cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/45204357
Yesterday, I created my account on Lemmy.ml because I want to become mod on !stardewvalley@lemmy.ml. And I posted this comic on !stardewvalley@lemmy.ml It’s SDV game cutscene where Shane a NPC go watch Sports game with you kiss you accidentily but It was part of that event also player kiss Shane(NPC) back. Here’s video for more context. And someone claimed it have SA(Sexual Assualt) From Hexbear Ofcourse. So, I should delete it. I said it was a part of game cutscene. And If main player doesn’t love the Shane(NPC) then they don’t need to complete this event. And Just as a sarcasm I added Yeah we shoule delete this entire community because this game is Woke like Woke Detector Steam Group said. That user think I am some anti-woke dickhead something like that IDK. And tell me to Kill My Self. What I do now? I wanted on become mod on .ml because community was already well established. I message dessaline but I am sure he will not unbanned me. :(
Did I really did something wrong? I don’t know If I really did something wrong.
Link for that comic if embed doesn’t work.
Create one lemm.ee !stardewvalley@lemm.ee
Here’s some context, in defence of the OP:
The game in question allows you to date and marry different characters, among them Shane (represented in the comic with the purple hair). In order to do so, once the character reaches an affection level of eight hearts towards you, you need to give them a bouquet, that clearly signals that the player’s avatar has romantic interest towards that person.
The comic represents Shane’s ten hearts event. As in: you can only reach that point if you already showed romantic interest towards Shane. And in the context, the kiss is not even sexual in nature, it’s just Shane excited with the game.
As in, there’s no fucking way to interpret this as sexual assault.
But of course. Slacktivists gonna witch hunt, right? They’re unable to understand context, but they’re still really eager to screech at you. And
.mlmoderation in special has a nasty tendency towards both slacktivism and witch hunting.They also don’t seem to get sarcasm well.
They also don’t seem to get sarcasm well.
That’s Lemmy as a whole, not just them.
No, Lemmy is actually the best at picking up on sarcasm
Wait a tick… I think this was sarcasm, y’all!
…well, yes. You’re right.
Removed by mod
As in, there’s no fucking way to interpret this as sexual assault.
Well, having never played stardew valley, it’s actually hard for me to interpret the comic in any other way. I hope the encounter in stardew valley is different enough not to count as SA, but as it’s represented in the comic it certainly looks like SA.
Well, without the proper context it’s hard to interpret things correctly, indeed. And yet it’s what we (people in general) should do, to avoid being unfair. Doubly so when we’re in a position to dictate what others should/shouldn’t share, like the admins of an instance are. [EDIT: it’s what we should do = interpret things correctly.]
I hope the encounter in stardew valley is different enough not to count as SA
If you’re in the mood, give this link a check. It’s the whole 3min scene, straight from the game. Just keep in mind that, as I mentioned before, the player avatar and Shane (purple hair guy) are already dating.
This is SA and all my arguments are made in the original thread which OP conveniently never links: CW for SA and SA apology https://hexbear.net/post/3706906
The thread showcasing your arguments and your desire for OP’s death isn’t the win that you believe it is. It makes you seem unhinged and divorced from reality. The thought process on display comes across as delusional, even sociopathic.
It’s a lot of stuff so I’ll only mention a few points here and there. Others might want to check your link directly for context.
[CW: link contains frivolous usage of a word considerably more likely to trigger victims of sexual violence than a kiss in a comic.]
You’re inferring too much from a drawing. The kiss is unexpected for two reasons: it is not a romantic situation (it’s a sports game), and Shane not being an assertive person. Same sort of surprise as someone otherwise prudish using swear words. On being “limp”, seriously?
I need you to understand that posts like these can absolutely wreck someones day and pose a barrier to the site and lemmy as a whole. So best case: it’s ableist to put it up.
Everyone has a different trigger. You might triggering with your clothes, or your perfume, or your usage of a specific word unrelated to violence… that’s awful but it’s how things are.
It’s simply too far from any reasonable boundary that we could say “no, this is going too far, it’s too likely to trigger someone”, you know?
Because if we [people in general] stop doing and sharing every single thing that might potentially trigger someone, we’ll neither do nor share anything. Doubly so if we need to also take into account people who are oblivious to the context.
