You know who has the power not to toss people into the wood chipper? President of the United States Joe Biden.
And the fact that currently he prefers to have many people being thrown into the wood chipper instead of not throwing some people in himself, should make you very worried about how his policies will look like, when he has no reelection to work for.
Ah, good, you’ve convinced me, I will work towards seeing the fascist who has pledged to never leave office and throw as many people in the wood chipper as possible win.
Well you are working very hard for that. Instead of holding Biden accountable but offering to vote, if he stops being a genocide supporter who runs interment camps at the border and builds the wall for Trump, you divide the people so they don’t take power and get fucked by whoever wins in the end. And with this you are demotivating people to vote in the first place, helping Trump the most.
Congratulations. The American Elites have successfully played you, to do their bidding.
Don’t try to blame other people for your choices and actions. If you want to live in a Trump America, don’t vote for Biden. Just remember, it was your choice and not something “Corporate elites” made you do.
And again you blame yourself and the people, while simply accepting that the choice offered should be between a genocidal corrupt geriatric and a fascist corrupt geriatric.
You do exactly what i meant. You gaslight yourself so the elites can keep making bank, while you decide between dinner or rent.
The American political system is not changed in the ballot box.
I think it’s fascinating you wrote “in” the ballot box.
Not to mention, the system is literally changed first and foremost by the elections. But sure, biden bad, let the orange chips fall where they may and so on.
If you are in fact able to vote in the US presidential election, I hope you’ll do it and support all the downballot candidates as well.
Ich wünschte, ich könnte Deutsch sprechen. Aber wenn ich könnte, würde ich mich wahrscheinlich nicht zum deutschen politischen System äußern, nur weil ich erstens nichts darüber weiß und zweitens sowieso nicht dort lebe?
How much German election content do you get injected involuntarily into all your news feeds for two years every four years?
And the American election impacts the entire world like no other single national election does. The US influence through culture, trade and interventionism is felt throughout the entire world.
Ein fairer Punkt, denke ich. Aber wir schwimmen bereits in Leuten, die Trump helfen, es wäre besser, wenn wir Trump keine Hilfe von Leuten geben würden, die nicht einmal wählen können. Wie die russischen Trollfarmen. Ich wäre daran interessiert, eine deutsche Sicht auf die Wahl zu sehen, aber das ist ein freiwilliges Interesse, denke ich.
Okay, but that’s the entire reason the “left” in the US is so pointless. They just have to be less shit. They don’t even have to try too hard to avoid a genocide. They still win. But as Trump showed, that doesn’t weaken the right. The right can just say “Hey, look, the leftists don’t do shit! Now if you’d kindly be distracted from our increasing fascism…”
Liberals have no recipe against fascism. At best, they just postpone it by one or two election cycles. Like, I’m not saying don’t vote for Biden. I’m glad I don’t live in the US with your stupid two-party system. I’m glad I don’t have to decide whether to vote for everything that’s wrong in that country rn, or the worse alternative. If you think voting democrat is the right move, good on you. If you want to convince others from that view, great. Just, don’t be a dick about it. That “so you’re secretely a fash, hur di hur di hur” shtick isn’t gonna do anything but alienate others further.
I highly doubt that you’re gonna like this, but… communism. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s anarchism. But liberal democracy has failed that task time and time again.
First of all, what the fuck kind of standard is that, “indefintely”? At least it doesnt actively lead to fascism. I’d cite the “fascism is capitalism in decline” thing, but since Lenin said that iirc, that’d be like citing the bible to prove the bible.
Second of all, socialists, communists, and anarchists were always on the forefront of fighting fascism. They were the major force in the Spanisch civil war until they lost because fascism is better at the military. They were the ones arguing the loudest against Nazis, which is why they were such a threat that the first concentration camp were made for them. In Cuba, they literally overthrew the fascist dictatorship that was there at the time. Even reformism won out in places like Chile until the USA (you know, that liberal democracy that’s all the rage now) decided they’d rather see a FASCIST DICTATOR in its place. And even though I don’t like the Soviet Union for a variety of reasons, especially once Stalin took over, they were the ones who bore the brunt of the war against the Nazis while the USA were initially only helping for profit. And yes, I am aware that the USSR also played a significant role in letting the Nazis grow to power. Like I said, Stalin (and the system he represented) bad.
