right-winger - show them that you will only support them as long as they are repressing brown people for you in the middle-east.

        Show them what true antisemitism looks like in the way that only you and your ilk can.

        Yeah but 3000 years is so

        Pulling 2930 years out of your arrse is not the magic trick you assume it to be.

        they’ve been there the whole time?

        Did you only figure out now that there have always been Jewish Palestinians in Palestine? Wait till you find out that the earth isn’t flat…

        • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I’m fucking Jewish you raging asshole. My ancestors are the ones that were massacred you absolute fucking disgrace of a human.

          Pulling 2930 years out of your arrse is not the magic trick you assume it to be.

          It’s not out my ass, it’s out of history.

          Did you only figure out now that there have always been Jewish Palestinians in Palestine? Wait till you find out that the earth isn’t flat…

          Okay so you understand that that proves you’re wrong right?

          But just fuck you. Stop trying to white wash me and my family you complete tool.

          • masquenox@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            I’m fucking Jewish you raging asshole.

            Good… now I can ask you directly - what does it feel like to play kapo for the very people that invented antisemitism?

            There’s something I need you to explain for me… have you or have you not noticed that all of Israel’s enablers - all the countries that have proven so fond of the idea of Israel including England, where antisemitic Christians invented Zionism - are literally countries with deep histories of white supremacism, colonialism and… drumroll, please… antisemitism?

            It’s not out my ass,

            Which part of…

            Pulling 2930 years out of your arrse is not the magic trick you assume it to be.

            …didn’t you understand the first time around?

            Stop trying to white wash

            Still not getting this, are you? Those white supremacists that are cheering Israel on with you? They will only see you as “white enough” as long as it suits them. When they inevitably abandon Israel because their favorite little white supremacist colonialist project has become a costly dead-end, you will witness them turn straight back into the overt antisemites they were before WW2 made overt antisemitism unfashionable.

            That’s who you share an ideological bed with.

            • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Just admit you’re anti semitic and you don’t want to have to go through that self realization.

              You’ve actively refused to admit it’s a complicated multi millennia situation, but then admitted that Israelites were there all along so the original colonizers were not them.

              Also

              They will only see you as “white enough” as long as it suits them.

              I don’t fuck with their racist ass shit either. I’m not white, it doesn’t matter if you or they are trying to white wash me and my fucking family. You racist piece of shit.

              • masquenox@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Not answering the question, huh? The people who created Israel and runs it to this very day learned their white supremacist colonialism from the best in the game - France, Germany, Britain and, of course, the US - I guess it’s just a pure coincidence that these countries, historical and traditional hotbeds of fundamentalist white supremacism and antisemitism, are also Israel’s most generous backers, eh?

                You don’t have to answer - it’s a question more and more people will be asking - and answering - no matter what you or your glorified Crusader state does.

                Just admit you’re anti semitic

                Don’t project your (pretty typical) right-wing self-hatred onto me… I’m not the one apologizing for oppressors and mass-murderers. You are.

                it’s a complicated

                There’s nothing complicated about white supremacist settler-colonialism - not for those who aren’t willing collaborators, anyway.

                that Israelites were there

                Yes, the Palestinians have been there for a very long time. You know… in Palestine.

                I don’t fuck with their racist ass shit either.

                Which part of…

                That’s who you share an ideological bed with.

                …didn’t you get the first time around?

                You literally share the same ideological bed as the kind of people who perpetrated the Holocaust (who, incidentally, also considered forcefully displacing European Jewish people to Palestine - perfectly in-line with the beliefs of the antisemitic originators of the ideology of Zionism).

                So yes… you are fully onboard with their “racist ass shit” white supremacism - their “racist ass shit” white supremacism is literally the only reason modern-day Israel can exist in the way that it does today. You didn’t think that Israel funds it’s vast murder-toy collection by selling the water it steals from Palestinians, did you?

                • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  I’ve already answered your “question” and it’s based on a racist false premise you’re continuing to perpetuate because you can’t reconcile your own racist beliefs being racist. So you pin up this big strawman that I never said so your gymnastics can suit yourself.

                  Also

                  Yes, the Palestinians have been there for a very long time. You know… in Palestine.

                  You seem to bitch a lot about “white supremacist colonizers”, but calling it Palestine is literally the white supremacist colonizer name for it. That’s what the Roman empire decided to rename it after they took it over.

                  • masquenox@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    I’ve already answered your “question”

                    No, you haven’t. Here… I’ll repost it to shake up your memory.

                    Good… now I can ask you directly - what does it feel like to play kapo for the very people that invented antisemitism?

                    There’s something I need you to explain for me… have you or have you not noticed that all of Israel’s enablers - all the countries that have proven so fond of the idea of Israel including England, where antisemitic Christians invented Zionism - are literally countries with deep histories of white supremacism, colonialism and… drumroll, please… antisemitism?

                    racist beliefs being racist.

