Well yeah Andy Ngo does literally hang out with fascists so that’s a given lol
It was so frustrating watching some people treat him like he was anything close to a real journalist. He’s just the designated propagandist.
Many issues with this headline, but one of them is the word journalist, which implies some form of neutrality. The headline should either be a L out a journalist that writes about antifa, or a pro-facism activist. I suspect from the context (Fox) that it’s the latter.
I believe that’s Andy Ngo, so yes, absolutely a pro-fascist activist. He was caught on camera actively coordinating with Patriot Prayer, a far-right extremist group.
journalist, which implies some form of neutrality
Oh, my sweet summer child
if they’re not neutral, they’re not journalists. A fascist journalist is just a fascist after all.
In an ideal world you’d be right
In reality that’s not actually a requirement to be one
Fair point. It sucks, but it’s true.
Everybody has some sort of bias towards something. It’s ultimately just an opinion.
Journalistic integrity isn’t about being non-biased, it’s about being upfront about bias and ideally the journalist actively trying to counter their own bias within their work.
The vast majority of journalists work for some sort of publication or news agency, in which they’re beholden to the company owners’ agenda and have to report to an editorial board, which decides what can and can not be published in accordance with their views.
You’re thinking of independent journalists, of which there are very few.
And even them have their own biases, no such thing as unbiased journalism.
True, but not for the reasons that most people think.
Ok, the fact that you honestly believe this is how legitimate newsrooms work is both deeply disheartening and an indication of how little the average person knows about the news business.
Editors decide what gets published, not the editorial board which is an entirely different and unrelated body that traditionally has zero contact with the content side of things. In the business we say that there is a “firewall” between the editorial board and actual news content. The NYT or WaPo would have mass resignations of their reporters if either of their editorial boards tried to influence content.
Ownership is a bit different and obviously --as we know from the Murdoch empire-- can influence content, but in traditional operations they’ve always been very hands-off. It’s a fact, for example, that Jeff Bezos doesn’t care what the WaPo publishes and has no interest in it beyond as a business concern.
Editors do have control over content, but overwhelmingly they are concerned with doing a good job and furthering their careers and professional reputations. You’re completely misunderstanding the incentive structure in mainstream news media. Outside of the extremist advocacy journalism ecosystems --mostly but not only on the far right-- no one has any incentive to push an agenda and risk ruining their career by getting something important wrong.
Ah yes, it’s only the evil right wing news outlets that have issues with transparency and corruption, but don’t worry, all the left wing ones are totally honest.
And all billionaires are evil exploiters… unless they own liberal newspapers, then they’re totally ethical and there is no grounds for concern.
Unfortunately advocacy journalism is very much a legitimate type of journalism, just ask Glen Greenwald, who I fuckin’ hate.
It’s crazy how many people just on this meme think antifa is an actual organization. 🤦
How else they are paying their demonstrators money for each demonstration?
Soros, Bill Gates and the Bilderbergs, I guess? Probably also that Davos guy who Alex Jones et al TOTALLY aren’t fixated on for antisemitic reasons either, nuh-uh!
/s in case it isn’t abundantly clear
It’s a movement, isn’t it? That’s still a form of organization.
No it’s not. It has no members. It had no leaders. It’s just an idea. What do you think an organization is?
A movement can have members and leaders even without formal organizational hierarchy. It just won’t look the same as something like a corporation, nonprofit, or government. The person who noticed that the Proud Boys were coming to town and rallied people to a counter-protest? Definitely a leader. The people who show up on a cold rainy Saturday instead of staying indoors with a warm cup of tea? Members. Just because membership and leadership is more amorphous doesn’t mean it isn’t there in some form.
The person who noticed that the Proud Boys were coming to town and rallied people to a counter-protest? Definitely a leader
Nahh you got that wrong. What usually happens is that a lot of people who are into politics (which left-extreme people often are) hear about this at the same time (through some press release, some proud boys twitter account who’s rallyin their followers, etc.).
From that point the information spreads over friendsgroups, small discords, tweets, whatsapps, in person, slowly but steadily.
Any left-extreme person who hears this immediately thinks “I’m mad, I wanna show those guys that they’re not welcome”. Granted, some of us think about much more extreme things, but back to the point. The first reaction from that thought is often “is there a counter protest?”. People are then doing the same thing but the other way around, as now everyone is trying to find some tweet, event, whatsapp message screenshot, whatever, of someone saying where the meeting point for an event would be. If none are found, someones gonna create something, which is usuqlly someone who’s got a lot of connections with other left-extremists. Often there’s multiple people creating the same counterprotest, which gets super messy at times, but somehow everyone manages to meet up in some general spot.