To get back to the original topic, since we both evidently disenjoy fascism, we (as in, our respective ideological groups) should maybe join in a united front against it. Not as a centrist “reach across the aisle”, just to work together on this particular issue. And I’d love to do that. But Joe seems stuck in the proud 'murican tradition of panicking at the sight of red flags and siding with fascists.
First of all, what the fuck kind of standard is that, “indefintely”?
Is that not the standard you’re applying to liberal democracy?
They were the major force in the Spanisch civil war until they lost because fascism is better at the military.
That’s not even close to true. The fascists won the Spanish Civil War due to a mixture of outside help and the Soviets literally backstabbing the socialists and anarchists.
In Cuba, they literally overthrew the fascist dictatorship that was there at the time.
Oh, cool. What did they replace it with?
And even though I don’t like the Soviet Union for a variety of reasons, especially once Stalin took over, they were the ones who bore the brunt of the war against the Nazis while the USA were initially only helping for profit.
Jesus Christ.
And yes, I am aware that the USSR also played a significant role in letting the Nazis grow to power. Like I said, Stalin (and the system he represented) bad.
Okay, then you are also aware that the USSR was a fascist regime painted red which engaged in a great deal of ethnic cleansing and mass murder, as well as autocratic governance and the destruction of workers’ political, civil, and economic rights.
So you’ve still not offered a single ideology that has actually managed to hold off totalitarianism in a way liberal democracy has not.
To get back to the original topic, since we both evidently disenjoy fascism, we (as in, our respective ideological groups) should maybe join in a united front against it. Not as a centrist “reach across the aisle”, just to work together on this particular issue. And I’d love to do that. But Joe seems stuck in the proud 'murican tradition of panicking at the sight of red flags and siding with fascists.
Cool. The United Front here is really easy. Vote for the coalition candidate; you know, the one running with the party that has DemSocs and SocDems in it in addition to moderates and neolibs; against the literal fucking fascist.
The standard I’m applying to liberal democracy is the lowest one possible. “Does it actively cause fascism, or support it in its rise?” To which the answer sooner or later becomes “Abso-fucking-lutely.”
The Cuban fascist were replaced with a workers’ state that survived and to some degree prospered in spite of isolation by the USA and their lackeys. There sure are human rights issues, but besides at least some of them stemming from the definition of human rights as anything diverging from bourgeois parlamentary democracy, that’s not enough to completely discredit communism. There are plenty capitalist natuons with abysmal human rights records.
Yes. The USSR sucked ass. In my view, there’s a number of reasons they (and China) shouldn’t even be considered communist (workers had no real control, and they abandoned internationalism in favor of petty nationalism). But they generally seen as part of the communist lore, so whatever. That doesn’t make them fascists.
So you’ve still not offered a single ideology that has actually managed to hold off totalitarianism in a way liberal democracy has not.
Nice shifting of the goal posts there, buddy. We were talking about fascism, not totalitarianism. The latter is just a label you stick on countries you don’t like in order to equate them with fascism.
Vote for the coalition candidate.
What coalition? Many of the Dems (at least from what I notice outside the USA) view anything that’s actually more left than a better healthcare system as more evil than what the Republicans are doing. They happily play along when the Republicans bring up the red spectre (there’s a certain irony to that) of communism.
Is this the same Soviet regime that ran a totalitarian society whose primary difference from fascism was the coat of red paint? The same Soviet regime that itself collapsed into modern Russia?
Uh, here I thought being a fascist society or collapsing into a fascist society might disqualify a country from the title of “Held off fascism indefinitely”, but uh, you do you I guess.
How so? The question regards indefinitely thwarting fascism, which the other commenter accused liberal democracy of being unable to do. I ask which ideology it is they think CAN indefinitely thwart fascism in a way that liberal democracy has failed to.
If ‘indefinitely’ is not required, then liberal democracy has a recipe against fascism which has worked for at least the past 80 years; as long as fascism has been around, and the question becomes self-defeating.
