As a cyclist, I’ve seen more motorists blow through stop signs than other cyclists, and they are the ones who can kill someone.
Idaho Stops need to come to Canada. Not only have they been proven to be safer, but it makes sense in a dozen different ways.
I’ve sat at red lights (as a cyclist) and the light DOES NOT CHANGE unless a car is waiting at that same light. We’re talking 10+ minutes. Who the hell thinks it’s OK for cyclists to have to sit there indefinitely when no other cars are around, just because of some outdated laws? We need to change with the times!
As a Torontonian cyclist, according to what I see, we blow through stop signs way more than cars. Way more. Of course physically we can mostly just harm ourselves.
But yes the rules of the road have to change in this regard. The status quo is clearly car-friendly. Not only it doesn’t prioritize cyclists, but it doesn’t prioritize pedestrians either.
BTW, ebikes help negotiating the status quo a lot. They make stopping at stop signs trivial, as well as keeping a safe speed when riding where there’s no bike lanes.
I’m east of the city, and we don’t have nearly the same amount of cyclists as you do, but only very few ever cautiously ride through a stop sign. I won’t lie, but I did see quite a few cyclists going through stop signs when I was in the city last weekend… not putting anyone in danger, just to save time.
I thought I read about a protest in Toronto where cyclists were stopping at EVERY stop sign as a large group, backing up traffic in an act of malicious compliance. I’d be totally down for that if crazy motorists didn’t turn their rage onto me, rather than onto these outdated rules.
I agree that e-bikes can level the playing field, but the general public shouldn’t need to have a powered bike to have fair rules, either.
No way man, so many vehicles don’t come to a complete stop. I see it walking, and biking around Toronto. Think right on red - the only time cars come to a complete stop in Toronto is if they’re going to run over someone (and even then that stop them).
And the way our police enforce it here is that they expect a complete foot down stop, on some stretches in Toronto that’s a complete stop every 200m. Or a complete stop on a bike lane with a T intersection where there’s no chance of a car being there.
We were lazy and didn’t bother actually writing different laws for bikes and just sort of grouped them in with cars. And then we have dickheads like TPS or Barrie PD here ticketing cyclists for rolling through a stop sign.
I don’t agree that they do it more, but they do it a lot. That’s my anecdata. Now let me join you in toRANting about it.
Stop on right on red is a fucking abomination. No one stops. I have no stats but I bet this is where a huge proportion of pedestrians get maimed. People close to me were run over this way. I was once saved by a bus driver massively honking to warn me that an imbecile was turning right on red from the middle lane, at speed. At first I WTFed at the bus driver, a second later I was running to save myself from the incoming moron.
And the way our police enforce it
Police are enforcing anything? Yes I know this is a topic about cyclist getting ticketed in Barrie, but honestly, I think the TPS have completely abdicated from enforcing any road rules at this point. I will accept being ticketed for stop signs if they enforced those across the board, as well as most other common infractions like right on red, or … straight on red, which is now very common. Enforcement across the board will suck for some things but it will absolutely improve the status quo on the road. Things have gotten pretty bad over the last decade for all road users.
No one (at least effectively) thinks it’s ok to keep cyclists waiting indefinitely - they just don’t think about the cyclist experience at all. Bad intersections are windshield bias at its peak
As a cyclist, I’ve seen more motorists blow through stop signs than other cyclists, and they are the ones who can kill someone.
Cyclists always try to use this defense/whataboutism way too often, without realizing that to a pedestrian, you on your bike are just as deadly as a car. Motorists are at least expected to know the rules of the road, cyclists openly oppose any sort of education and even act offended at the idea that they too should know the rules of the road they’re on. As a pedestrian in Toronto, cyclists are my biggest danger, not motorists.
without realizing that to a pedestrian, you on your bike are just as deadly as a car.
Statistically, that’s not true. A car at any speed can kill a pedestrian or cyclist. For a cyclist to kill a pedestrian, which is exceedingly rare, it would take a lot of speed and bad luck to result in a fatality. I don’t think I’ve ever even heard of a cyclist killing a pedestrian at a stop sign.