That includes your prescription not allowing women to express themselves, as it is the case of this comic. People across this thread have not mentioned the author, but here she is; so you got a woman representing the scene as positive, but apparently women can’t have their fun too, right.
[She’s also likely Latin American. It’s common knowledge that folks here are considerably more eager to touch each other. Unless I’m supposed to pretend that the only valid behaviour rules are the ones followed by Anglos.]
Secondly: the fact that your first line of defense is “it’s just a game” makes me want to shoot you. It’s just a comment.
I’m highlighting this because it’s an actually good argument. If this was indeed a piece of content encouraging sexual abuse (it is not, but let’s pretend that it is), “it’s just a game” would not be a valid defence.
Thirdly: Shane being a depressed alcoholic does not give him a pass to SA people?? And if he’s been drinking even though he’s an alcoholic all the more reason to step out of the situation. How is pointing out that this is not just a comic about SA but about an alcoholic relapsing and then SA’ing helping your argument? “oh he’s been down lately, lets let this one slide”? [REDACTED]
You were so fucking close to convince me that you actually care about victims of sexual abuse being triggered by content on the internet. So close.
Until you posted the part that I’ve redacted off, containing a word that is considerably more likely to trigger them than a kiss in a comic. Rules for thee, but not for me???
The asterisk does nothing by the way.
Famously in stardew valley you aren’t dating until after the ten heart event.
That is blatantly false. Eight hearts is when you start dating; ten hearts is when your relationship is solid enough that you can safely ask the person in marriage.
Props for actually discussing this, unlike most HB kids who hopped into this thread just to have fun. (…I kind of had my fun with them too.)
Why would anyone want to read anything from that cesspit? If you’re going to make an argument, make it here. Otherwise you’re falling on deaf ears as most people here know Hexbear’s very poor reputation and won’t bother.
It’s on Hexbear as it views the original Lemmy.ml thread, don’t be so scared, lol. You aren’t going to become a spooky scary Marxist just for clicking a link even if it was linked directly to Hexbear.
The important bit is that the link shows the entire argument chain between the commenter you are replying to and OP.
theyre_the_same_picture.jpg
You are a treasure for the Fediverse to have. You allowed yourself to get triggered later on, but this comment right here is pure gold! 🪙
Thank you!
Although, to be frank, I wasn’t triggered. Sure, I got mildly annoyed at two users, one for behaving like a dumb fuck and another for adding zero to the discussion; but the main reason why I was ruder with the HB users is that they don’t understand things unless you speak their language - it’s how they typically speak with each other anyway, I knew that it wouldn’t offend them.
(The first one is likely still pretending that this comic represents sexual abuse, that “gullibleness” isn’t a valid word, and that I was using my typically convoluted vocabulary to “sound smart”.)
Addressing the other comment, about HB [de]federation:
I don’t know what the admins there want, but it’s somewhat clear that a lot of the userbase wants to eat the cake and have it too: they want access to the content offered by other instances, but still behave like they were in HB.
If you poke around inside HB, you will see them having these same conversations - I recall one, found by searching the keyword “(de)federation” where their admin was begging and pleading for them to behave. I might have restricted the search to whatever their announcement community is called, which I can usually find by sorting the local communities list by oldest. Anyway, their userbase obviously doesn’t care.
This points to why normalization of toxicity is so incredibly dangerous: by not stopping it inside their own instance, they train people that that kind of behavior is okay. Now, of course the users are going to act the same way outside of it!?!?!? You cannot extract blood from a stone, you cannot expect a leopard to change its spots, you cannot (necessarily) expect civility from someone trained on 4chan, and by federating with them and providing zero means to block them, that isn’t half as much their fault as ours. The likes of Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, and Steve Huffman are all going to do their thang, but it’s our choice to use the platforms that they provide.
Lemmy’s 0.19.3 was supposed to allow user-blocking - older posts calling for user-level defederation were always told “just wait, it’s coming”. However, what little protection it did offer has since degraded further - the only thing is does is block communities for someone, not the toxic-AF userbase, and while it used to also block notifications from them, as of 0.19.5 the latter protection is already gone. At this point I expect it will never happen. Bc if it did, people would block Lemmy.ml too, and they can’t have that.
