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who the dick would want to see Threads posts
There are lots of people on there I would like to follow, but they wont be joining the fediverse and I don’t want to make a Threads account myself either.
Me. Are there any small instances that won’t defed?
get the block
…OK then? I don’t see any incentive to block me because I don’t think EEE can happen?
Lots of illustrators and writers have Threads and Instagram because it’s where the money is. They rely on that kind of exposure to sell and show their work. Following from Mastodon without a Threads account would be awesome.
Not to mention that many Mastodon users are ridiculously “purists” saying that no ad or sell should be on the network, ever, and are actively hostile to the small guys trying to make a living here. I agreed that big corps can fuck off because they overdo ads, but the small guy selling his weird contraptions or custom phone cases should see Mastodon as an alternative. But the truth is that they won’t.
People are delusional. Most books sell less than 5000 copies their entire lifetime. Most illustrators are LARPing freelancers who get paid in exposure.
Source?
If it helps kill twitter?
Meet the new Twitter, same as the old Twitter.
I assume that people with those attitudes “miss what Twitter used to be.”
Miss me with that shit, Twitter was always a shithole and Jack Dorsey was always a Nazi-protecting piece of shit.
Zuck and Meta ain’t no better.
Wow, both instances I’m on (Lemmy and Mastodon) blocking Threads. I’m proud of my admins!
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People keep parroting that Threads will kill us all but won’t explain how it could happen to the fediverse. As in, actual steps. Because Flipboard federated and I’m not flooded with news posts. Mastodon is used for Nazi instances and I’m not flooded by Nazi content, even if the maintainer don’t block that particular instace due to not knowing it exists.
No, XMP is not a valid example. It requires specific people to be on that specific platform for you to connect with them, like iMessage and WhatsApp. The fediverse is nothing like that.
Can someone explain exactly how EEE will happen? Technically? Other than FUD?
EDIT: thank you all for the replies, there’s definitely some good points that are worth considering that I couldn’t find elsewhere.
Here’s an example I can see happening.
Threads will want to implement post reactions to maintain parity with Facebook. Threads expands the ActivityPub spec to include reactions.
Now, every other instance will not be compatible with reactions. Users complain they cannot see reactions.
Admins have two choices now:
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Refuse to implement reactions because they are not part of the spec. Users leave and join threads.
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ActivityPub adds reactions to the standard, all instances must now support reactions. Meta has now started dictating the spec.
I feel the XMP fears do have some sentiment, and it’s really a matter of how the broad username interprets these issues (including the Thread users which would be family and friends).
I don’t think so. There are tons of ActivityPub implementations out there already that don’t even support all parts of the official spec (Lemmy can’t display attached images, for example). There are also implementations that have tacked on additional functionality beyond the official spec (again, Lemmy’s downvotes).
It’s a very flexible protocol that allows developers to pick and choose what features they want to implement in their services.
There are tons of ActivityPub implementations out there already
but none are widely used by such a massive amount of people as threads, and especially people who don’t understand/care about spec compliance or even how federation works
honestly, i think in the best scenario, threads will create their own activitypub “fork”, and most instances won’t want to follow it, forcing the people who were on non-threads instances to chose between going to threads to keep in touch with their threads mutuals, or staying on non-threads instances and no longer having a reliable way of keeping in touch with those people.
worst case would be instances following what meta does and making them the spec dictators pretty much, the spec would become closed source and all other fedi implementations would lag behind in features compared to threads, and they can at any point change the spec and break other instances.
i think the point of defederating with threads isn’t just the defederation, but is about sending a message that we don’t want to play their game, we want to keep doing our things our ways. if they want to interract with the fediverse, they’ll have to play by our rules, we don’t want to follow theirs
There is an assumption that any changes or additions Threads may make to their implementation of ActivityPub beyond the official spec will break compatibility with other instances. It won’t though, that’s the point I was trying to make above.
Any additions they may want to make can absolutly be added on top of the existing official spec without breaking compatibility. Lemmy has downvotes but can still read comments and posts by Mastodon users. Mastodon users can post to Lemmy communities. You can see Pixelfed pictures on Kbin. Kbin posts can be read on Misskey. Misskey posts are visible on Mastodon.
