• undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        They’re fascists, not nazis. I’m not saying that to castigate you but to make your point bullet proof.

        Nazis are a very specific kind of anti Jewish (amongst other things) fascists.

        • Dasus@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          “Nazi” is more a colloquial term for “fascist who’s actually been allowed to practice their cruel and senseless fascist policies”, imo. Not someone saying that Israel is literally following the politics of one Adolf Hitler.

          So yeah, in essence, these Israeli Jews are nazis, however ironic it sounds.

          • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            Nope, nazi is a specific term for a specific kind of fascist. Dont get me wrong, there are plenty of people who don’t understand the words that they use but thats not the same things as them being correct.

            So no, the Israeli government are not nazis and only a moron would think that they were.

            • tabarnaski@sh.itjust.works
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              4 months ago

              The word “fascism” comes from Mussolini’s ideas and was later used to denote any political system with similar ideas. I think the use of the word “nazism” has been generalized in the same way.

              • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                Yup, facsism is the umbrella term under which the different facsist groups, like the nazis, fall under which is what I said already.

                I know people who think god is real. They too are mistaken.

                Are the Israelis murdering Jewish people on mass? If not, they’re not nazis.

                • daltotron@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  Are the Israelis murdering Jewish people on mass?

                  I mean, sort of by proxy they might be inspiring a bunch of hate crimes, and I wouldn’t be surprised if their actions on sort of a broader geopolitical scale are inspiring a kind of antisemitic cycle of violence, but I dunno if I’d say that makes them more specifically “nazis”, in like, the 20th century hitler ideology sense.

                  In any case, don’t be a linguistic prescriptivist, it’s cringe.

                  • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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                    4 months ago

                    Lol what you mean is “no, they’re not killing Jewish people on mass that way that nazis do.” Don’t worry, anyone reading your comment will sew thats what you said.

                    No, words mean what they mean. They dont mean whatever the hell you feel they should whenever you feel like it. Its also antisemitic as fuck to call Jewish people nazis, due to the specific nature of nazis.

                    We can descend into literary anarchy, if you like but I think you’ll find it quite to be quite chocolately and up side down very quickly. BTW, I’ve just decided that chocolately and up side down now means frustrating and tedious. You must accept this or youre a cringy linguistic prescriptivist. Or is it only OK when you do it?

            • Dasus@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              Yes, prescriptively, it’s a very certain type. You’ll notice how for instance in Wikipedia they’d capitalise the n in “Nazi”, while on forums you might see people using just “nazi”. Is there a difference? Yes. The same way “literally” means literally, but it can also be used just as emphasis. And that’s the opposite of it’s meaning.

              Yet because some people like to use it that way, it’s accepted as a colloquialism into the language.

              https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquialism

              Just like that wasn’t the first definition of nazi, so too “literally” has a several definitions.

              https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/literally

              Literally is also used to emphasize a statement and suggest that it is surprising:

              See how that works?

              You’re using the non capitalised version as well. So you’re incorrect. The Israeli government are nazis. They might not be Nazis, but they are nazis.

              • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                Thats actually a hilarious attempt at squaring this little antisemitic circle people where keep drawing.

                Its funny that you provide links to everything but the part that could prove your nonsense to be true (that the meaning of nazi changes when a capital letter is used). Its literally something you just made up now, then claimed that (as colloquiums exist) the thing i just made up must be true.

                How about you attempt to prove that the capitalisation of the “N” changes the meaning to not being nazis but, instead, “Jewish people we don’t like.”

                • Dasus@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  There’s nothing you’ll ever accept as enough evidence that this is how language works and go “oh, okay, I think I was wrong.” That’s not even on the table. You’re literally not capable of even writing those words.

                  When you’re reading text, and it has the word “coke” in it, do you read it differently than “Coke”?

                  Could you perhaps take a guess at what’s the difference?

                  First one stands for (depending on the place of usage), any type of cola, cocaine or even any type of soda drink. that’s valid usage in the Southern US, calling a can of any carbonated sugary drink “coke” is perfectly fine. Whereas “Coke” is short for “Coca-Cola” and refers to the actual Coke.

