Codebender
But everything changed when the file nation attacked
And although his coding skills are great, he has a lot to learn before he deploys anything to production.
Thats rough, buddy.
My first coding project got axed.
What? Everyone else went on a code learning field trip with Zuko. Now it’s my turn.
Secret tunnel! Through the firewall!
Codesmith
Filerunner
Bugbreaker
Diskbringer
Clouddancer
Docwatcher
Screenweaver
IfElsecaller
'netward
Codesmith
The orders of the Devs Radiant must stand again
Technomancer
this is basically the 2000s “Code Ninja Wizard Monkey Robot” all over again.
spork!
Not engineer.
At least here in Germany, engineer is a protected profession. Other than that: All of the above.
Interesting. In the US, all kinds of jobs are called engineers
Yeah, same in the UK. Really annoyed me that the plumber, electrician… etc were all engineers. In Germany it’s as protected as calling yourself doctor, which ultimately affects how people view the profession and the salaries they command
I mean, it’s a protected term in Canada too but it doesn’t necessarily lead to higher salaries.
My cousin who’s an electrician made about as much as I did as an electrical engineer, and I left electrical engineering to be a software developer because it paid more. Engineering paid more than being an electrical technician / designer, but not by a huge amount.
I left aeronautical engineering to become a software “engineer” for similar reasons, salary and work culture. Actual engineering pays quite terribly in the UK, it’s a fair bit better in Germany or the US from what I hear.
US much better than Germany I’ve heard!
Software yes, actual no
It does not only dictate your professional life/status in Germany, being a doctor, your social as well. Someone I know got a postdoc in germany, no luck finding a place to live until they started asking their german collegues to call and saying “doctor so-and-so is looking for an appartment”. So, he gets one. The guy has a very long full name, so the nametag the landlord is gonna put on the postbox is way to long, but if you cut off the part where it says he is a doctor, it would fit. He insists to cut that part away, the landlord just refuses, says fuck your name and person basically, and cuts off part of his last name instead. Saying you are a doctor gets you first in fucking everything (maybe not lufthansa, then they just say ‘senators’ or something). Extremely class divided social society that.
Damn I’m surprised to hear that!
TBF some plumbers and electricians are qualified engineers, just not all.
Yeah it’s difficult for me to name my title in English 'cause the word doesn’t exist. I went to a technical high school, not university. (Not college!)
There are a few dick engineers working on the corner. Dickvelopers? Cockologists?
I believe job titles specifically are(were?) considered in exempt / non-exempt status for overtime.
Why Administrator is in a lot of titles also.
Hmmm. But all the people around me working in software studied multiple years in an Engineering field. In my case, I studied a 5-year industrial engineering and two masters afterwards; I feel very comfortable wearing the “software engineer” or more accurately “robotics engineer” badge.
During the 2008 recession, a lot of Uber drivers had engineering degrees. I guess we should start calling Uber drivers engineers too.
No, that’s precisely the opposite of my point. If you drive an Uber, you’re an Uber driver. People are “CEO” or “Judge” despite nobody having a CEO or Judge degree. Your profession is what you do, not what you happened to study in your teens to get there.
I understand your point now and I agree. Your colleagues that studied engineering became programmers. Why do people treat this as if that’s bad? It’s a beautiful profession.
I don’t think it’s bad, in fact I wonder the same. These are my colleagues because it’s the same path I took - I now work developing self-driving cars (I slowly transitioned from aerospace to manufacturing automation to robotics) and it’s the most rewarding job I’ve ever had, and it feels very much like engineering. I don’t care if I’m not a “manufacturing engineer” anymore; I really like my job and I like my title to reflect somewhat accurately what I do, but that’s the extent I care about it.
If you studied a technical science and do coding for that you may be allowed to be called ingenieur.
Unable to delete so editing instead. Leaving Lemmy.world due to privacy concerns.