All of these services have features that don’t exist elsewhere, built outside of the existing spec, but the core content is all interoperable. Anything Threads may want to add can be done without destroying spec compatibility. Sure, they could still make a change that intentionally breaks compatibility, but why would they? Theres nothing in it for them. No one who’s here is going to leave just because the Threads users are gone. The Threads users are already absent and we’re all still here.
Sure, they could still make a change that intentionally breaks compatibility, but why would they?
This is the kind of naivety that gets us deepthroated.
If they’re “definitely not going to” then they don’t need the power to, yes? They should agree to our terms.
No one who’s here is going to leave just because the Threads users are gone.
I’m only here, specifically here, because communities I liked on Reddit pulled me. Granted, I like it here, but no platform is worth more than its content. If people get used to threads and threads leaves, people will leave with threads.
Ah, so kind of like how one would filter out unwanted messages on a Kafka topic? Makes sense
Yeah, that’s great when it’s a coalition of roughly equal platforms. What happens when a platform thousands of times the size of the others starts making demands?
I don’t see why the size of the user-base matters here. Why would Lemmy’s developers feel the need to implement these hypothetical reactions just because Threads does? Why would Mastodon? They’re not making demands, they’d be making changes just like everyone else. Everyone else could choose to add support for reactions or not. Things would still function without them.
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i just want to point out that, in the same way XMP is not a valid example of EEE, neither is Flipboard a good example of a massive megacorp federating. Flipboard’s algorithms have never incited violence in Myanmar and that makes 100% of the difference.
my concern is not EEE, and I agree that i don’t get why that’s the focus.
my concern is that we are dealing with Meta—an absolutely massive, soulless corporation which has shown dozen upon hundreds of times that it will prioritize the growth of its shareholders’ paycheck well before the afterthought of caring if its algorithms end up wreaking addiction and violence.
call that FUD if you want, i call it learning from well-documented experience.
Again, you’re not actually making an argument about meta doing anything to make the fediverse worse than it is, you’re not even arguing that metas actions in those other situations are directly applicable and will happen here, you’re just saying “look at these bad things that Meta did before, sure other bad things must happen”.
That is the literal textbook definition of a FUD argument.
Let’s flip this around: Show me a thing that Meta has touched that hasn’t turned to shit. Why risk the same fate when we don’t have to? What is meta bringing to the table that would warrant foolhardiness on our part?
See the opposite of FUD is naivete, hubris, make-believe, not something one wants to be engaged in either.
I still really enjoy Beat Saber, I think it continues to improve
speaks volumes that a rythm game was the only example we could come up with from a company that has literally billions at its disposal lol
It was just the first thing that came to mind, but I know they also contribute to / fund the Blender Foundation.
Maybe 10k Euro a month, eyeballing from total amount and the fuckton of other donors. Two entry-level developers (blender indeed pays well starting at 58000 Euro p.a.). They should rather take that money and hire some moderators in Myanmar.
Honestly, lots of PC gaming fans are unhappy with Oculus focusing on the broad consumer market, but the Q2/Q3 are genuinely impressive pieces of hardware/software and are the first devices to actually meaningfully push VR even somewhat into the mainstream.
Huh, if only there was an example of Meta existing on a decentralized platform where I could choose to visit them and interact with their stuff but I didn’t have to.
Oh huh, would you look at that, turns out this little decentralized network called the worldwide web has been running it this whole time!
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But in the scenario of lemmy / mastodon, you only ever interact with your chosen frontend / instance and it only communivates to facebook through activitypub not through the general web standards. Even if facebook were to just embed a bunch of js code as an activitypub text feed, your chosen instance would still have to choose whether or not to render it by default, or to give you the option, or to block it entirely.
It’s like people don’t want to email people with Gmail addresses because Google at some point killed off XMPP*, in fearing that email altogether would be killed off.
- which it didn’t even do, XMPP was a terrible protocol by itself already.
That’s a pretty good example actually. React has been a boon to webdev imo, and I love using it. Yarn too.