But to be clear, I don’t advocate for cyclists blowing through stops when there are pedestrians around, since that’s obviously not obeying the right of way. I aim to be a defensive and respectful rider when I’m on my bike.
But I would still like to see more enforcement of stop rules being applied to motorists (and not cyclists on empty roads), since they really are responsible for the vast majority of catastrophic injury and death for pedestrians and cyclists.
At the same time, we can’t ignore that far too many pedestrians put themselves at risk, so everyone has some personal responsibility here.
Motorists are at least expected to know the rules of the road, cyclists openly oppose any sort of education and even act offended at the idea that they too should know the rules of the road they’re on. As a pedestrian in Toronto, cyclists are my biggest danger, not motorists.
I think this is the most important part that you are ignoring here.
Certainly, cyclists aren’t as deadly as a motor vehicle. However, cyclists who don’t respect the rules are still very much dangerous.
As the other person said, as a pedestrian I too have been a victim of being hit by cyclists several times because they blew a red light. Several. Times. And each time I lay on the ground while the cyclist yelled and insulted me and ran away.
This has never happened to me with a motorist because the vast motorist respect rules and signage on the road and they understand the consequences.
I, myself, as a cyclist have been a victim of several other cyclists on the road, and in reserved bike lanes, who are not careful or respectful of other cyclists. I’ve been pushed over and ran into by other cyclists.
Attitudes and respect of the rules of the road need to change among cyclists.
However, cyclists who don’t respect the rules are still very much dangerous.
I do agree! I don’t want cyclists to ignore rules or ride like maniacs, but I also don’t want cyclists to be targeted for doing things that shouldn’t even be against the law.
I too have been a victim of being hit by cyclists several times because they blew a red light.
They were flat out breaking the law and riding dangerously, so I’m sorry that happened to you. That’s NOT what an Idaho Stop seeks to remedy.
This has never happened to me with a motorist because the vast motorist respect rules and signage on the road and they understand the consequences.
Statistically, it really is cars and trucks that are killing people (or even severely injuring them), and other accidents not involving motor vehicles are really quite rare.
Not to discount your experience, because it is important to acknowledge that cyclist on pedestrian accidents still do happen, but they are **very ** rare.
Attitudes and respect of the rules of the road need to change among cyclists.
Agreed.
I think that everyone should be riding respectfully, and while we can’t change asshole behaviour, we can certainly do our best to not punish good cyclists.
For a cyclist to kill a pedestrian, which is exceedingly rare, it would take a lot of speed and bad luck to result in a fatality
Oh good, pedestrians will only need to work about being seriously hurt then, but probably not dead.
If a cop sees a car run the lights, that car will likely get a ticket. In most cases that I’ve seen it’s not that the laws are unenforced so much as there’s nobody with authority to do so witnessing the transgression.
Oh good, pedestrians will only need to work about being seriously hurt then, but probably not dead.
I don’t want pedestrians to have to worry about any type of injury!
You have to look at things in context, because pedestrian safety has a LOT to do with pedestrian behaviour, poor infrastructure, and motor vehicles, not whether a cyclist decides to roll through a stop sign at an empty intersection.
Cyclists and pedestrians can still get into conflicts with each other, but it doesn’t happen as often and certainly not as severely as other types of accidents.
But here’s some food for thought: the Traffic Injury Research Foundation out of Ottawa put out a fact sheet which showed that in fatally injured pedestrians, nearly 50% had alcohol in their system (the pedestrian, not the driver); 40% had drugs in their system.
In my experience as a driver, pedestrian, and cyclist, many pedestrians aren’t aware of their own surroundings, which puts them at risk.
J-walking, walking before they get a “walk” signal, walking with headphones, not walking where they’re supposed to be (i.e. wrong side of a multi-use path), not wearing bright clothing at night, etc.
Everyone has to be mindful of their own behaviour to increase the chance of being safe, but that’s not to say that poor infrastructure has no fault in this.
But I can’t really speak to the city experience, since I don’t live in Downtown Toronto. In those cases, I do defer to what stats and studies say about cyclist/pedestrian safety.