If you think the Stalinist and Maoist regimes were different from fascism in anything other than the coat of red paint, I can’t help you. “The People’s Genocide” is not actually better than “Genocide”, believe it or not.
Strawman arguments are pretty lame… Something I’d expect from conservatives really
Maybe you should be mad at Biden for not working to get the votes? Not doing whatever it takes to get those votes is basically giving the election to Trump. Dems should know better, since this “bully them into voting” strategy failed last time too.
Oh, cool, another denier of the fascism of Trump and Republicans. It feels like I’ve accidentally walked right into the Young Conservatives Club at the local community college.
Sorry, was there another interpretation of “You think there’s going to be FASCISM when Trump gains power just because there will be MURDERS? You silly lib!” that I missed?
PugJesus wasn’t saying there would be no murders of minorities if Trump loses. They phrased things poorly, but what they meant was minorities are going to be thrown into concentration camps which is what the fascist nazis did.
Sarcasm implies you mean the opposite of what you said, generally:
‘Fascism is when there are murders’
Yes. That is not the sole thing about fascism, but murdering everyone not in your personal social group is kind of a big deal in fascism. You making this statement sarcastic does not reflect well on you or your ability to wield the English language. If you wanted it to come across the way you wanted it to come across, you should have said ‘Fascism is about when there are murders and nothing else’.
However, this would have revealed a deep misunderstanding of what your opponent was actually implying, and, ironically, strawmanning them.
Cool, so you don’t care if fascism wins and minorities are murdered. Unsurprising.
The system is shit, but you can’t force people to participate in it’s perpetuation.
“We will only throw some people into a wood chipper.” is not a great platform and I understand those who dont want to be complicit.
The American political system is not changed in the ballot box.
And by refusing to be ‘complicit’, they are instead complicit in “We will throw as many people as we can into a wood chipper”.
Not exactly morally praiseworthy.
Not changed for the better, maybe. But it absolutely will be changed for the worse at the ballot box. Forgive me for not being excited for fascism.
You know who has the power not to toss people into the wood chipper? President of the United States Joe Biden.
And the fact that currently he prefers to have many people being thrown into the wood chipper instead of not throwing some people in himself, should make you very worried about how his policies will look like, when he has no reelection to work for.
Ah, good, you’ve convinced me, I will work towards seeing the fascist who has pledged to never leave office and throw as many people in the wood chipper as possible win.
Well you are working very hard for that. Instead of holding Biden accountable but offering to vote, if he stops being a genocide supporter who runs interment camps at the border and builds the wall for Trump, you divide the people so they don’t take power and get fucked by whoever wins in the end. And with this you are demotivating people to vote in the first place, helping Trump the most.
Congratulations. The American Elites have successfully played you, to do their bidding.
Imagine literally working towards a Trump victory and thinking you’re the one who has finally thrown off the Dastardly Manipulations of the Elite™.
Lol what a shit take.
Don’t try to blame other people for your choices and actions. If you want to live in a Trump America, don’t vote for Biden. Just remember, it was your choice and not something “Corporate elites” made you do.
And again you blame yourself and the people, while simply accepting that the choice offered should be between a genocidal corrupt geriatric and a fascist corrupt geriatric.
You do exactly what i meant. You gaslight yourself so the elites can keep making bank, while you decide between dinner or rent.
This comment makes me think you would literally slam your dick in a door and then be surprised when the pain of that sets in.
I think it’s fascinating you wrote “in” the ballot box.
Not to mention, the system is literally changed first and foremost by the elections. But sure, biden bad, let the orange chips fall where they may and so on.
If you are in fact able to vote in the US presidential election, I hope you’ll do it and support all the downballot candidates as well.
Oh I’m sorry I made a tiny error in spelling.
You’re very welcome to continue this conversation in my native German.
Ich wünschte, ich könnte Deutsch sprechen. Aber wenn ich könnte, würde ich mich wahrscheinlich nicht zum deutschen politischen System äußern, nur weil ich erstens nichts darüber weiß und zweitens sowieso nicht dort lebe?
How much German election content do you get injected involuntarily into all your news feeds for two years every four years?