Don’t forget the less sexy stuff like watchman
“the leopard bit my hand the last 14 times i pet it, but it’s FUD to learn from the past so here goes number 15 :)”
Waving a pithy saying around in place of an actual argument, doesn’t make it any less of a FUD argument. I mean can you even name 14 open source projects that facebook has destroyed? Or just 14 bad vibes you’ve gotten?
omg you think im pithy ☺️
There’s no good product that Meta has ever touched that’s been made better after their involvement. Why go for bat for a company that has consistently shown it’s goal is to make things worse for the end user?
I’m not going to bat for them, I’m just not spreading FUD and getting whipping myself into a panic over a non issue.
Again, I urge you to stop using FUD generalities like “they have the midas touch of poop, everything they touch turns to poopy”, and present an actual grounded explanation of how federating with them will cause an actual problem.
Well look, I don’t have enough insight into the design or backend for Lemmy or mastodon, but Facebook has heavily invested into their network, and likely aims to grow.
How could they do that? All of this seems blockable on the client end (meaning I’m not good/shitty enough to work at Facebook) but imagine:
- an algorithm takes a selection of high ranking fb posts and cross-posts to Lemmy, far faster and more frequently than regular users. Oh, you’ll need to login to read.
- threads could wholesale repost other users and their comments, but behind a threads login wall
Basically do some scummy behavior using our public statements, questions and comments, all to get more attention devoted to what’s happening on their site (and its associated ads).
an algorithm takes a selection of high ranking fb posts and cross-posts to Lemmy, far faster and more frequently than regular users. Oh, you’ll need to login to read.
So what? The Lemmy meme communities make posts way faster and more frequently than any other communities. Did I solve that by demanding my instance admin not federate with those instances or communities? No, I just unsubscribed from them.
And if Threads send encrypted / locked posts to Lemmy that cant be read on Lemmy clients then you just defederate from them then.
threads could wholesale repost other users and their comments, but behind a threads login wall
So? How does Threads forcing their users to sign in make your experience using Lemmy any worse?
No need for an antagonistic tone here, just conversing with you.
I think this would be a problem now for people like me who enjoy browsing all, where the feed would get overwhelmed by facebook-sourced content.
And I don’t like meta as a company, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that many people do not want to provide any data whatsoever to them via threads etc.
And I don’t like meta as a company, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that many people do not want to provide any data whatsoever to them via threads etc.
Except that you’re posting publicly and there is absolutely nothing that prevents Meta from scraping all of your lemmy activity as it is.
Precisely my 2nd point.
How could a company that sells data misuse or sell our data? It is the people who are wrong because I am not capable of critical thought
And yet you haven’t explained “how”, you repeated a few buzzwords. If they want to “steal data” they are able to by simply creating their own instance.
What specifically will they do / can they do, to tank the fediverse?
Others have given technical ways fb can eee, but I’m more concerned about rapid uncontrolled growth and corporate political sanitization.
Say you have a community dedicated to pointing out corporate greed. Your community federates with threads and wow it’s really taken off suddenly you have gone from hundreds of up votes to tens of thousands of them. Wow this is great, but huh, why has my post about Facebook only got 3 up votes. Huh why does the word communism spawn a 200 comment chain of alt righters yelling. Why is there an obviously sponsored post at the top. Why is everyone saying “unalived” and using 🍉 instead of 🇵🇸.
I highly highly recommend reading this post: https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
It’s just not in their interest to be a normal part of the fediverse. It’s in their interest to compete with mastodon. Mastodon is not competitive because it doesn’t have billions of dollars in its budget.
EEE works the way it always has. Add features not present in Mastodon that only work on threads. People want those features and join threads, Mastodon users are missing out. Long time Mastodon users create a second Threads account so they can interact properly with their friends, and eventually abandon their old Mastodon account.
I used Mastodon but the same applies to firefish etc, any fediverse technology that will interact with threads. It probably won’t impact Lemmy.
I’ve also yet to see a technical explanation for how defederating would have the slightest effect on hindering whatever plan they have.
Not having to participate in the decline.
Whole point of fediverse was to get away from all that shit, why let them crawl in?
Thank god my admin blocked them outright
Same with mine! I don’t think it was ever considered an option not to, and I madly respect that
Same with lemmy.ca
My god. Can you imagine taking < 30 seconds to just do it yourself? You might have died.
