If the descentralization of social networks continue, we will have to prepare for the eventual rise of the instances wars, where people will start to fight about which instance is better and which one is weird to be in and so on, but that’s for the future of us all.
And that’s exactly what’s supposed to happen. Instance wars and eventual defederation and fragmentation are important moderation tools, and will progress the culture and feel of instances and regions of the Fediverse. Many instances will form federated cliques that are highly connected and have similar vibes and cultures, and some will be federated with multiple cliques, showing users a variety of cultures and situations.
If the Fediverse reaches a large enough number of people, it can support multiple independant cliques, and enable users see entire mini-universes with different communities and vibes.
imma have undercover alts everywhere for the sole purpose of getting all the cats communities in one page.
My man !
Your legend well be carved into the pages of history as the first person to complete the catalog!
A man or sheer will and and an unhealthy amount of love for cat photos on the internet
One benefit that people don’t talk about enough is it naturally tends towards smaller community sizes than in a centralized system which is a better fit for our tribal human brains.
We’re not great with speaking into a room with 1,000 people in it, much less a million.
The problem is that it’s worse for keeping topics centralized and fragments communities for external reasons. It’s antithetical to the idea of a link aggregator where you centralize all of your news if you need to use several of them to make it work. Defederation should be a last resort to protect the admins from legal action, content manipulation, or brigading, not because beehaw thinks open signups harm their safe space. Making the internet a safe space is how we got to this point with Twitter/Google/meta/reddit, and everyone wants to do it all over again to rebuild their echo chambers.
Perhaps keeping topics de-centralized is a key part of keeping systems from turning tyrannical. That’s the theory behind the term “totalitarian”: that too much unification of thought produces behavioral restrictions, via the justification that if the truth of each topic is known and indisputable, then there’s no reason to share power in society as long as the person in power knows the One Truth.
Centralized systems designed to uncover one clear answer, such as stack overflow, have every reason to fight against redundancy in answers. Anything rightly called a community though should not be built around the (totalitarian) idea that conversations are best centralized and made non-redundant.
Big important questions need to be rehashed millions of times, not just covered once with millions of audience members.
99% of the content people post and interact with doesn’t have a reason for multiple copies of it’s conversation to exist. Most content is consumed not discusses.
Yet when a person arrives and asks a question they are discussing. If they wanted to consume, the could.
And the vast majority of the users consume the answers, not the discussion. They don’t ask the questions, hey look them up, and if no one asked, or no one answered, they can’t find anything and just give up. They don’t ask.
And some of them don’t even bother with trying to look it up. They just ask, because they like that method of getting information.
I agree, and I’ve already seen this happen!
One popular instance, Beehaw announced that they defederated from lemmy.world and shitjustworks to protect itself from an onslaught of new folks. Beehaw’s admins say that lemmy.world and shitjustworks have let in a lot of folks who aren’t well vetted and are the focus of most moderation action, so they’re restricting access from those two instances.
And I’m over here on an instance with 600 users like, “Hm. That’s a pity. Glad I’m not as basic as those poor folks.”
I don’t get how this is insightful… The internet already has 4chan, okbuddyretard, whatever, people will always form communities
Damn, this actually made me feel chills. This is actually a universe in the making. It’s new life.
That’s really freaking cool. I hope it plays out like that
There is nothing better than a good old tribe war.
One of the oldest human pastimes, hating people who are different from you in some way, no matter how inconsequential.
“You ever notice that? Any time you see two groups of people who really hate each other, chances are good they’re wearing different kind of hats. Keep an eye on that, it might be important.” - George Carlin
Ah shit they should bring back tribes, I miss that game.
Goddam you made me nostalgic. Wonder how slow i would be today… Sloooooow
Nothing drives down real estate prices like a good old-fashioned gang war.
The big problem is going to be when someone decides to start spamming and vote manipulating with bot populated private instances that automatically re-spawn themselves under a new name whenever they are blacklisted. Eventually, the standard will have to move to whitelisting over blacklisting, and once that happens the whole premise of federation starts to fall apart.
It’s not harder than what we’ve had to do with e-mail spam. Which has been enormously successful, with 99% of it not even getting delivered to your spam folder but just dropped entirely.
Instances will het as much visibility as they’ve earned through successful engagement across instances. The visibility of a new instance’s posts will increase over time.
This is why yes, there needs to be a feed algorithm. “Just show it to me chronologically” is the most naive thought, and people still have it all the time. There are just so many fundamental things that need to go into a sorting algo. We’re not even talking about personalization.
E-mail spam filter is funded by google and other multibillion megacorporations though, and they just outright block or rate limit unknown providers. I’d say it’s not gonna be as easy to do it with fediverse.
This is why yes, there needs to be a feed algorithm. “Just show it to me chronologically” is the most naive thought
Agreed 100% but again, I wonder if we have enough resources to actually make it good while also keeping it free, both in terms of monetization and in terms of outside influence and biases. Twitter and others spend a lot of manhours on it and mastodon still doesn’t have it either for example, it’s not even being worked on afaik (or nobody talks about it).
The trick is to find out how to leverage the community for quality signals, and just support that with good foundations.
Spam filtering is done by corporations but they’re not all mega tech companies like Google. A lot of it is done at the network level, too.
DNS has also always been the prime example of a federated service that works so well we can rely on it as a public utility. Why hasn’t it been taken over by bad actors rapidly recycling their identities? It’s not because big tech has thousands of human agents monitoring it at great expense.
how to leverage the community for quality signals
I say we give each person one up or down vote on each piece of content. Then, people should be able to sort by the sum of those up or down votes (with up being worth +1 and down being worth -1).
I’m not sure, but I suspect a system like that might have content moderation built into its structure.
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Moderation itself can be gamed. A moderator who’s a bad actor can cause a lot of damage easily by “gaming” the moderation system.
We can keep playing this until some bad actor is pretending to be me typing this right now.
But this is why moderators work in teams, and why there is an admin as well. A solo mod who’s a bad actor is not going to develop a very appealing community, and whole scam shitpile instances can always be defederated.
It’s why I’ve made fediseer.com to prepare for this inevitability
So I went to the website. It explains what it does, but not much how… Or maybe I’m too dumb to get it. Could you explain how the verification happens? How does this system work?
Did you read the devlog? I got into more detail there. Just so I don’t explain everything from scratch
Hey one thing I learned while canvassing for a politician is that it can be really beneficial to repeat yourself when it comes to articulating a message, instead of articulating it once then passing copies.
The more times you write and rewrite the same explanation the better it will get.
I had not. I see it now. Looks real cool! I hope it works.
I think these problems might be solvable with auto blacklisting instances based on their age, how their users behave and what % of comments and posts of them are flagged as spam
How would an instance grow if it’s auto blacklisted by everyone? Doesn’t make sense
Thats the problem. It would be very difficult to get a new instance off the ground unless you were an insider or had inside connections. If you have a cabal of existing admins acting as gate keepers you could keep outsiders from abusing the system easily, but you are also walking right back into the centralized control federation is supposed to prevent.
Welcome back to IRC. :)
One thing that is feasible is for established instances to give votes from new instances a lower weight. So, no blacklisting, but until they have been around for a little while to be able to calculate that their activity corresponds to their size and that nothing is off, upvotes and dowvotes could be ignored or given a lower weight.
Well non-federated forums can grow by word of mouth and similar. Being federated does lower the barrier of entry for interacting but it’s still possible to visit the instance the old fashioned way. You probably still need to rely mostly on word of mouth anyway, even if you are federated.
Yes, age alone shouldn’t lead to getting blacklisted. But if an instance is two days old, already 50+ accounts from there were banned on your instance for being bots and besides that there was no real contributions coming from that place, this might be a candidate for auto-blacklisting.
Maybe we’ll move to a system where only upvotes from that home’s instance matter. After all karma is meaningless anyway and is just used for short term discoverability, maybe kbin1.social doesn’t care how kbin2.social votes on kbin1.social threads (or any lemmy example instance)? If you subscribe to kbin1.social then you hope that they will upvote their content appropriately the same way you expect them to self-moderate appropriately. Dunno, just thinking out loud
and once that happens the whole premise of federation starts to fall apart.
Will it? Even if we get to the point where there’s a whitelisting system, major instances will still be federated. There could be even a transitional small instances federation.
Ya there probably will be, but in the end it doesn’t matter which is the beauty of this platform.
True, and now that i’ve tried this, the “corporate” social networks feel primitive somehow.
Like going to Six Flags after your first Burning Man.
Cause I tried so hard …
And got so far
But in the end
Lemmy.ml sucks
It doesn’t even matter
c/lemmysings
I had to fall
No… No. No. NO!
Goddamit, the chains have returned
Singing chains are inevitable
The biggest problem with lemmy and decentralization right now is that for optimal performance you need to spread out the load relatively evenly between instances. The problem is that users tend to go where other users are (otherwise why go there) and that naturally leads to clumping on one or few instances which causes it to overload.
The way to solve it is to avoid having generic “anything goes” instances and instead have instances be focused on a specific topic. For example, have gaming instance, a personal finance/investing instance, all things home ownership and improvement instance, etc. You can have multiple communities per instance as long as they stay within the same general topic. This way users will naturally spread out by subscribing to different instances based on topics they’re interested in. And that will solve the performance issue we’re seeing with lemmy.world or other popular instances.
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I get the sentiment and that is sarcasm and all, but this could still be hurtful to some people. Let’s grow past dick size humor because I know that lemmings are better than that.
The way to get over something is to adapt, not avoid it.
It’s funny that dick size is a thing we care about. Some guys get big dicks, some get small ones, some guys let it define them, other guys don’t, some women admit they like big dicks, some don’t admit it, some actually don’t. Life is full of horror and it’s funny.
The more things you have to avoid the worse off you are.
Plus every time someone makes a dick size joke I think about randy marshs dick size formula. The time and effort he spend to make his dick be average size always cracks me up.
Like who cares about your dick size? Relatively few people get to see it anyways and if they judge you for it you’re probably better of without them.
Humor police? No thank you…
I think there will eventually be a “safe space” subfederation for people with a fragile sense of humor. We can all coexist.
It’s called beehaw, pretty much.
Yeah, question their morals or say they eat cats, lol
feddit.de über Allen!
/s
lemmy.world and lemmy.ml users competing whos the most generic NPC
pawb.social users not existing
lemm.ee and vlemmy.net users actually being based
I used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Lemmy.zip users hoping the hamster has a few more months of running on the wheel to keep the servers powered until a new hamster can be purchased.
lol
“Instance wars” sounds like the way “the consequences of my own actions” will be framed at a point.
The far right instances dripping with hate, bigotry and recycled propaganda will be in an “Instance war” with the mainstream instances talking about regular human being stuff - stuff like beans.
Grab your samurai swords, mall ninjas… and inventory your powdered eggs, theocratic fascist doomsday preppers…
The instance wars are coming for your unvaccinated, homeschooled, incel butts!
I mean, we already see small skirmishes here and there.
As long as there are more than two humans left, we’ll always find something stupid to argue about
Will not!
Will too!
I love Jacques Cousteau!
I guess Reddit is on a good track to eliminate flame wars.
Email is federated as well, but I never saw anything I could call email instance wars. You can use whichever you want, no one really cares.
If I see an sbcglobal, aol, hotmail, or yahoo, I will assume tech illiteracy
Gmail vs Hotmail vs Yahoo was pretty big, and before that, AOL.
If I ever saw @aol.com as front desk in a hotel, I knew I was potentially in for a bad time!
Yeah, I definitely never judge people for having a comcast.net email address.
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💀
What if there was an app that let you log in to multiple lemmy accounts at once, aggregated the lot into one seamless feed, and used the relevant account for each interaction? Maybe even going as far as to automatically cross-post any submission to duplicate communities and aggregate that too.
Don’t we kinda already have them?
Already happening. Have you heard of Beehaw?
Competition is good. Competition keeps us strong.
It’s not a war…
I swear people here have no damn idea what they’re talking about…
But it is competition. When someone separates themselves now they are competing for the resources they decided not to share.
It wasn’t ever intend as a competition either. If they’re feeling overwhelmed and want to separate from big instances for a while, then they should be able to. Everyone’s taking it super personal when it’s not meant to be.
Regardless of the intention, competition is competition. Two artists whose paintings hang in the same gallery are competing for attention.
Competition happens any time a resource is needed by both and not shared. One who chooses to stop sharing has entered competition. Unless they just don’t want the resources.
what about beehaw? i’ve seen it around, but know not of any instance wars.
Beehaw defederated from a lot of servers and nobody knows why.
Nobody? They posted an explanation lol
It made no sense.
It made no sense to you.
Did it make sense to you?
Yes. How I understand it they’re trying to run a curated safe space over there but are finding current moderation tools insufficient to moderate the influx of users on certain instances. I believe it was connected to those with no registration verification.
They’ve said they don’t want to do it, and once they’re feeling able to take better control they will re-federate.
And, that’s entirely their call. If their users want access outside of their walled garden they can make an account elsewhere. If people currently defederated from them wants access, join an instance still federated.
It’s because they’re lame.
Begun, the instance wars have.
Too late, it is.
What about the defederation of the wookies?
This will likely follow a similar pattern to email, since it’s starting from a very similar position.
At some point people will begin to assign identities to instances and imagine (rightly or wrongly) that being on an instance says something about a person. People do that with cars, shoes, and yes, even email domains.
From a technical perspective, right now Lemmy is as anonymous as can be — I’ve yet to see an instance that requires ANY kind of verification. I didn’t need to provide an email address, phone number, or any other identifying information to sign up. Didn’t even need to solve a captcha. I just choose a name and set a password and BOOM! I was in.
Once upon a time, email worked this way, too. Then came the spammers, scammers, and other bad actors, and this was deemed untenable. Nowadays, any email provider that allows anonymous signup is likely to be blocked by most of the email-using world. You won’t be able to use them to sign up for other services, and you might not even have your mail accepted by other providers.
This will definitely become a problem as Lemmy becomes popular, and instance admins will need to crack down, lest they be overrun and defederated by the rest of the world.
I’m not sure what the answer is. This is a problem that has not been adequately solved, IMHO. A few bad apples spoil the bunch. That’s been true since long before the Internet.
Any good guides on all the instances?
I want to pick sides early so I can feast on the blood of those who dared choose differently.
Just stay away from Lemmy.nz we…I mean they are VERY southern