Worst case you just have a bunch of friends groups going to the meeting spot of wherever the initial event is happening.
That’s “the antifa”. A massive network of friends and friends of friends of friends who are all pretty aligned in their political views (which is “fuck Nazis”) but who often don’t know more then 5 other antifacists.
Often there’s multiple people creating the same counterprotest, which gets super messy at times, but somehow everyone manages to meet up in some general spot.
This is kind of my point, in a way. It was maybe simplistic to use one person. There is leadership, but there are many leaders, and they don’t have a badge with “Antifa CEO”. Though someone really needs to make stickers with “Antifa CEO”. One of my former managers came from activist circles like antifa. She will always be my favorite manager because she is so great at making sure even shy people feel heard.
The NAACP?
People are just nitpicking the meaning of the word Organization. Antifa is an organization in a very loose definition of the word. If you want to be more accurate, you’d call it a Network. Organizations (in the stricter sense) has a single leader and has a very tree-like structure with more power on top (like Corporations!), which Antifa obviously is not.
Though you’re correct in that Antifa is a “movement”.
In my opinion it would be a movement if facism was the status quo. Given most people are discussing Western nations, which while adopting facism at an alarming pace; are not yet facist. Antifa is not a movement nor an organization. Since not being facist is the status quo and antifa means that you’re not going to support facism, in my opinion antifa is the current “establishment” and being facist is an effort to move the status quo. Aka a movement.
I find this comment thread horribly ironic, and I hope I can show you why without starting an argument because this is genuinely kind of funny.
Fascism is when a state achieves (or attempts to achieve) totalitarianism through corporatization. All corporations are chartered and controlled through the state, and private industry becomes corporatized.
One of the ways they did this was through legitimizing specific channels of distribution, and labeling all who take a more independent route as illegitimate. Farmers, for example, were coerced into selling their products to state distributors, and pressured out of independent channels. Likewise, farmers who weren’t part of the state organization were often treated with suspicion and derision.
Basically, if you were a _____ and did _____ things, but were not part of the _____ organization, then you weren’t a real ______ no matter how good you are at _____.
Anyway, antifa is a real thing that exists, and that’s the thing people here are talking about. They’re a group that has identifiable goals, and they work together under the label. It’s really funny to me that so many here are appealing to “they’re not even a real org” in the face of dissent, because that’s one of the most fascist mind sets that exist commonplace today.
There is a huge overlap between people who would participate in Antifa and Anarchists, so you can imagine the problems getting a structured organization setup and keeping on task and purpose.
I’m sure that’s part of it. Antifa is definitely not well structured, and anarchists could probably be opposed to any official organization.
Let me put it this way, the post talks about a journalist who investigates antifa, which the op of this comment chain mocked because they’re not an organization. But, this is an argument of semantics, and the post didn’t use that word to begin with. Regardless of what you call antifa, he’s trying to investigate and see what they’re about.
It’s a very dishonest way to deride people. If you don’t mind me asking, if you don’t think the word organization is appropriate, what’s better? I mean I just say group, can’t really be wrong going that general but it also doesn’t say much. Like, when you said “people who participate in Antifa…”, what type of thing are those people participating in?
It’s more of a cause or a movement than an organization. I guess I don’t know why that should be difficult to understand.
I think you missed the point.
Organizations do not necessarily require structure, association is a synonym for a reason. Decentralized organizations and associations are a thing. Decentralized workers solidarity movements and co-op/community strengthening initiatives can be/are “organizing” even if no one is in charge. You don’t need to be a member of a union or an official neighborhood association to be part of an organization, there just needs to be general or vague common intention among a group and something of a shared identity. You might not get as much done a fast when not structurally organized, but you also don’t not exist if your not a card carrying member. I don’t understand the desire to divorce Antifa from being an organization or even existing. It’s like saying that the Deadheads aren’t a real thing because no one was directing the vast majority of fans who packed up and followed the band across the country.
Oh so now you are arguing that deadheads were an organization too? Really? In what universe?