How come they don’t count? They’re figuring out how the machines should work, for money. That’s engineering, right? (I’m an American mechanical engineer)
In Canada you have to be qualified and licensed to call yourself an engineer. There are people who can use the title “software engineer”, but it’s not the majority of people working in development.
Sparkling Technologist.
Softwareingenieur darf man sich nennen, wenn man ein mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliches Fach studiert hat, wo Informatik dazugehört. Somit ist Software Engineer oder Softwareingenieur die korrekte Berufsbezeichnung für alle mit einem Bachelor/Master oder höher in Informatik.
Dann muss man schon auch als solcher tätig sein, sonst nicht.
That is not entirely true. It’s a bit more complicated. Yes it is protected since the 1970s but it’s more of an academic title. You needed to study something that is “mainly” of technological or scientific nature. Basically befire the Bologna reform every student in Tec. Unis/FHs did get the title Diplom-Ingenieur. So the engineer part was literally part of your degree. This of course also true in case you studied IT. So yes there are many who call themselves IT engineers also in Germany. However it’s more of a philosophical question how much software development is actually engineering or rather craftsmanship.
They have to protect German engineering at all costs
It is in Canada too but that doesn’t seem to stop companies from using the term
Here in portugal too. But there is a specific engineering field which is informatic engineering? Software engineer essentially
I’m in tech and “computer programmer” has always sounded to me like a grandma phrase. Like how all gaming consoles are referred to as “the Nintendo” or “the game station”.
Has there been a programmer for anything other than a computer
angry domino logic programmer noises
Do you program domino logic on a electric board or on a computer?
Yes. And, by the way, “computer” was once the name of a profession, carried out by people.
Television programming? It’s a stretch, one might say a broad-casting of the term.
I remember telling my high school guidance counsellor I was planning on becoming a programmer. She looked at me, head tilted like a confused dog and asked what excited me about Event Programming (as in, planning and scheduling large in-person events).
That was the first time someone didn’t understand what I did for work, and it was about 5 years before I started doing it.
That’s funny, plain “programmer” would be my preferred term if it weren’t for the fact that non-tech folks think it sounds like menial work. I’ve landed on “software engineer” because that’s what my employer calls me and other people seem to understand a little bit, too.
I was hired with the official title “software engineer,” then I was noted in all unofficial org charts as a “SE/DE” (software engineer/data engineer), and recently my boss announced that I have had my title officially changed to “data engineer”. My job functions have not changed the entire time I’ve been here. I write Python, SQL, KQL and Pyspark scripts and have to fuck around with Azure architecture sometimes. So there’s not always clear delineation between these terms, anyway.
Lol, are you me? Job application said software engineer. 3 months after I was hired, it changed to data engineer with no changes to the work I do. I wasn’t even notified, just noticed on a random day that the role on my profile on Teams had changed. I also do Python, SQL, and Pyspark scripts, but use AWS instead.
I was hired as a Developer and a month or two in they changed our titles to Software Engineer because “It sounds better.” I’d have to say I agree!
Here in Canada you can’t call yourself an engineer unless you are a qualified and licensed engineer. So most people have to call themselves “developer”. When you see someone calling themselves a software engineer it should mean something.
- Viewport engineer.
- Browser-space technician.
- Microsoft painter-decorator.
- Inferior decorator.
- He-who-responds (on the bugs channel).
- Scope denier.
- Manager disappointer.
inferior decorator
This one is going in my dad joke arsenal. Thank you
Electron herder
I am the worst kind of programmer, I’m a Scope Inflator.
H.
Code monkey
Code monkey like Cheetos.
Code monkey like Tab and Mountain Dew.
Great song and free as in freedom.
Good show
Honestly, the longer I work in tech, the less confidence I have in anyone’s title. Even searching for a job, different companies have different ideas of what, pretty much everything is…
I’m more on the side of IT support (sysadmin/netadmim/systems engineer/network engineer/second/third level support/engineer/whatever tf)… And even looking for a job for myself, it’s a nightmare… Even mundane details about the job are messed up. I saw a posting for a “remote support technician”, by their definition, this was “remote” as in, not from an office. The job was on-site support for remote sites. I don’t even think it was an IT position, more like mechanical maintenance IIRC. So you were “remote” aka, not at their office, doing support (for something not electronic), as a “technician”.