Saying federation is the same as bootlicking is fucking bullshit. I want my insurance to defederate, but this is ridiculous exaggeration
I want my insurance to defederate
Yeah, State Farm needs to get their shit together
Goddamn autocorrect :)
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It’s literally a picture of licking boots, wtf you on about
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i like ridiculous exaggerations though :)
by overthrowing her punches the rhetoricist ensures her punches land with all audiences
That is an awesome image. He’s into it.
i honestly don’t get the hate. i love the fact that i wont need two apps anymore to see the more mainstream people i used to follow on twitter. tje worst part about twitter going under is the fragmentation.
I understand you, but I specifically went to lemmy to not have any of that bullshit from Musk or Zuck or Spez. Facebook is a toxic dumpster fire(on purpose because money) Twitter is a toxic dumpster fire (because Musk is an asshole). Reddit is basically the same but the ceo is still an asshole. And I am sure that after a few years threads will follow this trend soon.
true but you wouldn’t be interacting with it unless you follow specific users or go into the global timeline
idk there are a handful of Reddit communities I miss, I would love to be able to follow them here, ad free, without a Reddit account.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
It’s happened so many times, and every time people thought “this time it’s different”.
People keep parroting this but won’t explain how it could happen to the fediverse. As in, actual steps. Because Flipboard federated and I’m not flooded with news posts. Mastodon is used for Nazi instances and I’m not flooded by Nazi content, even if the maintainer don’t block that particular instace due to not knowing it exists.
Care to explain exactly how EEE will happen?
EDIT: thank you for those who took the time to write a clear and technical responses, there are really good point worth considering that a didn’t read anywhere else.
From what I’ve heard it might be something like this:
- Embrace: Threads federate w/ mastodon
- Extend: Convince people to join their server via an exclusive feature or popularity or whatever
- Extinguish: Once people move over to Threads, defederate.
From a more technical standpoint, I believe the idea is more like:
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Embrace: Adhere to the fediverse standards to make Threads compatible and be a part of the overall userbase.
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Extend: Add more functionality to the standard so that thread users get functionality that other fediverse users do not. This is where they would make it difficult for open-source devs to try and implement the same features in their software.
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Extinguish: Finally, when enough of the userbase has been siphoned to their proprietary platform, cease compatibility with the fediverse and leave the old standard to die.
So basically the same thing you said. We can sort of see this with Google trying to make websites only be compatible with Chrome.
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even when you do federate with an instance, the global timeline isn’t the default timeline - unlike places like twitter; you have to explicit go into the global timeline to see federated posts.
the only time you interact with other users is if you follow them or if they replace to public/unlisted posts.
You keep parroting this to try and distract people from walked, tried, tested History. As in, actual steps that happened. And asking to be “explained” how History happened. That’s called sealioning.
How about this, good faith way Facebook will still destroy everything
Facebook does one way, minimal federation. Facebook trash content makes its way around the fediverse, but things are mostly the same. Vigilance goes down
Facebook does complete federation, but at the same minimal level. Threads users now get to vote and comment on some fediverse content. This is the peak benefit to the fediverse
Facebook slowly ramps up data flow in both directions. The fediverse has smaller numbers and minimal tools to manage federation.
Facebook has an algorithm, a complex system to manage content to maximize for time/interaction/tolerance to ads.
Threads content will have far higher metrics that will impact our basic sorts, because the algorithm picks winners and losers. Fediverse content shown on threads and chosen by the algorithm also blows up
The various fediverse projects scramble for solutions. They might change up the sorting algorithms to adjust, some try to manage federation granularly (such as not counting threads votes, or treating their content differently). But they need tools that handle granular federation across the board, and they need it without breaking compatibility with activity pub… Every change will roll out slowly, and it’s a very complicated problem.
Threads can update whenever they want, and can change how they federate far faster and more easily, because they’re a centralized platform just deciding how they want to push and pull from external sources.
Some might cut off federation at this point, and users are pissed off they kept being shown the same content, and now are getting even less content.
Others are pissed that their feeds feel like Facebook.
This is the best case scenario… Just like Bitcoin or Tor, a decentralized network can be manipulated by any party who owns over a certain percentage of the network. They’ll be able to control which content we see on the fediverse, because their numbers and algorithm will overwhelm our own.
They could also attack the standard and use standard EEE practices, but even if they don’t, they’ll enshittify the fediverse just by nature of the connection
They just want to exploit the data to help genocides happen like they always do
That’s not true… Sometimes they just want to sell democratic elections to the highest bidder
but that doesn’t really happen in a decentralized model.
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
That’s exactly what happens in a decentralized model.
Stop posting this unless you have an actual argument as to why it’s not just FUD. This dumbass blogpost has been debunked over and over and over again.
Google Talk didn’t kill XMPP.
XMPP didn’t have a significant user base, Google Talk did, so while Google Talk supported XMPP, other open source XMPP clients got to ride their coattails and interact with a huge community and it felt like XMPP was thriving, when in reality Google Talk was what users cared about, not whether or not it connected to the rest of the minor XMPP networks, so when Google Talk decided to stop using XMPP, their users didn’t care or switch and XMPP died.
But that’s fundamentally not because Google killed it, it’s because Google was the only thing keeping it alive.
the internet/web itself is a decentralized model and yet think of how often you see a website that “only works/works best on Google Chrome”
That’s because developers making websites don’t want to bother to test their thousands of lines of application code on a bunch of different browsers… is your argument that Threads will join the fediverse and then people arent going to test whether their 150 characters of text will work with Lemmy before posting and then all us Lemmy user’s are going to quit because it’s simply too much for Lemmy to render 150 characters of text and maybe an image?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen that though. Can I get an example?
Gov websites
Which ones? I’m on the VA one and USAjobs quite a lot and have had no issues with Firefox.
A link would be helpful.
But tbh that’s not a great example. If we’re talking an about orgs like the DoD, they have a horrendous track record. Some of their shit still required IE after it was deprecated.
I was in the Air Force and worked as a contractor for years after.
I only ever see it on Google’s own websites (who woulda guessed) e.g. Google Earth
there are very few sites that work on chromium but not on gecko or webkit, though.
Try setting up a personal email server in 2024 and tell me afterwards how fun the experience was
You don’t need two apps even if your instance defederates
I don’t need any sort of isolationism pushed on me. I wouldn’t sign up for an email provider that blocks GMail because “we’re not corpo bootlickers”, or a phone provider that only lets me call the coolest fellow comrades. If an instance wants to be its own little island with its own ideology, I’m cool with that, but it’s not for me - I’m looking for an instance that behaves more like an un-opinionated public utility.
i think i’d 100% agree with you if: a) the fediverse wasn’t majority public facing b) meta’s past failures hadn’t impacted the material conditions and safety of real people
i get your comparisons to gmail and phone providers, but to me those two differences are fundamental. gmail is private, your phone is private, but social media is public and can be used to stir up massive misinformation campaigns, harrassment, or calls to violence.
on the same level, if any evidence that gmail or my phone provider had willingly participated in calls to violence which resulted in rape and murder, i also would want that institution to be excluded in order to guarantee the safety of my local instance’s members as well as to stop letting them profit from my existence on a federated platform.
these are the key differences that i am taking into account when i call for not federating with meta on a majority scale. what are your thoughts on them?
I think these are fair points. and I can’t say I blame anyone for wanting Meta/FB out of their life entirely. I see value in both options - the option of having maximum connectivity to others, and the option of having only parties that are considered to be in good ethical standing. And I’m glad the fediverse can offer both options to everyone. For me personally, having communications cut between users based on who is hosting their instance is a last resort.
I see your point but I think you might not know all the reasons for defederation. There is nothing wrong with wanting to interact with people on other platforms of course.
However, Meta is a huge company and it is not in Meta’s interest to have an open fediverse with many diverse platforms. Platforms like instagram are notoriously predatory walled gardens. They grow until there is tons of people on them and they have a quasi-monopoly, then they crank up ads, force people to make an account and/or download an app to see content. Their content cannot be seen from elsewhere.
If their services have been closed off in walled gardens until now, why would they suddenly shift and want to support ActivityPub? Mastodon is big but not big enough that people feel they are missing out by being on other platforms. I doubt they expect to attract significantly more users that way. They want to create a way to become part of the fediverse through their platform. Given the sheer amount of money Meta has, they will then make Threads the most bestest and easiest way to do microblogging on the fediverse. Find a mastodon instance? ugh what a hassle, just join Threads. Then they can start adding features that mastodon and firefish don’t have. People will switch to threads for these features, and voila, the age old strategy of embrace-extend-extinguish is done.
Even if we assume that is not their motive, the fediverse is about open, democratic and collaborative social media. Those values are directly opposed by Meta’s entire business model (and their business itself which is generating shareholder profits). Now if some small company was part of the fediverse who cares, but Meta is a huge behemoth and IMO we’re better off building a world without them, rather than inviting them into it to compete against largely volunteer-built software. Let’s learn from the past.
I probably wouldn’t use an instance if it wasn’t federated to Threads
Same. I’m glad the ‘default’ instances are federated, since I want to follow a bunch of folks on threads. And I’m glad that I dont have to give up my personal info to zuck to do that.
Wasn’t federated, or was federated?
I’ve always got to invert the double negatives to parse crap like this:
I probably would use an instance if it was federated to Threads.
Not exactly the same meaning, but it gets you on the right side of the negatives.
Yup, that’s what I meant, but like you said, it doesn’t carry the exact same meaning if I wrote it like that
I understood the meaning. I was clarifying the point OP was trying to make because I 100% disagree with it as worded.
Best way to address this is to reword a bit:
I probably would
not useavoid using an instance that wasn’t federated to ThreadsUsing “not” twice in a single sentence is generally something worth avoiding IMO.
I don’t think there’s a good reason to avoid threads so long as it contains good and interesting users, and isn’t making huge demands from your users.
the “huge demand from your users” will immediately be having to deal with meta’s attrocious history with moderation and user safety being repeated.
honestly my threads feed is pretty good and i havent noticed too many issues with the things that plagued twitter. the trans community is pretty big on threads too which is nice.
I wonder if you can whitelist certain users, rather than the entire server
It doesn’t though? Facebook’s employers and users are 100% garbage people.
If you think everyone who uses facebok is garbage then the problem is you, you’re a misanthrope.
I probably am a misanthrope, but that doesn’t change the fact that anyone remaining on Facebook, Twitter, or even Reddit at this point, are bots, corporate shills, misinformation campaigns from enemy nations, or the idiots who have looked around at what’s going on with their platform and went “Yeah I’ll keep using this.”
lol so my grandma is a garbage person because she hasn’t rage deleted her facebook account and setup shop on some federated instance where absolutely none of her family and remaining friends are while having to learn some completely new & often actively hostile interface. alright
Yep. Knowing grandparent aged people, probably for more reasons than that.
am already escape facebook
Exactly. And if they can’t behave, we can always defederate later. I don’t see the rush.
I should probably migrate my mastodon.social account, even though I barely use Mastodon. Any recommendations for cool servers with cool people?
i see a lot of fun over at wetdry.world
Run your own if you can and use something like Akkoma that’s lighter on resources
I just see so many disadvantages on running your own instance:
- First and foremost, you need to rent a webserver and a domain.
- Then, you need to setup SSH and TLS, and to configure your server as to lessen the chances of you getting hacked/DOSed, and setup some failsafes in case someone still manages to hack you.
- Then you finally install the Mastodon/Pleroma/whatever and configure it to your liking.
And after all of that, many issues may still pop up at any time. What if your instance can’t federate with others? And what if you get DDOSed? Lots of things can happen, and none of them seems fun.
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what about a server that defederates with threads but federates with servers that dont defederate with threads
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How would that prevent Meta from doing the bad things?
They’re welcome to enshittify their own corner of the Internet, like everyone else, but we won’t have to see it.
As I still see that lemmy.world didn’t block Zuck, it seems that it’s time to change instance
Threads and Lemmy will barely interact unless someone on threads deliberately tries to interact with Lemmy, calm down 🤣
I did the same. I had been donating to Ruud since just before reddit destroyed the 3rd party apps. I stopped that and moved to lemm.ee for now. Chose them because they are defederated from Threads, allow downvotes, and community creation.
Edit: Was unhappy with lemm.ee due to their federation with tankies. Feddit.de is the only instance I could find that was defederated from Threads, lemmgrad, and hexbear.
Re they already being federated?