I don’t disagree, but unfortunately there’s only so much one can do to anticipate the stupidity of the average oblivious pedestrian, and while I’ve had a few encounters with people crossing against the signals/traffic with earbuds in, the gross majority also seem to be members of the growing local transient population who are often fairly inebriated or generally dismissive of societal rules.
I’d say the best one can do is pay attention and follow rules that used to be taught in old safe-driving courses (but also apply to biking). I slow down a bit and am ready to brake at populated intersections even if I have the right-of-way, slow or move farther out when I see rambunctious/unattended kids on the sidewalk, and the same for drunks, transients, or areas where such congregate and are known to spontaneously bolt across the road.
Assuming somebody may demonstrate a spontaneous lack of self-preservation has saved me from running somebody down on more than one occasion, both with motor-vehicles or bikes. I also tend to give more space to BMW’s, Audi’s, and lifted trucks… because reasons :-)
Bikes CAN hurt pedestrians, but it’s statistically rare compared to injuries/death caused by cars. E-bikes increase the risk significantly, though.
It also illustrates that proper infrastructure is needed, since an accident like that shouldn’t even happen. In some areas around here, we have split trails, which separate (by several meters and bushes) cyclists and pedestrians.
However, there are often pedestrians strolling on the cyclist side, or cyclists on the pedestrian side, and that’s just dangerous for everyone. I honestly don’t know why simple routes are so difficult for some people to follow.
I’m not of a fan of the whataboutism either. Many of us are all three. Objectively a pedestrian-cyclist crash is a lot less likely to leave you with a life changing injury than a pedestrian-car crash, purely due to the massive difference in energies involved. In order to get a more accurate intuition for the expected damage, you have to think about the energy involved. That’s given by the speed (squared) times the mass. A light car is about 10x heavier than a cyclist on a bike. For the same speed it has 10x the energy to impact on your bones and tissues. Therefore you should expect a lot more damage. That doesn’t mean that the large number of pedestrian-cyclist near-misses isn’t mentally impactful. They are and they do absolutely happen a lot. Getting scared regularly isn’t healthy or fun. Ironically though, cars going quietly at 30kph don’t feel as scary, yet they will easily maim pedestrians on impact, often permanently. My destroyed subtalar joint from a seemingly minor accident on a crossing can attest to that.
As a cyclist, I’ve seen more motorists blow through stop signs than other cyclists, and they are the ones who can kill someone.
Idaho Stops need to come to Canada. Not only have they been proven to be safer, but it makes sense in a dozen different ways.
I’ve sat at red lights (as a cyclist) and the light DOES NOT CHANGE unless a car is waiting at that same light. We’re talking 10+ minutes. Who the hell thinks it’s OK for cyclists to have to sit there indefinitely when no other cars are around, just because of some outdated laws? We need to change with the times!
As a Torontonian cyclist, according to what I see, we blow through stop signs way more than cars. Way more. Of course physically we can mostly just harm ourselves.
But yes the rules of the road have to change in this regard. The status quo is clearly car-friendly. Not only it doesn’t prioritize cyclists, but it doesn’t prioritize pedestrians either.
BTW, ebikes help negotiating the status quo a lot. They make stopping at stop signs trivial, as well as keeping a safe speed when riding where there’s no bike lanes.
I’m east of the city, and we don’t have nearly the same amount of cyclists as you do, but only very few ever cautiously ride through a stop sign. I won’t lie, but I did see quite a few cyclists going through stop signs when I was in the city last weekend… not putting anyone in danger, just to save time.
I thought I read about a protest in Toronto where cyclists were stopping at EVERY stop sign as a large group, backing up traffic in an act of malicious compliance. I’d be totally down for that if crazy motorists didn’t turn their rage onto me, rather than onto these outdated rules.
I agree that e-bikes can level the playing field, but the general public shouldn’t need to have a powered bike to have fair rules, either.
That protest sounds amazing. Motorists can’t actively rage at a large group of cyclists. 🤭
Yes, ebikes shouldn’t be needed by everyone to cycle safely. The rules are bad and so is the infrastructure.
Found it! It was in protest to cyclist harassment by Toronto Police in High Park.
Perhaps the cyclists in Barrie need to stage something similar :)
No way man, so many vehicles don’t come to a complete stop. I see it walking, and biking around Toronto. Think right on red - the only time cars come to a complete stop in Toronto is if they’re going to run over someone (and even then that stop them).
And the way our police enforce it here is that they expect a complete foot down stop, on some stretches in Toronto that’s a complete stop every 200m. Or a complete stop on a bike lane with a T intersection where there’s no chance of a car being there.
We were lazy and didn’t bother actually writing different laws for bikes and just sort of grouped them in with cars. And then we have dickheads like TPS or Barrie PD here ticketing cyclists for rolling through a stop sign.
I don’t agree that they do it more, but they do it a lot. That’s my anecdata. Now let me join you in toRANting about it.
Stop on right on red is a fucking abomination. No one stops. I have no stats but I bet this is where a huge proportion of pedestrians get maimed. People close to me were run over this way. I was once saved by a bus driver massively honking to warn me that an imbecile was turning right on red from the middle lane, at speed. At first I WTFed at the bus driver, a second later I was running to save myself from the incoming moron.
Police are enforcing anything? Yes I know this is a topic about cyclist getting ticketed in Barrie, but honestly, I think the TPS have completely abdicated from enforcing any road rules at this point. I will accept being ticketed for stop signs if they enforced those across the board, as well as most other common infractions like right on red, or … straight on red, which is now very common. Enforcement across the board will suck for some things but it will absolutely improve the status quo on the road. Things have gotten pretty bad over the last decade for all road users.
No one (at least effectively) thinks it’s ok to keep cyclists waiting indefinitely - they just don’t think about the cyclist experience at all. Bad intersections are windshield bias at its peak
Cyclists always try to use this defense/whataboutism way too often, without realizing that to a pedestrian, you on your bike are just as deadly as a car. Motorists are at least expected to know the rules of the road, cyclists openly oppose any sort of education and even act offended at the idea that they too should know the rules of the road they’re on. As a pedestrian in Toronto, cyclists are my biggest danger, not motorists.
Statistically, that’s not true. A car at any speed can kill a pedestrian or cyclist. For a cyclist to kill a pedestrian, which is exceedingly rare, it would take a lot of speed and bad luck to result in a fatality. I don’t think I’ve ever even heard of a cyclist killing a pedestrian at a stop sign.
But to be clear, I don’t advocate for cyclists blowing through stops when there are pedestrians around, since that’s obviously not obeying the right of way. I aim to be a defensive and respectful rider when I’m on my bike.
But I would still like to see more enforcement of stop rules being applied to motorists (and not cyclists on empty roads), since they really are responsible for the vast majority of catastrophic injury and death for pedestrians and cyclists.
At the same time, we can’t ignore that far too many pedestrians put themselves at risk, so everyone has some personal responsibility here.
I think this is the most important part that you are ignoring here.
Certainly, cyclists aren’t as deadly as a motor vehicle. However, cyclists who don’t respect the rules are still very much dangerous.
As the other person said, as a pedestrian I too have been a victim of being hit by cyclists several times because they blew a red light. Several. Times. And each time I lay on the ground while the cyclist yelled and insulted me and ran away.
This has never happened to me with a motorist because the vast motorist respect rules and signage on the road and they understand the consequences.
I, myself, as a cyclist have been a victim of several other cyclists on the road, and in reserved bike lanes, who are not careful or respectful of other cyclists. I’ve been pushed over and ran into by other cyclists.
Attitudes and respect of the rules of the road need to change among cyclists.
I do agree! I don’t want cyclists to ignore rules or ride like maniacs, but I also don’t want cyclists to be targeted for doing things that shouldn’t even be against the law.
They were flat out breaking the law and riding dangerously, so I’m sorry that happened to you. That’s NOT what an Idaho Stop seeks to remedy.
Statistically, it really is cars and trucks that are killing people (or even severely injuring them), and other accidents not involving motor vehicles are really quite rare.
Not to discount your experience, because it is important to acknowledge that cyclist on pedestrian accidents still do happen, but they are **very ** rare.
Agreed.
I think that everyone should be riding respectfully, and while we can’t change asshole behaviour, we can certainly do our best to not punish good cyclists.