And the American election impacts the entire world like no other single national election does. The US influence through culture, trade and interventionism is felt throughout the entire world.
So yeah, I have opinions on that.
Ein fairer Punkt, denke ich. Aber wir schwimmen bereits in Leuten, die Trump helfen, es wäre besser, wenn wir Trump keine Hilfe von Leuten geben würden, die nicht einmal wählen können. Wie die russischen Trollfarmen. Ich wäre daran interessiert, eine deutsche Sicht auf die Wahl zu sehen, aber das ist ein freiwilliges Interesse, denke ich.
What country do you live in? I mean, what’s it like there?
Bad, but unfortunately we are not armed as well.
We do have more than two parties though.
Fair enough.
I truly hope people aren’t stupid enough to be convinced by this “trickle down economics”-type bullshit
Okay, but that’s the entire reason the “left” in the US is so pointless. They just have to be less shit. They don’t even have to try too hard to avoid a genocide. They still win. But as Trump showed, that doesn’t weaken the right. The right can just say “Hey, look, the leftists don’t do shit! Now if you’d kindly be distracted from our increasing fascism…” Liberals have no recipe against fascism. At best, they just postpone it by one or two election cycles. Like, I’m not saying don’t vote for Biden. I’m glad I don’t live in the US with your stupid two-party system. I’m glad I don’t have to decide whether to vote for everything that’s wrong in that country rn, or the worse alternative. If you think voting democrat is the right move, good on you. If you want to convince others from that view, great. Just, don’t be a dick about it. That “so you’re secretely a fash, hur di hur di hur” shtick isn’t gonna do anything but alienate others further.
Perhaps you can clear this up by directing me towards the political ideology that has the recipe against fascism?
I highly doubt that you’re gonna like this, but… communism. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s anarchism. But liberal democracy has failed that task time and time again.
Would you like to inform me when and where communism has indefinitely thwarted the rise of a totalitarian regime like fascism?
First of all, what the fuck kind of standard is that, “indefintely”? At least it doesnt actively lead to fascism. I’d cite the “fascism is capitalism in decline” thing, but since Lenin said that iirc, that’d be like citing the bible to prove the bible.
Second of all, socialists, communists, and anarchists were always on the forefront of fighting fascism. They were the major force in the Spanisch civil war until they lost because fascism is better at the military. They were the ones arguing the loudest against Nazis, which is why they were such a threat that the first concentration camp were made for them. In Cuba, they literally overthrew the fascist dictatorship that was there at the time. Even reformism won out in places like Chile until the USA (you know, that liberal democracy that’s all the rage now) decided they’d rather see a FASCIST DICTATOR in its place. And even though I don’t like the Soviet Union for a variety of reasons, especially once Stalin took over, they were the ones who bore the brunt of the war against the Nazis while the USA were initially only helping for profit. And yes, I am aware that the USSR also played a significant role in letting the Nazis grow to power. Like I said, Stalin (and the system he represented) bad.
To get back to the original topic, since we both evidently disenjoy fascism, we (as in, our respective ideological groups) should maybe join in a united front against it. Not as a centrist “reach across the aisle”, just to work together on this particular issue. And I’d love to do that. But Joe seems stuck in the proud 'murican tradition of panicking at the sight of red flags and siding with fascists.
Is that not the standard you’re applying to liberal democracy?
That’s not even close to true. The fascists won the Spanish Civil War due to a mixture of outside help and the Soviets literally backstabbing the socialists and anarchists.
Oh, cool. What did they replace it with?
Jesus Christ.
Okay, then you are also aware that the USSR was a fascist regime painted red which engaged in a great deal of ethnic cleansing and mass murder, as well as autocratic governance and the destruction of workers’ political, civil, and economic rights.
So you’ve still not offered a single ideology that has actually managed to hold off totalitarianism in a way liberal democracy has not.
Cool. The United Front here is really easy. Vote for the coalition candidate; you know, the one running with the party that has DemSocs and SocDems in it in addition to moderates and neolibs; against the literal fucking fascist.
The standard I’m applying to liberal democracy is the lowest one possible. “Does it actively cause fascism, or support it in its rise?” To which the answer sooner or later becomes “Abso-fucking-lutely.”
