This is what one guy said. It is not representative, as a lone data point, of all Jews, all Israelis, or the Israeli government. If you have more data points, feel free to share them, but this one Rabbi’s statement doesn’t prove any generalisation.
Serious question - where would we see signs of broad Israeli opposition to the genocide? I know Netanyahu is unpopular, but I don’t think the genocide is a major factor in that unpopularity.
Unfortunately, I don’t think you’ll find that as much anymore. One of understated but equally awful side effects of Hamas’ very successful pogrom is, in targeting who it did among the Israeli population, it pushed a lot of Israeli society currently in Israel hard right even beyond standard rally around the flag effects. The Israeli left and peace activist movement effectively died last year.
I don’t think we should sensationalize one rabbi talking out his ass but there’s a lot of other data points. Itamar Ben-Gvir (Minister of National Security) and Yoav Gallant (Minister of Defense) say genocidal shit all the time. They’re not random rabbis. South Africa’s case before the ICJ included a lot of direct quotes from leading government officials.
And look: I know that Hamas and probably every other Islamic fundamentalist group’s leadership has said equally awful shit (and worse shit, for that matter). Some of the Israeli quotes came at an extremely traumatic moment. But this is bigger than one rabbi. I don’t think it’s be hard to establish intent if Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, and Gallant end up getting tried for war crimes.
Edit: I just want to add that most Israelis (and the Jewish diaspora) do not support the current government at this point. They were having mass protests before Hamas attacked.
It takes willful ignorance at this point to not recognize that both Likud and Hamas have influential representation frothing at the mouth at the idea of ethnic cleansing of the other side.
It certainly isn’t all Palestinians or Israelis, it might not even be all of Likud or Hamas.
But the fact there’s agents advocating genocidal actions within the governments of each side of the conflict is pretty much indisputable at this point.
The fact a humanitarian crisis has become such a tribalistic litmus test is pretty ridiculous and gross. (And I’m referring to both ‘sides’ of that tribalism in case anyone thinks this is a unilateral criticism.)
I don’t think he speaks for all Jewish people or all people in Israel…as far as the government goes…he might not speak for them, but he’s definitely harmonizing. As far as data points go, I submit everything that had happened since 1967, with a very specific focus on the last ~5 months.
That rules out most of the Middle East, including Saudi Arabia.
While it would be nice to live in a world where strategic defense partnerships could be selected from better bedfellows, it’s not like there’s a plethora of good options to choose from in the area.
If it were up to me all arms sales to the Middle East would stop. I see absolutely no benefit to anyone within 1,500 miles of the Red Sea having access to so much as a single 9mm handgun cartridge.
While I agree in principle, I kind of get (especially after the invasion of Ukraine) why USINT has had a hard on for strategic opposition of Russia all these years.
I have a feeling if it was up to both of us we’d just not have arms sales or production anywhere and have those resources instead invested into research and development of things to help advance humanity. But in a world not up to either of us, I can understand hard choices even if they don’t sit well with me.
This is what one guy said. It is not representative, as a lone data point, of all Jews, all Israelis, or the Israeli government. If you have more data points, feel free to share them, but this one Rabbi’s statement doesn’t prove any generalisation.
Serious question - where would we see signs of broad Israeli opposition to the genocide? I know Netanyahu is unpopular, but I don’t think the genocide is a major factor in that unpopularity.
Unfortunately, I don’t think you’ll find that as much anymore. One of understated but equally awful side effects of Hamas’ very successful pogrom is, in targeting who it did among the Israeli population, it pushed a lot of Israeli society currently in Israel hard right even beyond standard rally around the flag effects. The Israeli left and peace activist movement effectively died last year.
I don’t think we should sensationalize one rabbi talking out his ass but there’s a lot of other data points. Itamar Ben-Gvir (Minister of National Security) and Yoav Gallant (Minister of Defense) say genocidal shit all the time. They’re not random rabbis. South Africa’s case before the ICJ included a lot of direct quotes from leading government officials.
I don’t know anything about this organization — I just found this on Google — but an NGO called Law 4 Palestine apparently has a database that seems to cite sources pretty well. https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
And look: I know that Hamas and probably every other Islamic fundamentalist group’s leadership has said equally awful shit (and worse shit, for that matter). Some of the Israeli quotes came at an extremely traumatic moment. But this is bigger than one rabbi. I don’t think it’s be hard to establish intent if Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, and Gallant end up getting tried for war crimes.
Edit: I just want to add that most Israelis (and the Jewish diaspora) do not support the current government at this point. They were having mass protests before Hamas attacked.
The he said/she said is getting really old.
It takes willful ignorance at this point to not recognize that both Likud and Hamas have influential representation frothing at the mouth at the idea of ethnic cleansing of the other side.
It certainly isn’t all Palestinians or Israelis, it might not even be all of Likud or Hamas.
But the fact there’s agents advocating genocidal actions within the governments of each side of the conflict is pretty much indisputable at this point.
The fact a humanitarian crisis has become such a tribalistic litmus test is pretty ridiculous and gross. (And I’m referring to both ‘sides’ of that tribalism in case anyone thinks this is a unilateral criticism.)
Yeah because it’s not like rabbis have any influence over a congregation of people or anything.
I don’t think he speaks for all Jewish people or all people in Israel…as far as the government goes…he might not speak for them, but he’s definitely harmonizing. As far as data points go, I submit everything that had happened since 1967, with a very specific focus on the last ~5 months.
The problem is this comment doesn’t exist in a vaccuum. It’s simply the latest statement along these lines.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/21/us-congressman-andy-ogles-stirs-outrage-with-gaza-comment-kill-them-all
https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/israeli-lawmakers-kill-all-palestinians-remarks-resurface
https://www.voanews.com/a/damascus-airstrike-said-to-kill-iranian-revolutionary-guards/7448161.html
https://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2014/07/14/mothers-of-all-palestinians-should-also-be-killed-says-israeli-politician
https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-genocide
Sure does make me think we shouldn’t have arms deals with theocracies though.
That rules out most of the Middle East, including Saudi Arabia.
While it would be nice to live in a world where strategic defense partnerships could be selected from better bedfellows, it’s not like there’s a plethora of good options to choose from in the area.
If it were up to me all arms sales to the Middle East would stop. I see absolutely no benefit to anyone within 1,500 miles of the Red Sea having access to so much as a single 9mm handgun cartridge.
While I agree in principle, I kind of get (especially after the invasion of Ukraine) why USINT has had a hard on for strategic opposition of Russia all these years.
I have a feeling if it was up to both of us we’d just not have arms sales or production anywhere and have those resources instead invested into research and development of things to help advance humanity. But in a world not up to either of us, I can understand hard choices even if they don’t sit well with me.