It’s bullshit all the way down.
When I was last looking for a job someone commented that I had “only” applied to x positions in y weeks, when their search for (some vague title related to my usual employment) had z search results, where z was more than 10 times x. I didn’t bother replying but I couldn’t help but think, did you look at any of those postings? I literally had a search filter for jobs that was “CCNA” (Cisco certified) and I literally had administrative assistant positions coming up… Those are little better than secretarial jobs. I know because I clicked on it because maybe, just maybe they meant an assistant to the systems administrator, but no, it was exactly what it said on the tin.
This is my frustration with IT. There are zero standards for what a job is. Developer? Is it software or something related to construction? Engineer? Are you examining the structure of something or building out IT solutions? Admin? Office admin? Systems admin? Department admin? There’s too many “admin” related jobs… “Support”? Supporting what exactly? Am I programming switchports, or is this some other kind of bullshit support.
That’s not even getting into all the actual IT jobs that are clearly out in left field. Sysadmin jobs that require years of experience with an application that’s extremely specific to one industry; an application you could learn likely in a matter of days, which isn’t very complicated, but your resume goes in a bin if you don’t have some very specific certification and a number of years of experience with the related app… I know that because I’ve applied to such positions and didn’t even get a courtesy email telling me to pound sand.
Which takes me to another point, you don’t get rejected. You get ghosted. They don’t want you? Fine, tell me that. You don’t even have to give me a reason, just some copy pasta about pursuing other candidates. That way I will know to not expect anything further, and keep trying. I mean, I’m going to keep trying no matter what, but still…
The whole job market is a hellscape.
Then, I can turn my attention to the pointless titles people have, which often don’t mean shit outside of your specific workplace. “Lead customer success technician” … Ok, wtf is that? What does any of that mean? Are you technical in the sense of working with information technology? Or is it one of the DOZENS of other “technical” things? Everyone is a technician and everyone is an engineer now. Those terms used to mean something. Now they’re just keywords to blast your resume with to try to match some AI filter so you can get a call. If you don’t play the game, your left behind.
I feel bad for all the professional engineers out there who hold degrees in real engineering. Now anyone, everyone and their mother is calling themselves some kind of engineer. It’s all word salad and I hate it.
We are all SEO Engineers on this cursed day.
Oh my god.
The reality is also, that development is so extremely diverse, that it’s hard to find umbrella-enough terms to describe a job.
For example, I’m a senior software developer on paper.
I’m not senior, not even 10 years job experience. But I seem to be rather good at what I’m doing, so I’m a senior now.
I’m also hardly writing any code. I talk to customers about what they want their software to do, I talk to management about how many people I need, I review pull requests, I talk to junior devs about their problems, etc, etc. Maybe 10% of my time is actual code. But what title other than “developer” should I have?
Manager
Maybe “software producer”? (a term I’ve never seen used anywhere but that sort of makes sense when you think about what a movie producer does, for example)
A few more titles that you will hate, but actually describe your role. You are in no sense just a senior developer.
You are an
- Architect
- Solution Architect
- Project Manager and Team Leader
- Service Manager
Which one fits best, you have to decide. But i would put this up on my resume if i had your responsibilities.
Yeah, I struggle with that.
- I’m not allowed to be called an Architect because the Lead Architect only allows product people in the role, however I’m equivalent rank.
- I spend way too much time doing project management, but I despise that
- I don’t lead a specific team or have people but I set requirements for engineering and sometime borrow people from teams
- I’m in the Quality Engineering organization but don’t do QA
- some people think I’m a Build Engineer, and I do set some of their requirements
- some think I’m AppSec, and I do try to fill their gaps and apply their work to the organization.