The Cuban fascist were replaced with a workers’ state that survived and to some degree prospered in spite of isolation by the USA and their lackeys. There sure are human rights issues, but besides at least some of them stemming from the definition of human rights as anything diverging from bourgeois parlamentary democracy, that’s not enough to completely discredit communism. There are plenty capitalist natuons with abysmal human rights records.
Yes. The USSR sucked ass. In my view, there’s a number of reasons they (and China) shouldn’t even be considered communist (workers had no real control, and they abandoned internationalism in favor of petty nationalism). But they generally seen as part of the communist lore, so whatever. That doesn’t make them fascists.
Nice shifting of the goal posts there, buddy. We were talking about fascism, not totalitarianism. The latter is just a label you stick on countries you don’t like in order to equate them with fascism.
What coalition? Many of the Dems (at least from what I notice outside the USA) view anything that’s actually more left than a better healthcare system as more evil than what the Republicans are doing. They happily play along when the Republicans bring up the red spectre (there’s a certain irony to that) of communism.
76% of the nazis killed in WWII were at the hands of the Soviets.
Is this the same Soviet regime that ran a totalitarian society whose primary difference from fascism was the coat of red paint? The same Soviet regime that itself collapsed into modern Russia?
Christ almighty you just sent the goalposts into orbit.
Uh, here I thought being a fascist society or collapsing into a fascist society might disqualify a country from the title of “Held off fascism indefinitely”, but uh, you do you I guess.
Wow look at those goal posts go!
How so? The question regards indefinitely thwarting fascism, which the other commenter accused liberal democracy of being unable to do. I ask which ideology it is they think CAN indefinitely thwart fascism in a way that liberal democracy has failed to.
From which ideology has a recipe against fascism to which can indefinitely prevent the rise of a totalitarian regime similar to fascism
Don’t pretend that isn’t moving goal posts just because you don’t like communism and so you hold it to a higher standard than liberalism.
If ‘indefinitely’ is not required, then liberal democracy has a recipe against fascism which has worked for at least the past 80 years; as long as fascism has been around, and the question becomes self-defeating.
If you think the Stalinist and Maoist regimes were different from fascism in anything other than the coat of red paint, I can’t help you. “The People’s Genocide” is not actually better than “Genocide”, believe it or not.
Does anyone saying liberals bad in this thread live in America?
The only requirement for Evil to win, is for Good people to do nothing.
I guess then it’s a good thing that I’m not advocating for inaction. We just have very different ideas on what to do.
Perfect being the enemy of good, you’ve sided with pointless to remain pure. Such an example of futility and ignorance. But you do you.
… What?
Strawman arguments are pretty lame… Something I’d expect from conservatives really
Maybe you should be mad at Biden for not working to get the votes? Not doing whatever it takes to get those votes is basically giving the election to Trump. Dems should know better, since this “bully them into voting” strategy failed last time too.
fascism and genocide are currently happening
When these protesters were getting arrested i got so many upvotes for calling it fascism. Oh but Bidens the champion to save us from fascism.
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Oh, cool, another denier of the fascism of Trump and Republicans. It feels like I’ve accidentally walked right into the Young Conservatives Club at the local community college.
Or a temp firm in Macedonia
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Sorry, was there another interpretation of “You think there’s going to be FASCISM when Trump gains power just because there will be MURDERS? You silly lib!” that I missed?
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PugJesus wasn’t saying there would be no murders of minorities if Trump loses. They phrased things poorly, but what they meant was minorities are going to be thrown into concentration camps which is what the fascist nazis did.
Sarcasm implies you mean the opposite of what you said, generally:
‘Fascism is when there are murders’
Yes. That is not the sole thing about fascism, but murdering everyone not in your personal social group is kind of a big deal in fascism. You making this statement sarcastic does not reflect well on you or your ability to wield the English language. If you wanted it to come across the way you wanted it to come across, you should have said ‘Fascism is about when there are murders and nothing else’.
However, this would have revealed a deep misunderstanding of what your opponent was actually implying, and, ironically, strawmanning them.
Idk Trump is checking off nearly every box here https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html
No, not remotely accurate. https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism