Although the practicality is questionable, I think the takeaway is that we will have to rethink mobility and dense environments with good cycling infrastructure will be the most sustainable ones. Public transportation which is great too, also requires a certain density to be feasible.
Not only vote, but get involved in local politics. A lot of transportation and zoning issues have real things happening at the local levels where a single individual can make a difference
It is questionable though in most states in the US atleast. Not sure how someone who lives a 20 minute drive from the nearest town in the middle of nowhere is supposed to ride a bike around. The whole world isn’t urbanized
You’re right that currently it’s hard many places in the US thanks to suburbs, terrible zoning, car focused laws and so on.
But it’s not like biking itself is the issue here, it’s that you are in dire need of better infrastructure, zoning, public transport and laws.
Again this is semantics. But this isn’t true. Look at the entire state of WV or any state that is mountainous. Unless magically millions of people get in much better shape there isn’t an obvious solution. I’m all for better infrastructure and public transport.
If could enable this 80% to use bicycles and public transportation we’d experience a massive shift in public health, energy efficiency and reduced emissions…
Yep, I’m not debating that point. I’m 100% in favor of doing that. I’m asking about solutions for everyone else. This debate is usually framed as “all we need to do is” when that isn’t the case for everywhere or everyone. Just diving into it a little bit more.
Yeah a solution for the remaining 20% would be great, but we (the US) are not even addressing the urban 80%. I live in the SF Bay Area. It’s incredibly dense here, yet riding a bike is impossible/suicidal. It takes me 20 minutes to get to work by car, but 2 hours by bus. This needs to be fixed first before worrying about small town Montana.
Yep yep, again. Agreed on all counts but that isn’t what the original comments or the article was about. Which is why I brought it up in the first place. I think it’s generally agreed that the more urbanized places would need revamping first. I’m just specifically asking about ideas in rural areas because that’s where I’m from.
To be completely honest, if you’re living somewhere where this doesn’t apply, I wouldn’t worry about it. There are things people in rural areas can (theoretically, depending on which rural area) do to curb their carbon footprint (consuming local agriculture comes to mind) and there are, I’m sure, people working on solving this issue for rural areas. The problem here I think is in this “all or nothing” mindset. As @anji@lemmy.anji.nl mentioned, this is a viable solution theoretically for nearly 80% of those living in one of the least climate friendly nations out there. This is also a viable solution for many (most?) countries, as most people live in cities. This is a solution for those people. For rural people, we will need different solutions. That’s all.
100% and I absolutely get that aspect. My original post was more about trying to find out what those rural solutions are since everyone commenting did keep saying things along the line of “all we need to do is __________”.
Not debating the effectiveness of what they’re suggesting, but also I’m allowed to ask what the other ideas are for those of us who are outside of the urban areas lol.
Then different solutions can be put in place in these places and/or you start with cities and figure out the country side later.
I think the bigger issue you have in the US is the sprawled neighbourhoods, I’m not sure how you can get back from that, maybe recreate small centers in the middle of them.
Sure thing, so you’re saying a phased in approach that mainly focuses on the cities. I agree with that 100%. I’m just not a fan of people saying “that’s all we need to do” and our problems are all fixed. Because it excludes the vast majority of the areas where I am from and I’m wondering if people have solutions other than “build more infrastructure”. Everything else I agree with.
A part of the problem are zoning and parking space laws preventing businesses to open up where people live. If you cant be close to residential areas and have to have an insane number of parking spaces it is hard to operate a shop in small towns.
This, and also just the mass commercialization of everything. The majority of towns don’t have small businesses any more, it’s all chains…or they drive to the nearest Walmart. There was a good article in the NYtimes recently about this and how dollar generals are basically taking over in rural communities. There aren’t enough people in these towns to support a diverse set of businesses, so the businesses shut down and a Dollar General moves in because it covers most basic needs.
So to provide regularly scheduled public transportation we would need to build out rail infrastructure to country areas? I suppose a park and ride system would be effective but what would still require a mass buildout.
I’m thinking of areas like this one I attached. The nearest cities are 1hr drive from most towns, the cities are all small-midsized so don’t have that many jobs (proportionally) in the first place. The solution is to put train stations in every town? Every other town? Then the cities themselves would need to build out rail infrastructure because Albany and Syracuse have very little in the way of public transportation.
Genuinely asking, not trying to come across as snarky. This is actually a middle-ground example. I could show you a map of WV or Western PA if you really want to see rural.
I mean…yes? Absolutely, improve rail infrastructure in Albany and Syracuse. Build park and rides at places that feed into that improved system. Improve bus service (or train? Looks like there are already tracks in many places) along higway corridors with moderately sized communities.
Can counties or cities currently afford this without sacrificing something? No.
Would the federal government and states need to spend hundreds of billions, if not trillions, over several decades to make happen? Yes.
Yeah the track system is largely in place (not sure if freight or passenger). I’m not trying to argue lol. I’m just asking questions. So in your world there would be a mass spiderweb of intersecting trains that sprawls out to everywhere (obviously a kind of park and ride situation) and that would feed into the cities or other communities.
Makes me think about the whole idea of the Green New Deal that Sanders was talking about when he ran the first time. Get a giant workforce of people out there building railways and stations. Would be interesting to see for sure.
For sure for sure, not saying it’s easy! Different solutions include public transports (trains, buses, etc), electric bikes + appropriate paths, electric/hydrogen vehicles, car pooling, offsetting emissions some other way, etc etc.
It’s also about having towns and villages that are “self-sufficient” to a degree where you don’t need to drive to the huge mall or whatever on the regular, and can just pick up the groceries for tonight’s dinner on foot/bike (and yes that means having smaller supermarkets with less choice, but they’re closer! It’s great).
Truthfully even in the Netherlands (where I live) once you get to the countryside every household has a car as well, we do too, living in a rural area. But we can still go do our grocery shopping, and most other things on foot/bike. The car is still necessary for work and getting to some other places though.
And that’s also mainly because we don’t have a train station here and my work takes me to random addresses daily with heavy equipment.
Anyway another part of my point was that if you don’t have a good solution for countrysides, then that shouldn’t stop y’all from moving forward with solutions in city centers and suburban areas.
Yeah for sure. I love looking around the world at different examples including you guys. I grew up in a very rural hilly area so it’s just what I think of first. Completely agree that we should make the changes we can make and figure the rest out later.
There will always be trips and distances for which a car is the best option. It’s fine to take a car then. The call is to take a bike when a bike is feasible, which is way more often than currently. Not for all people, but for a whole lot.
Although the practicality is questionable, I think the takeaway is that we will have to rethink mobility and dense environments with good cycling infrastructure will be the most sustainable ones. Public transportation which is great too, also requires a certain density to be feasible.
The practicality isn’t questionable.
Of course there are outliers and places/people it wouldn’t work for but the vast majority should be absolutely fine.
Even if it’s not practical right away, that’s just a reason to vote to put people in charge who would make it practical and convenient.
It’s also possible to join a non-profit that engage with the public and local governments to make bicycle-friendly infrastructure happen.
Not only vote, but get involved in local politics. A lot of transportation and zoning issues have real things happening at the local levels where a single individual can make a difference
It is questionable though in most states in the US atleast. Not sure how someone who lives a 20 minute drive from the nearest town in the middle of nowhere is supposed to ride a bike around. The whole world isn’t urbanized
You’re right that currently it’s hard many places in the US thanks to suburbs, terrible zoning, car focused laws and so on.
But it’s not like biking itself is the issue here, it’s that you are in dire need of better infrastructure, zoning, public transport and laws.
Again this is semantics. But this isn’t true. Look at the entire state of WV or any state that is mountainous. Unless magically millions of people get in much better shape there isn’t an obvious solution. I’m all for better infrastructure and public transport.
According to the 2022 Census 80% of US population lives in urban areas.
If could enable this 80% to use bicycles and public transportation we’d experience a massive shift in public health, energy efficiency and reduced emissions…
Yep, I’m not debating that point. I’m 100% in favor of doing that. I’m asking about solutions for everyone else. This debate is usually framed as “all we need to do is” when that isn’t the case for everywhere or everyone. Just diving into it a little bit more.
Yeah a solution for the remaining 20% would be great, but we (the US) are not even addressing the urban 80%. I live in the SF Bay Area. It’s incredibly dense here, yet riding a bike is impossible/suicidal. It takes me 20 minutes to get to work by car, but 2 hours by bus. This needs to be fixed first before worrying about small town Montana.
Yep yep, again. Agreed on all counts but that isn’t what the original comments or the article was about. Which is why I brought it up in the first place. I think it’s generally agreed that the more urbanized places would need revamping first. I’m just specifically asking about ideas in rural areas because that’s where I’m from.
To be completely honest, if you’re living somewhere where this doesn’t apply, I wouldn’t worry about it. There are things people in rural areas can (theoretically, depending on which rural area) do to curb their carbon footprint (consuming local agriculture comes to mind) and there are, I’m sure, people working on solving this issue for rural areas. The problem here I think is in this “all or nothing” mindset. As @anji@lemmy.anji.nl mentioned, this is a viable solution theoretically for nearly 80% of those living in one of the least climate friendly nations out there. This is also a viable solution for many (most?) countries, as most people live in cities. This is a solution for those people. For rural people, we will need different solutions. That’s all.
100% and I absolutely get that aspect. My original post was more about trying to find out what those rural solutions are since everyone commenting did keep saying things along the line of “all we need to do is __________”.
Not debating the effectiveness of what they’re suggesting, but also I’m allowed to ask what the other ideas are for those of us who are outside of the urban areas lol.
Then different solutions can be put in place in these places and/or you start with cities and figure out the country side later.
I think the bigger issue you have in the US is the sprawled neighbourhoods, I’m not sure how you can get back from that, maybe recreate small centers in the middle of them.
What are the different solutions? Genuinely asking. Seems like a large aspect to skip since it represents the majority of the US LOL
80% of Americans live in urban settings
Sure thing, so you’re saying a phased in approach that mainly focuses on the cities. I agree with that 100%. I’m just not a fan of people saying “that’s all we need to do” and our problems are all fixed. Because it excludes the vast majority of the areas where I am from and I’m wondering if people have solutions other than “build more infrastructure”. Everything else I agree with.
A part of the problem are zoning and parking space laws preventing businesses to open up where people live. If you cant be close to residential areas and have to have an insane number of parking spaces it is hard to operate a shop in small towns.
This, and also just the mass commercialization of everything. The majority of towns don’t have small businesses any more, it’s all chains…or they drive to the nearest Walmart. There was a good article in the NYtimes recently about this and how dollar generals are basically taking over in rural communities. There aren’t enough people in these towns to support a diverse set of businesses, so the businesses shut down and a Dollar General moves in because it covers most basic needs.
Provide regularly scheduled public transportation that feeds into denser urban areas. Make it easy to bike in denser urban areas.
So to provide regularly scheduled public transportation we would need to build out rail infrastructure to country areas? I suppose a park and ride system would be effective but what would still require a mass buildout.
I’m thinking of areas like this one I attached. The nearest cities are 1hr drive from most towns, the cities are all small-midsized so don’t have that many jobs (proportionally) in the first place. The solution is to put train stations in every town? Every other town? Then the cities themselves would need to build out rail infrastructure because Albany and Syracuse have very little in the way of public transportation.
Genuinely asking, not trying to come across as snarky. This is actually a middle-ground example. I could show you a map of WV or Western PA if you really want to see rural.
I mean…yes? Absolutely, improve rail infrastructure in Albany and Syracuse. Build park and rides at places that feed into that improved system. Improve bus service (or train? Looks like there are already tracks in many places) along higway corridors with moderately sized communities.
Can counties or cities currently afford this without sacrificing something? No.
Would the federal government and states need to spend hundreds of billions, if not trillions, over several decades to make happen? Yes.
Yeah the track system is largely in place (not sure if freight or passenger). I’m not trying to argue lol. I’m just asking questions. So in your world there would be a mass spiderweb of intersecting trains that sprawls out to everywhere (obviously a kind of park and ride situation) and that would feed into the cities or other communities.
Makes me think about the whole idea of the Green New Deal that Sanders was talking about when he ran the first time. Get a giant workforce of people out there building railways and stations. Would be interesting to see for sure.
For sure for sure, not saying it’s easy! Different solutions include public transports (trains, buses, etc), electric bikes + appropriate paths, electric/hydrogen vehicles, car pooling, offsetting emissions some other way, etc etc.
It’s also about having towns and villages that are “self-sufficient” to a degree where you don’t need to drive to the huge mall or whatever on the regular, and can just pick up the groceries for tonight’s dinner on foot/bike (and yes that means having smaller supermarkets with less choice, but they’re closer! It’s great).
Truthfully even in the Netherlands (where I live) once you get to the countryside every household has a car as well, we do too, living in a rural area. But we can still go do our grocery shopping, and most other things on foot/bike. The car is still necessary for work and getting to some other places though.
And that’s also mainly because we don’t have a train station here and my work takes me to random addresses daily with heavy equipment.
Anyway another part of my point was that if you don’t have a good solution for countrysides, then that shouldn’t stop y’all from moving forward with solutions in city centers and suburban areas.
Yeah for sure. I love looking around the world at different examples including you guys. I grew up in a very rural hilly area so it’s just what I think of first. Completely agree that we should make the changes we can make and figure the rest out later.
Yes, but even in the US, most trips are so short in distance, they could easily be done by bike.
There will always be trips and distances for which a car is the best option. It’s fine to take a car then. The call is to take a bike when a bike is feasible, which is way more often than currently. Not for all people, but for a whole lot.