                    Accusing everyone that’s pointing out your white supremacist beliefs of “reverse racism” hasn’t worked out that well for any of your other right-wing brethren… but maybe you’ll be the exception, right?

                    the Roman empire decided

                    White supremacist ideology didn’t exist back when the Roman empire was a thing - I guess we can also tack “doesn’t understand what white supremacism is” to your PragerU-level lack of historical understanding, eh?

            • SwampYankee@mander.xyz
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              1 year ago

              There’s something I need you to explain for me… have you or have you not noticed that all of Israel’s enablers - all the countries that have proven so fond of the idea of Israel including England, where antisemitic Christians invented Zionism - are literally countries with deep histories of white supremacism, colonialism and… drumroll, please… antisemitism?

              Arabs were against Israel and also against having Britain & France controlling colonial assets in their countries. The USSR saw them as valuable allies in dismantling colonial empires to make way for expanding Soviet influence. Western alignment with Israel didn’t fully materialize except with the context of the Cold War. It really doesn’t have a whole lot to do with ideological concerns beyond the surface level. It’s realpolitik. The USSR was even pro-Zionist for a hot minute when they thought the kibbutzim were going to take off.

              Also, this…

              England, where antisemitic Christians invented Zionism

              … is fucking stupid. Jews have been returning to Zion for as long as there has been a diaspora.

              • masquenox@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                is fucking stupid.

                …and here you manage to prove just one thing - that the only thing “complicating” any of this is the batshit fairy tale pro-Israeli propaganda that has been regurgitated for you for decades now. Even Israeli historians demolishes your absurd alt-history.

                Want a choice quote from Israeli historian Anita Shapira?

                “The idea of the Jews returning to their ancient homeland as the first step to world redemption seems to have originated among a specific group of evangelical English Protestants that flourished in England in the 1840s; they passed this notion on to Jewish circles.”

                Jews have been returning

                Are you talking about Palestine? You know… the place that has always had large Jewish communities all throughout the middle-ages right up to 1949?

                Is that the place you are referring to?

                • SwampYankee@mander.xyz
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                  1 year ago

                  Christian Zionism

                  And where exactly do you think the Christian Zionists got their ideas?

                  Could it be Maimonides?

                  The days of the Messiah, however, is the time when rulership will return to Israel and that they will go back to the land of Israel and that this king will be very great, and the seat of his rulership will be in Zion (Jerusalem). His fame will grow and his mention will be among all of the nations, [even] more than King Shlomo. And all of the peoples will make peace with him and all of the lands will serve him, due to his great righteousness and due to the wonders that will come about though him. And anyone that comes against him, God, may He be elevated, will deliver into his hand. And all of the [relevant] verses in Scripture testify to his success and our success with him. And nothing about existence will change from what it is now, except that rulership will return to Israel.

                  Maimonides advocated that wise men, those who understood the words of the sages, would naturally establish this “rulership” in Israel. Of course he was commenting on the Mishnah which dates back to the second or third century CE. The Christian Zionists’ reason for wishing for the Jews to return to Israel is to bring about the end/messianic times. This prophecy first appeared in Judaism.

                  If you want to get into the specifics of practical & poltical Zionism of the late 19th century, sure it was inspired by European nationalism. But if that’s all it takes for something to be white supremacy, then I guess all the various forms of Arab and African nationalism are white supremacy, too. The political, financial, and logistical methods employed by modern Zionists in the establishment of Israel were reflections of the time in which it took place. Had the Holocaust not occurred, the aliyot of the late 19th and early 20th century likely would have fizzled out without significantly effecting the balance of power in the region, like all the aliyot prior.

                  Are you talking about Palestine? You know… the place that has always had large Jewish communities all throughout the middle-ages right up to 1949?

                  Yes, lol. Keep up. The Jewish population waxed & waned over the centuries due to waves of expulsion and emigration, and aliyot.

                  Anyway, modern Zionism doesn’t need to be smeared as “white supremacy”; it stands on its own as a terrible idea, that in its full realization requires violence against and the displacement & expulsion of the Palestinian people.

                  • masquenox@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Could it be Maimonides?

                    No. There is a lot of “return” mythologies you can name that is present in a lot of diaspora communities, but that doesn’t mean you see Rastafarians perpetrating settler-colonialism in Ethiopia or the Irish making the case for violently retaking Dublin from… the Irish. You could, if you wanted, make a case for Liberia - but once again, Liberia is a result of a white supremacist urge to get rid of a hated other by displacing said “other” “back where they came from…” which, now that we’re talking about it, most certainly does have parallels with Christian Zionism’s core antisemitism.

                    then I guess all the various forms of Arab and African nationalism are white supremacy, too.

                    And who were Arab and African nationalists supposed to be white supremacist to? Whiteness defines itself by that which it is not… African nationalism is still, to this very day, beset by the racialized politics enforced onto it by white supremacist empires - Rwanda is merely one case of many - but the idea that sub-Saharan Africans have universally embraced the kind of comprehensive racialized caste system that European “race science” has normalized is ludicrous.

                    Anyway, modern Zionism doesn’t need to be smeared as “white supremacy”

                    Maybe you need to tell the Israelis that.