                  Now unless I’m speaking to a second grader or something, you should be able to grasp the meaning of that. It works just like it does with “Nazi”, “nazi.”

                  No, I didn’t invent the rules of capitalisation

                  How about you attempt to prove that the capitalisation of the “N” changes the meaning to not being nazis but, instead, “Jewish people we don’t like.”

                  This has nothing to do with being a Jew and everything to do with being a small-minded, brainwashed, fascist genocide supporting piece of shit. In other words a nazi, as is the accepted colloquial usage.

                  Israeli government are despicable nazis.

                  Why would you make this about being Jewish?

                  Jewish people are great. Nazis fucking suck dick. Israeli government is full of nazis. Israeli government isn’t the same as Jewish people. That’s like saying that if I call Putler a fucking nazi, that I’m “just referring to Christians you don’t like”.

                  Like how fucking thick do you have to be to make that argument?

                  Israeli government are scum. Jewish people are lovely. And the true people of God are against this sort of nazi bullshit and would seek to make Israel face it’s sins.

                  • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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                    4 months ago

                    Also, coke is a type of treated coal that produces much more heat, it’s used in steel manufacturing.

            • Caboose12000@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              Language is descriptive, not prescriptive. Word meanings can change over time, the only thing that makes a word’s definition “correct” is if it successfully communicates information.

              I’m not saying that to castigate you but to make your point bullet proof.

              I actually agree with your definition, but arguing that a word’s definition is wrong simply because “thats not how it’s defined” ignores the way that real people actually use words today

              • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                Language is descriptive, not prescriptive. Word >meanings can change over time

                While true, actually, it doesn’t mean “words can mean whatever the hell i want them to whenever I feel like it.” As crazy as it might seems, its actually not the same thing.

                It does successfully communicate information. That much is the. Unfortunately though, it communicates that certain people choose antisemitism over accurately describing the thing they’re talking about. If that’s what they want to communicate, then yes, it was successfully communicated. If that wasn’t the intention, it fails the condition you listed.

                • Dasus@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  While true, actually, it doesn’t mean “words can mean whatever the hell i want them to whenever I feel like it.” As crazy as it might seems, its actually not the same thing.

                  And who tried that?

                  We’re not talking about whether “rizz” is acceptable to use instead of “charisma”, (which would also constitute common usage), but something that’s been going on for more than 80 years.

                  Using “nazi” as a generalised term for fascists.

                  It’s accurate. It’s very accurate. Because what the Israeli are doing to Palestinians is very related to what the Nazis (notice the capital N) did to Jews during the Holocaust.

                  #neveragain

                  Israeli government are nazis. Pure and simple. You can keep crying over what you feel is an offensive and “inaccurate” term. Unfortunately for you it’s common usage no matter how badly you want to be blissfully ignorant of Israeli atrocities.

                  https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/Nazi

                  disapproving : an evil person who wants to use power to control and harm other people especially because of their race, religion, etc.

                  That’s literally the common use. Argue that away with your asinine examples, go ahead, I’ll wait.

                  • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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                    4 months ago

                    And who tried that?

                    You, just now. Try and keep up.

                    No, nazi, even by the definition you provided, is an evil person colloquially.

                    The israeli government are facsists and pretending anyone could cry over your ignorance is pathetic, even by your standards. Just so you know, your mask slips when you have to pretend I want ignorant of the evil things the Israeli government is doing. Its just empty rhetoric designed to silence people who disagree with you, as you haven’t got a leg to stand on.

                    However, as were on the subject of definitions, why are you so married to calling Jewish people a term that falls under the EHRC definition of antisemitism?

                    Let me guess, suddenly you don’t care for the definition of words anymore? Go ahead, attempt to argue that away with your baseless, asinine declarations about the use of capital letters. Please do, its hilarious.

                    Literally, its like listening to white guys claiming it wasn’t racist, as they didn’t use a hard “R.”

                    “But how hard was the capitalisation?” 😂

            • mhague@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              I think it’s a neurodivergent thing. When Steve says “Israeli’s are a bunch of Nazis” you’re supposed to pass through the words and see what Steve is expressing. Steve didn’t couch his statement in a clinical, “these be the facts” tone, it’s obvious what Steve meant. He’s calling out Israel for abhorrent behavior

              The “this means X so if you say that it means Y” things is the way some neurodivergents slice up the world. Like we live in a videogame or something. They will literally tell you what you meant by attaching arbitrary rules to your words.

              Anyways, Israeli’s are definitely Nazis. (They are not literally Nazis) Their war is soulless, evil. (Evil does not literally exist, soulless is elegant shorthand for morality, how one feels about actions, how deep one feels those patterns are embedded, etc.)

              • Dasus@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                Israeli’s are a bunch of Nazis"

                Steve didn’t though. Steve didn’t say they are Nazis. Steve said they are nazis.

        • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Zionists are ethno-Fascists - Fascism linked to ethnicity rather than the nationalism of traditional Fascism - complete with things like ethnic superiority beliefs (and a general belief in some ethnicities being ubermensch and others untermensch), accusing critics of that Fascism of being against the ethnicity and surrounding themselves with the symbology related to the ethnicity.

          It’s the same kind of Fascism as the NAZIS - who claimed to represent the Arian Race - had, complete with rabid racism and inhuman levels of murderous behavior against members of ethnicities deemed untermensch (who Zionists literally call “human animals”) and not at all the same kind of Fascism as, say, Mussolini (in Italy) or Franco (in Spain).

          Zionism is far closer to NAZIsm than any other ideology, including all other Fascist ideologies, and their words and actions reflect that, so calling them NAZIs as a shortcut makes sense because that’s pretty much what they are, with the main difference being the ethnicity they claim to represent.

          Sure, you can say they haven’t committed a Holocaust and the NAZIs did, but then again the NAZIs too didn’t start by committing a Holocaust - that only came later because nobody stood up against them until it was too late, exactly the same as being done with regards to the Zionists.

          • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            Cool story still not nazis though and its still antisemitic to call Jewish people nazis, due to the specific nature of nazis.

            If anyone actaully cared about the words meaning and wanted to further the cause of palestinians, instead of just being antisemitic, they would simply adjust to using a term that won’t ensure everything they say afterwards is dismissed by the vast majority of society.

            What you described is facsism and hallmarks of all fascism and none of the things that made nazis nazis, instead of regular facsists. The problem is, you don’t know the difference and you’ve presumed no one else does either. So you tried to blag it instead.

            • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              Ah, the good old “anti-semitic” slander from somebody making claims in the name of all Jews in order to defense the Neue NAZIs.

              Such a wonderful illustration of the point In was making!

              • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                I mean, calling Jewish people nazis is literally in the definition of antisemitism. I know you’re not very good with words and their meanings but, to the resr of the world, the meaning of words is actually important.

                I mean, a anyone has to do is call them fascsists which is still an insult to any decent person.

                Why do you have to call them something that is universally known to be an antisemitic thing to xa them when you can achieve the same aims without the antisemitism?

                • Promethiel@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  Believe what you want to believe and may it chase you as you deserve every night.

                  But keep your goalpost moving grubby mitts from the idea you know words or are any good with them.

                  Being disingenuous is piss easy and transparent, cool the back patting.

                  Learn to read what others comment, so that at least you can keep consistency if you’re gonna clutter public forums with your drivel.

                  • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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                    4 months ago

                    OK, so, again, why do you HAVE to use that word? Why couldn’t you use a different one?

                    At least have the bottle to answer what you’re asked, instead of ducking it. Grow a spine and let everyone know.

                • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  It’s “literally” not.

                  There is no special property of people from the Jewish ethnicity that makes them any less capable or any more capable of the kind of evil and the kind of thinking that the NAZIs had and practiced.

                  Also there have even been Jewish Holocaust Survivors who compared the actions of Israel (so, of many of its people and decision-makers in its government, all of whom are “Jewish people”) to those of the NAZIs.