Oh good, pedestrians will only need to work about being seriously hurt then, but probably not dead.
If a cop sees a car run the lights, that car will likely get a ticket. In most cases that I’ve seen it’s not that the laws are unenforced so much as there’s nobody with authority to do so witnessing the transgression.
I don’t want pedestrians to have to worry about any type of injury!
You have to look at things in context, because pedestrian safety has a LOT to do with pedestrian behaviour, poor infrastructure, and motor vehicles, not whether a cyclist decides to roll through a stop sign at an empty intersection.
Cyclists and pedestrians can still get into conflicts with each other, but it doesn’t happen as often and certainly not as severely as other types of accidents.
But here’s some food for thought: the Traffic Injury Research Foundation out of Ottawa put out a fact sheet which showed that in fatally injured pedestrians, nearly 50% had alcohol in their system (the pedestrian, not the driver); 40% had drugs in their system.
In my experience as a driver, pedestrian, and cyclist, many pedestrians aren’t aware of their own surroundings, which puts them at risk.
J-walking, walking before they get a “walk” signal, walking with headphones, not walking where they’re supposed to be (i.e. wrong side of a multi-use path), not wearing bright clothing at night, etc.
Everyone has to be mindful of their own behaviour to increase the chance of being safe, but that’s not to say that poor infrastructure has no fault in this.
But I can’t really speak to the city experience, since I don’t live in Downtown Toronto. In those cases, I do defer to what stats and studies say about cyclist/pedestrian safety.
I don’t disagree, but unfortunately there’s only so much one can do to anticipate the stupidity of the average oblivious pedestrian, and while I’ve had a few encounters with people crossing against the signals/traffic with earbuds in, the gross majority also seem to be members of the growing local transient population who are often fairly inebriated or generally dismissive of societal rules.
I’d say the best one can do is pay attention and follow rules that used to be taught in old safe-driving courses (but also apply to biking). I slow down a bit and am ready to brake at populated intersections even if I have the right-of-way, slow or move farther out when I see rambunctious/unattended kids on the sidewalk, and the same for drunks, transients, or areas where such congregate and are known to spontaneously bolt across the road.
Assuming somebody may demonstrate a spontaneous lack of self-preservation has saved me from running somebody down on more than one occasion, both with motor-vehicles or bikes. I also tend to give more space to BMW’s, Audi’s, and lifted trucks… because reasons :-)
Everyone keeps talking about how bikes can’t hurt pedestrians, meanwhile my wife’s aunt has permanent brain damage cause she got hit by a cyclist.
I’m really sorry to hear that.
Bikes CAN hurt pedestrians, but it’s statistically rare compared to injuries/death caused by cars. E-bikes increase the risk significantly, though.
It also illustrates that proper infrastructure is needed, since an accident like that shouldn’t even happen. In some areas around here, we have split trails, which separate (by several meters and bushes) cyclists and pedestrians.
However, there are often pedestrians strolling on the cyclist side, or cyclists on the pedestrian side, and that’s just dangerous for everyone. I honestly don’t know why simple routes are so difficult for some people to follow.
Lol car hitting cyclists and pedestrians go vrooom
I’m not of a fan of the whataboutism either. Many of us are all three. Objectively a pedestrian-cyclist crash is a lot less likely to leave you with a life changing injury than a pedestrian-car crash, purely due to the massive difference in energies involved. In order to get a more accurate intuition for the expected damage, you have to think about the energy involved. That’s given by the speed (squared) times the mass. A light car is about 10x heavier than a cyclist on a bike. For the same speed it has 10x the energy to impact on your bones and tissues. Therefore you should expect a lot more damage. That doesn’t mean that the large number of pedestrian-cyclist near-misses isn’t mentally impactful. They are and they do absolutely happen a lot. Getting scared regularly isn’t healthy or fun. Ironically though, cars going quietly at 30kph don’t feel as scary, yet they will easily maim pedestrians on impact, often permanently. My destroyed subtalar joint from a seemingly minor accident on a crossing can attest to that.
Ohio allows this. If the red doesn’t detect your bike it you can treat it as a yield
As it should!
Stop signs should be treated as “yield” and red lights should be treated as “stop”.