Recently, maybe DevSecOps sounds most accurate, and I avoid talking rank so I don’t piss off that Prima Donna
It’s not a huge project (3-4 devs, including myself), there’s simply not enough to do for a dedicated architect. PM and SM are done by dedicated roles, but as a lead dev, I obviously have to play translator quite a bit.
In my career i have gone from Systems Engineer to professional services to Profesional services team lead to Senior Systems administrator to now just Systems administrator. All doing basically the same IT stuff at progressively higher levels other than the team lead part.
When i was looking for my last job i applied for a remote admin job and experienced exactly what you described. I was on the third interview and was asked when i was going to move to the area and if i wanted a relocation allowance as part of the offer. Uhh what? To them a remote admin was an administrator that went to remote sites. What a waste of my time
machine whisperer
Hackerman
“Job titles are actually a fluid concept - why feel a strong need to label everything?” :-D
My job title has changed 5x more than my actual job. I honestly don’t even know what my current title is.
I wonder how many man-hours (and at what average salary) has been spent deciding on title changes that have literally zero impact at my company. I’m sure every change involves meetings full of highly-paid executives.
“I (want to keep my job and therefore I) AGREE WITH YOU 100%”
They collect the big bucks, the rest of us can suck dirt -
barelynot able to afford a home, food, medical care, etc. Oh wait, sorry, I meant “YES SIR/MAM!”
Tech-priest.
Magos.
O, si es necesario, El Señor Arch-Magos.
Todos alaban al Santo Omnissiah, y así sucesivamente.
I have the words “software engineer” in my job title but I hate it.
We aren’t engineers, we’re a bunch of undisciplined hackers, engineers have standards and ethics.
Programmer is my preferred term, or software developer.
Code monkey is also acceptable.
Depends. I’ve studied for my engineering title, I have standards and ethics. Requirements, specification, design, architecture, programming, testing, integration, delivery, everything is part of my job. If you are a programmer, you only do programming.
Yeah, that’s bullshit.
Look at the state of software in the world. Even for Boeing standards, most software is abysmal. You can have personal standards all you want, if business daddy wants to deliver untested crap, I might object, but I can’t stop it and it’s usually not a hill I would want to die on.
I might object, but I can’t stop it
I’d argue that if you seriously consider yourself a software engineer, and you take the “engineer” part seriously, you should be quitting and blowing the whistle if that happens. If you just go along with it, then sure, you’re not an engineer.
Sure, and go where else exactly?
The entire industry works on shipping duct taped products.
I do have my standards, but there’s a point at which you have to say “it’s good enough”. If someone’s at risk of dying or being harmed, yeah, that’s a real problem. If the application keeps crashing and loses the business money, that’s not my problem, I can only notify my superiors about my concerns.
Dude, you’re living in fantasy land if you’re being serious. Engineers build all types of shoddy and dangerous crap just because they’re being paid to do it. Most of weapons manufacturing is mech eng. Almost no one is gonna quit their job over some ethical dispute, even if it’s costing lives.
That’s why I said it depends. If a billion dollar company decides to cut costs even more to gain more and more profits, they hire an army of codemonkeys in India and that is what you get.
If you work at a mid sized company interested in sustainable growth, you might get a software engineering position where you are the business daddy and if you say “I won’t deliver that untested” then it won’t be delivered untested.
I’m working at a company in Germany and we are leading in our field. I have one boss and he listens to what I tell him because he doesn’t have a clue about software engineering and that’s what he hired me and my team for.
Look into Agile, servant leadership and new work (the real stuff and not the garbage “hip” companies want to make you believe) if you want to understand.
It’s the old principles that kill companies like Boeing, because they think they can make big profits like it’s 1984 solely by pumping money into an army of wage slaves.
Look into “how a company works”, because that directly works against anything you say.
Not that I disagree with your ambition, I would like to only ship tested code. But if you’re working with deadlines and fixed budgets, that’s often enough impossible. I can’t even get a proper specification out of my clients, and even if they do, it’ll change in a week. You can be as agile as you want, if money runs out, there’s not much you can do.