I haven’t argued anything before that post, but this conversation about the semantics of the word organization means is interesting to me. To answer your question, I’d say Yes? Deadheads were a group of people associating with each other under common interest and intent. They didn’t particularly have leaders or any hierarchical structure, but they gathered in locations of common interest (concert venues and the surrounding local) based solely on individual discussion and desire, participated in the event alongside and with the group, and almost everyone participating identified as a deadhead. I really don’t understand the problem with them falling under the edge of the umbrella of the term organization.
They were an organization when viewed as an association or society: in this case a voluntary association of individuals for common ends. Deadheads were a distinct subculture in and of themselves, and I don’t understand in what universe that wouldn’t qualify. Keeping with the musician fandom, I’d say the same for the Juggalo’s. Being on the outer edge of the Venn diagram is still part of the whole picture.
Lol you saying they are not? You are funny
Would you like to tell me the name of the official antifa organisation?
Obviously its Antifa© inc. Everyone learns that in first grade🙄
I seem to recall seeing a video or reading an article where they mention that the media turned antifa into a sort of separate word to warp its meaning. Instead of saying anti fascist, which has a clear meaning, they shortened it and changed the pronunciation ‘an teefa’ (something to do with which syllable you emphasise) so they could distort its meani g and demonise the word to make people think it was bad.
So now people dont realise antifa means anti fascist which is surely a good thing to be, and instead, they fear antifa as some kind of terrorist group, which is almost the opposite of what it is.
The funny thing is, as an outsider to this, living in the UK, our media doesn’t ever use the term, and when i heard it, my instinct was to look up its meaning. It’s interesting to me that i won’t know if i would have fallen for it if the media were using it in the same way over here to lead my understanding of its definition
I think Antifa actually started in the UK even before the Nazi’s. Eh actually not but they did fight against fascists in the UK as early as 1930.
The reason why we need antifa and why it’s hated by the mainstream is because the establishment is notoriously bad at stopping fascism. There is a long history of it. So besides liberal antifa that uses legal means like suing the KKK out of existence, the autonomous antifa is actually needed for the continued working of our democracy.
Antifa (Antifaschistische Aktion) under that name started in 1932 as action by the KPD to organise widest possible front against the nazis, in the face of SPD as a party being very reluctant to act against nazis. Many SPD members did joined, but as we know, their own party in reichstag made that futile.
Of course antifascist resistance is about as old as fascism or even older considering protofascists activity even before Mussolini coined the term, but the name itself is from 1932 KPD.
Afaik, the first Antifa were a coalition of left wing groups in Italy fighting fascists in the 1920s. They didn’t necessarily use the term but they were the first active anti-fascists so that counts in my book 🤷
As a side note, they were left to fight both the fascists and the royalists alone, since the Italian Liberals refused to get involved until it was clear who would win and then joined the fascists.
I think that is the lesson, liberals do not effectively fight against fascism because they are too desiring of orderly and calm and polite politics and too much powered by economic interests (bourgeois). So we actually rely on antifa as a social force. Neither the state nor the liberals will fight against it. At least that is my limited understanding of it, since this is never discussed about in mainstream media.
liberals do not effectively fight against fascism because they are too desiring of orderly and calm and polite politics and too much powered by economic interests
Absolutely 100% correct.
So we actually rely on antifa as a social force.
We need to, yes.
Neither the state nor the liberals will fight against it.
Right you are again!
At least that is my limited understanding of it, since this is never discussed about in mainstream media.
Seems to me you understand it perfectly but yeah, the mainstream media is for-profit and owned by billionaires who are often friends with or at least have common interests with the fascists, so they have very logical, if despicable, reasons to be hands-off about it.
But the shorthand and pronunciation Anteefa seems to be relatively new. I don’t recall the specific word before 2016.
They have a constant and desperate effort to invent words they can’t define that categorize their blind rage since they’re not allowed to say one that starts with N. “Woke” is the newest one.
Yeah that’s bullshit. There isn’t some secret cabal that’s in charge of US journalism anymore than there is in the UK. What really happens is that because the old news-media business models have been utterly destroyed by the Internet, there’s a giant and never-ending competition for audience and everyone knows that sensationalism sells.
You have a similar problem in the UK but it’s not as pronounced because the BBC is government funded and even though it’s far from perfect, it does set a kind of baseline. Your other big news organizations are just as bad as in the US though. Your tabloids are actually a lot worse than ours, which is saying something.
It was donald trump himself that started it
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52868295
And you know how.his followers hang on his every word. I mean, he literally incited a riot/assault on capitol.
I see your point, but i dont see how the old news being taken over by internet news changes who is in control of the narrative. I also dont think i was referring to any kind of “secret cabal.”
I was only saying that i heard or read somewhere that antifa was demonised in the media, and thats why so many think they are terrorists. If you ask most americans what antifa means, they don’t know. They only know the abbreviation ‘antifa’ and that they are scared of it.
Anti-antifa… That’s just fascism with extra steps.
“Fascist journalist fears for life.” I fail to see where the problem is. People would have been cheering this in 1945.
One problem is that what they’re calling him is completely inaccurate. “Journalist” implies impartiality, of at least content with a non-zero amount of truth.
Be careful when you punch a fascist. You might hurt your hand/wrist. Best to read up ahead of time.
Someone mentioned antifa at work the other day, and I said, “Antifa? I’m in. Shitting on fascists has been an American pass time for a century or better.”
The looks of shock and horror on my coworkers faces was quite the sight to behold.
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Ignorami. They’ve been propagandized into hating anti-fascists, that’s why they shortened it to antifa.
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Well, I can tell you, in Europe Extremist Voters switch without thinking twice between far left and far right.
Methods, Objectives and Goals are the same, just the arguments differ slightly.
Both hate the West, especially the US and Israel, both hate the way we live but without offering a better way. Both want to burn down the house just to see who survives. Only the Arguments differ, the left hate the people running their own society, the right hate the people running other society.
And always remember, Hitler was a National-SOCIALIST.
The “Socialist” in the NSDAP is only a honeypot so they could claim ground and voters who leaned socialist without much thought (“I’m a mill worker like my father before me, we have always voted socialist. Buuut that National-Thing sounds nice”). Same with the “A” which stands for “Arbeiter” (Workers).
There’s the same with the conservative party (CDU = Christdemokratische Union, Christ-Democratic Union) today. Lots of old people say “I’m a christian and that party has a C for ‘Christianity’ in its name.” In fact, their regional party in Bavaria, the CSU is more conservative. And you have three guesses what their “S” is for.
I’m anti-anti-antifa.
I’m anti-anti-anti-anti-antifa.
Stop it! Do you want another very long word? Cause that’s how you get very long words. How do you think got the word, antidisestablishmentteroistism?! I already had to learn that word, I don’t want to learn a longer one.
Welcome to germanic linguistics 101.
While I understand what you are getting at, for the record that’s not what linguistics is about at all.
Is this a reference to The Stanley Parable
I meant for it to be a reference to Archer’s, do you want ants. I’ll take either though, The Stanley Parable was great.
Oh Never finished The Stanley Parable, but I thought it sounded like a reference from it
That’s just antifa with more steps!
It’s more than just “fascist journalist”. Journalists report facts (at least that is what they’re supposed to do), any “blah blah journalist” is just “blah blah”
Also, fuck this guy, he doesn’t fear for his life, it’s just a made up story so they can again shit on those they hate.
He doesn’t fear for his life? There could have been deadly cement in that milkshake!
this is the kind of black and white thinking lemmy does best.
EDIT: i retract this statement. i was wrong
i was severely misinformed about what antifacism is. i was under the impression that “the antifa” was a group by itself instead of a mindset.
You’re not pro-fascist, you’re just against people trying to stop the fascists. Thank god for nuance.
i hate fascists with a passion, but i might not agree with how antifa acts. i do not have any experience with the group itself, i might even agree with them.
for example, i do not like how the last generation glued themselves to streets. that doesn’t make me a climate denier, does it?
EDIT: it seems i misunderstood what antifa is. i always saw it as “the group of violent extremist protesters that throw rocks and light up cars”
again, i am fully for doing everything i can against fascists. but violent protests don’t contribute, all it does is make your movement the next boogeyman.
I’m not pro Hitler, but did they really have to bully the poor man to suicide?
- @KptnAutismus, probably
There is no organization Antifa. It’s an ideology. So if you are against the ideology of anti fascism, what are you for?
i am against throwing rocks at police and lighting cars on fire in the name of antifascism. you don’t get taken seriously if you’re the one comitting arson.
Sounds like boot licking, man :(
Never forget the time a bunch of thugs burned officer Chris Dorner alive in a cabin.
There is no singular group called “antifa”. It’s a movement of loosely (at best) interconnected but independent, antifascist groups.