                  Your definition of anti-semitism, which you are parroting in the name of all Jews no less, slanders even some Jewish Holocaust Survivors as “anti-semites”.

                  It takes an extraordinary amount of interiorisation of racism to parrot a definition of anti-semitism that not only implies that Jews are differently capable of certain ways of thinking and acting (and hence that they are different from other people), it even classifies some Jews, including some Jewish Holocaust Survivors, as anti-semite.

          • Kalysta@lemm.ee
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            4 months ago

            What the Israelis are doing to Gaza is pretty damn close to a Holocaust.

        • MindTraveller@lemmy.ca
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          4 months ago

          The Nazis wanted the Jews out of Germany. If the Jews all move to Israel, the Nazis will say mission accomplished. Since its inception, Israel has been beloved by antisemites. Israel is fundamentally a Nazi project. Antisemitic to the core.

          • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            It makes you wonder why the nazis murdered them all instead of just sending them away from Germany…

            Israel was a project made by British and American Christians, fresh from defeating the actual nazis, who wanted to colonise the middle East and to bring about the end of days. Facsist to the core but not anti Jewish or nazi.

            • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
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              4 months ago

              There’s quite an overlap between Zionists and antisemites who wanted to force Jews out of Europe. Including the Nazis.

              Madagascar Plan

              The Madagascar Plan (German: Madagaskarplan) was a plan proposed by the Nazi German government to forcibly relocate the Jewish population of Europe to the island of Madagascar. Franz Rademacher, head of the Jewish Department of the German Foreign Office, proposed the idea in June 1940, shortly before the Fall of France. The proposal called for the handing over of control of Madagascar, then a French colony, to Germany as part of the eventual peace terms.

              In the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century, there were a number of resettlement plans for European Jews that were precursors to the Madagascar Plan. Paul de Lagarde, an Orientalist scholar, first suggested evacuating the European Jews to Madagascar in his 1878 … Members of the Zionist movement in 1904–1905 seriously debated the Uganda Scheme, by which Russian Jews, who were in immediate danger from ongoing pogroms in the Russian Empire, would be settled in the East Africa Protectorate (now Kenya), which was part of the British Empire at the time. The plan was later rejected as unworkable by the World Zionist Congress.

              Adherents of territorialism split off from the main Zionist movement and continued to search for a location where Jews might settle and create a state, or at least an autonomous area.

              • sudo@programming.dev
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                4 months ago

                Early Zionist history is begging the biggest antisemites in the world for their own colony. Zionists made their peace with antisemites along time ago.

                • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
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                  4 months ago

                  One of the founding terrorist groups of israel tried to work with Hitler to colonize Palestine

                  Lehi (militant group)

                  It initially sought an alliance with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. Believing that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis, proposing a Jewish state based on “nationalist and totalitarian principles, and linked to the German Reich by an alliance”

                  Former Lehi leader Yitzhak Shamir became Prime Minister of Israel in 1983.

                  • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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                    4 months ago

                    British high command, as Palestine was part of the British empire back then. As if you’re sealioning the fundamentals of the history of that reason.

                    I suggest you learn some history about the region before commenting further.

          • RedditWanderer@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            If by that you mean they tried to make the whole world germany, then yeah they only “wanted them out of Germany”

        • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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          4 months ago

          The Nazis weren’t just anti-Jewish, they were anti-anyone who isn’t Aryan. While the people here are basically only showing anti-Arab sentiments, if they held the same view to all other races then they would be analogous to Nazis.

          • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            I never said they were just anti Jewish.

            Why are people here so married to calling Israeli Jewish people nazis? Such a weird hill to choose to die on.

            • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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              Because it’s an extremely valid and apt comparison.

              The Nazis were not defined by being anti-Jewish, yet you make out that because Israel is not discriminating against Jews they cannot be Nazis. The Nazis are defined by ethno fascism preferring a single race. For the Nazis, it’s Aryans; for Israel, it’s Jews. They’re so incredibly similar that you can pretty much call them the same - they’re basically two sides of a single coin.

              Also, strictly speaking we’re not calling all Israelis Nazis, but the people running the country and committing genocide.

              • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                They were defined by both their hatred of Jewish people and their ethno fascism. Their hatred of Jewish people is a fundamental part of everything they did and the justification for all of it. If they didn’t like something, they declared it to be a Jewish conspiracy and attacked it.

                Why are you so married to calling them a term that ensures everyone outside of certain cliques will automatically dismiss anything you have to say about the subject?

                • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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                  4 months ago

                  Why are you so vehemently defending an indefensibly evil group, all because I compared them to another indefensibly evil group?

                  • undergroundoverground@lemmy.world
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                    I don’t see it as defending them. At least, its result is only secondary. I see it as making sure that people who know what’s going on in gaza aren’t ignored when they talk about it. I’m sure you can figure out what happens to the majority of people who are kept deliberately in the dark about it (they switch off).

                    To me, its the correct definition and going by it is good for its own sake.

                    If I was a social media propagandist, obviously I’m not saying you are, I would foster a culture where people call Jewish Israelis nazis, to gain sympathy for the wrongs the IDF is doing in gaza. As such, I think not doing that is a good idea.

                    I would ask in return, what is the benefit of not having your argument etc. in favour of palestinian liberation being squeaky clean? Regardless of whether you were ultimately right, can you really justify the use of that decisive word for them when you can do almost the exact same thing with another, equally as good word. If you feel its a bit better, is the improvement justified when the outcome is to raise awareness for Palestine?

            • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              You got a point. The original fascist, Benito Mussolini, wasn’t even racist. He didn’t obsess about the Jews or other races as much as the Nazis did. What mattered to Italian fascism is if you subscribe to Italian nationalism.

              • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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                Zionism is Fascism linked to ethnicity - ethno-Fascism - same as the NAZIs, whilst Mussolini’s version was traditional Fascism which is linked to nationalism.

                The rabid racism, feelings of ethnic superiority and dehumanization of other specific ethnicities of ethno-Fascism result in far more cold and murderous behavior than mere nationalism.

                All this is why we see from the Zionists the same kind of unbelievably murderous almost-inhuman behaviour, the same general extreme racist argumentation and even the same accusing of their critics of being against their ethnicity as the NAZIs.

                The closest traditional Fascists get that is accusing their critics of being against their nation, but beyond that you don’t see anywhere near the level or rabid murderous violence against others merely because of their nationality or ethnicity from traditional Fascist as you see from ethno-Fascists.

                Simply compare Russia’s behavior in Ukraine with Israel’s behavior in Gaza to see the veritable universe of difference in how murderous and uncaring both kinds of Fascist are, over the entire chain of command all the way down to the lowest foot soldier in their violence against the “other”, even if both kinds are are aggressive and violent: the Russians have targeted children maybe once or twice, from afar (i.e. missile attacks on schools) whilst the Israelis regularly bomb schools and playgrounds and their snipers shoot on the heads children who are simply playing inside their own homes: direct murdering if children whilst seeing their faces is a whole different level of inhumane behavior.

              • ✺roguetrick✺@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                I wouldn’t say that, he was just specifically racist against people in his envisioned Mediterranean empire. Namely Ethiopians and Slavs.

                • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  The Italian facists are split about it. Mussolini has not exactly been consistent with his beliefs but he is considerably less racist than Hitler and the Nazis. Even some of the Italian fascists denounce racism from some of the other members.

      • riodoro1@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        They have been for a very, very long time. It’s only now that we’re hearing about what they really do out there.

      • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
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        4 months ago

        The israeli term for Palestinian since october.

        Originally it meant elite Hamas forces which participated in the attack. But israel just calls every Palestinian they kidnap or kill a 'Nukhba fighter". Easy way to justify any war crime. Everything is Hamas.

        • nova_ad_vitum@lemmy.ca
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          4 months ago

          Seems the difference between an Isreali prisoner and a Hamas hostage is literally just the amount of paperwork generated.

        • Crikeste@lemm.ee
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          4 months ago

          If they were such elite Hamas soldiers, they wouldn’t release 50% of them back into civilian populations.