Engineers put a lot of work into figuring out ways to sidestep their standards and ethics
Good ones don’t.
A tau. Moral engineers don’t sidestep their morals.
But then it all circles back around. I have advanced degrees in (non software) engineering from actual top tier engineering schools and I should not be trusted to write production code. That’s what software engineers are for.
I disagree with that. I mean, I don’t know how good you are at writing software, so maybe you shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near production code. But, just because code is “production” doesn’t mean it should exclusively be the domain of people who are “software engineers”.
In my mind, software engineering involves implementing new algorithms that are from a computer science paper you just read, or architecting a big and complex system. Or, if there are lives on the line. I’d want people writing code for a new Space Shuttle to think of themselves as engineers, not just code monkeys.
But, a self-taught developer is fine to update production code for a web app as long as they write the correct tests and get it peer reviewed.
My doctor’s digital prescription service has been ransomwared. It’s been a few weeks, and they paid the millions of dollars in Bitcoin or whatever, but it’s still encrypted and my doctor had to write me a prescription on paper.
The fact that a digital prescription service could have that happen is madness to me. The fact that they don’t have offline backups for prescriptions is insane. Yes, they could have been in there for a while, encrypting everything, but if the company had tested its backups they’d have found out immediately.
All of these are things that wouldn’t have happened if computing professions were held to standards.
if computing professions were held to standards.
Ok, sure. What standards? For fields like Civil Engineering it’s pretty easy to come up with reasonable standards. But, if a software engineer is writing a generic key-value store, how do you evaluate whether that item meets the required standards?
There are things that a developer can and should check to make sure his code is secure, but my focus is mainly on the systems and those can definitely be held to standards. Things like checking dependencies for known exploits, enforcing 2FA and TLS on all connections, encrypting data at rest, and testing backups, among a lot of other stuff.
I’ve worked with hundreds of organizations across many different industries in my career and almost none of them do all or even most of those, even if they need to be compliant for things like HIPAA or SOX. I once worked with an aerospace company whose sysadmin/webmaster/network guy was literally the founder’s son, who got the job because he knew how to make a web page.
I’ve been a programmer my whole career, but some years ago my then-employer gave me the actual title of “visionary”. This caused me to immediately lose the respect of my coworkers, and after a few months it was obvious my employer was just preparing to get rid of me and replace me with H-1Bs.
gave me the actual title of “visionary”
You answer to this guy now
He should’ve just given himself the job title of “Linus”
I put “Chaotic Neutral Technomancer” as my title at work and HR said I had to change it.
A “good girl”
I don’t know where “software engineer” started but in Australia engineers have to study for years and then do a minimum amount of study every year to keep their license. Which we don’t have to do. I’ve always been weirded out by Software Engineer even though it seems to be becoming more common.
Engineering is engineering. You design it, you build it, you test it. Engineering. We shouldn’t gatekeep words.
With that said, I recognize that certain engineering disciplines have overlap with public safety, and should come with some qualifications to back it up.
certain engineering disciplines have overlap with public safety, and should come with some qualifications to back it up.
How long until they realize software engineering has overlap with public safety too?
Single software engineer can nowadays do more harm than most of other engineers. Just one SQL injection and all the people’s personal data have been leaked. Single bug in car self driving software and the car drives in to school bus.
I like the title only because I got a degree in computer engineering and passed the fundamentals of electrical engineering exam. I definitely don’t do any engineering but it makes me feel like my degree wasn’t a waste.
Edit: also that was an 8 hour test that I really took for no reason.
Software engineer is an accurate term for a lot of roles. The problem is when software engineers step out of their lane and start pontificating about other engineering fields.
You have to do that to be a “Chartered Engineer”, “Professional Engineer” etc. Some states require you to have some kind of registration to practice in some roles.
“Engineer” remains an unprotected term in all states and territories as far as I know but I could be wrong. It’s definitely unprotected federally.