Also, we need all these groups. It’s them who usually organize rallies against racism, fascism, antisemitism, inhuman law proposals, et cetera. Also they organize all sorts of other actions against alt right, far right and (neo-)nazis, like disrupting their rallies and standing in the way of goon squads.
Antifa groups are damn important.I’m baffled as to what the point of this comment is, besides waffling about the virtues of not picking sides for not picking sides’ sake.
i have picked the side that’s stopping fascists. but the enemy of my enemy isn’t automatically my friend. i do not respect movents who are known for committing arson and battery regularly.
I see your edit above, i see the comments you posted after said edit, and I’m not sure you now actually got what antifa means. Especially the part about it not being a single, coherent organization doesn’t seem to get to you.
it did. but these smaller, unorganized groups are regularly holding violent protests around my area. and they identify with antifa.
i probably identify with the core values of what it means to be antifascist, but again, i don’t want to be seen as extremist and/or violent.
Yeah, sounds about true. All of the groups in your area are only about violence. Sure, bro.
Its not “the group”.If you look in left and right wing violence in most countries you’ll see a huge disparity, even after the right wing police has significantly biased the statistics. Most people in Antifa groups just go to demos, organize workshops and put political stickers up.
Thats alle the stuff Fox wants to villify, because they want people to be fascists.
Is a burning car really worse than fucking over the next 15 generations and the planet
Can’t talk, has leather in his mouth
How does burning a car improve anything? By what logic does not burning a car equal to “fucking over the next 15 generations”?
Misdirected rage, even if it’s initially for a good reason, doesn’t help anything. If there’s a house on fire, you pour water on that house, not one two streets over. You do the latter, you end up with two destroyed houses: one burned, the other flooded.
but violent protests don’t contribute
There is no alternative to fighting fascists with violence. You can’t have a nice talk with someone who is gunning down Jewish persons. You just shoot them in the face.
Someone supports fascists who want to genocide a group of people? Burning down their car is less than they deserve.
I invite you to learn more about the holocaust. The suffering cannot be put into words. There is no means too drastic to prevent something like it to ever happen again.
let me rephrase. violence not directed at fascists doesn’t contribute.
i was referring to innocent people’s property being destroyed.
if someone arsons a nazi, that’s perfectly reasonable to me.
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Might not agree with how antifa acts
I have no experience
^^^ this pattern shows up right before you make a poorly thought out comment. If you don’t have experience with something I’d expect your comment to be a question for someone who has.
Isn’t this the asian guy who doesn’t understand that white supremacists only like white people and claimed to be suing the CEO of Antifa for damages that never actually happened?
“the CEO of Antifa” lmao
I thought this was Asian Elon Musk
I’m guessing that means this is also the dude who claimed people threw cement at him, when it was a milk shake.
Then they claimed the milkshake had cement in it, so people pointed out things like sugar would keep cement from hardening.
Then the cops said they had no reason to assume it was concrete, and no one suggested it was, despite them and the guy being the ones who said it was concrete.
Eyup, that’s the guy. It was also around the time others on the right claimed that people were pouring gasoline into bags in order to make “Makeshift Molotv Cocktails”
When
- the whole point of a Molotov Cocktail is that it’s a makeshift weapon that the proletariat will always have access to as it’s just alcohol and fire
B) A plastic bag wouldn’t make for a good molotov cocktail as it would just fucking disintegrate and couldn’t be thrown that far of a distance, if any at all
Also, the cloth hanging over on to the side of the bag could melt the plastic, and then catch fire
Or it might just not break and spread
I get the point of misinformation isn’t that it needs to make sense, but some times I hear this stuff and wonder fucking why? At least try.
It just needs to be simple and easy to repeat, in as few words as possible.
Anti-antifa does not subscribe to the law of the excluded middle, so double negation elimination does not apply.
EDIT: This was a math joke, but I’m proud that it seems to have gone over so many heads.
It kinda does since, despite GOP talking points to the contrary, Antifa is not a terrorist group or even a group at all. It’s a movement with the sole purpose of opposition to fascism.
At best, being anti-antifa is being pro-fascist and the difference between that and being a fascist is miniscule if existent.
Is this some enlightened centrism shit? Lmao
Finally I understand what antifa means.
I am not American and have been out of the loop for years now.
It was deliberately shortened to antifa and pronounced in a different manner to let conservative news media separate antifa from anti-fascism.
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I thought antiga was some terrorist organization until I read this meme…