Only the authority admins can choose to defederate from hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml, and lemmy.ml too except who are we kidding that’s not happening. Some instances have at least blocked certain communities such as ChapoTrapHouse, but obviously meander.xyz has not (https://mander.xyz/c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net), seeming to prefer to leave it up to each individual user to decide which users, communities, and instances to block - except again, you cannot block the latter, not without some kind of bot or doing the work manually for each individual user and community, plus any new ones that may be created in the future. And despite all the posts that seem to indicate otherwise, quite often we are prevented from even discussing the matter. In the 10 months since I made this account, I have only had 3 posts removed - all 3 for criticizing the admin practices on Lemmy.ml. What is allowed to be said is only the tip of the iceberg.
Watching Innuendo Studios’ The Alt Right Playbook changed my thinking forever, helping solidify my thinking that while you can lead a horse to water, you cannot make it drink. I am not criticizing what you did here bc you weren’t speaking for the sake of changing the actual HB’s mind, but to breathe the light of knowledge into the dark corners of the situation, mainly for the sake of the rest of us who know nothing about that game and perhaps are too busy or otherwise not inclined to look up such details. FANTASTIC! But anyway, I now know that people who troll are not worth talking to.
So I’ll probably move away from Lemmy, either to PieFed or Tesseract on dubvee.org or both, or lemmy.cafe seems quite welcoming and is the only fully Lemmy instance I’ve ever heard of that has defederated from all of the big 3 - and notably virtually nothing else (except threads.net), so it’s like lemm.ee but without that source of toxicity. It also is running 0.19.6-beta.9, and has fantastic welcome messages on the home page - most instances refuse to update your sidebar content to help guide new users, inclined highly ironically lemmy.ml itself that just has a link titled “What is Lemmy.ml” that points to a post that has since been removed:-D. Both dubvee.org and lemmy.cafe are only run by a single admin though iirc, so seem less stable for the future.
Btw whether you are interested in joining PieFed or not yourself, I highly recommend reading this: https://join.piefed.social/2024/06/22/piefed-features-for-growing-healthy-communities/ - many of those thoughts that you and I discussed over a year ago about voting patterns, with trust based on reputation scores and sorting based on someone’s pattern of behaviors, as we do irl, are fleshed out there. They might be great solutions to the problems, or they might be horrible ones, but either way it’s an interesting read, and a step forward to making something actually happen!
We cannot control others, only ourselves. New, mainstream people are far less likely to join Lemmy due to all the extremism and toxicity that we allow here, the (mostly false) mantra “you can just block it tho” aside, not everyone wants to treat their social media like they are installing Arch Linux btw.
So, I’ve hit !announcements@hexbear.net, and found the admin asking people to behave:
Alongside this thread where they discuss federation or not, asking posters if HB should federate, and how. Voting results were mostly pro-federation through an allow list, but what’s interesting is the content of the comments - or, rather, what is missing:
- pro-federation users were like “weee! WE GO OUTSIDE AND WE OWN LIBS!”
- anti-federation users were like “no, they’re going to ruin Hexbear!”. (This comment in another thread is a bit more explicit on this.)
But in no moment they showed concerns towards the other side, like “no, our funposting would be misunderstood and create issues out there” or “those kids won’t behave”. As a group it was only looking at its own belly button. And it was always focusing on political views, never on behaviour.
(Owning libs would be fine and dandy if they didn’t bloody assumed that everyone and their dog is one.)
I also found a few extra shitty things, like:
- Defed note on Blahaj. Blahaj saying “it’s fine”, and HB basically “NO! I know better LGBTQ+ issues than an instance created for LGBTQ+ people! Listen to ME! ME! ME!”. It sounds a lot like the situation in this thread - sub LGBTQ+ with “woman” (the author of the comic) instead.
- Critical support to Russia. What the admin says is sensible and reasonable… or it would be if the very userbase didn’t print the admins’ words and used it in the PPB pigsty. If you criticise the Russian government you will be assumed to be a NATO shill, throwing all “but critical support!” thing out of the window.
user-blocking
Yeah, user-blocking doesn’t really work for this. It’s a great way to remove random annoyances, but not a whole userbase that thinks that slacktivism and ignoring “the other side” is OK.
Watching Innuendo Studios’ The Alt Right Playbook changed my thinking forever
Dunno if this was a rec, but I’m watching it now. It’s good stuff - first video and they were already spot on.
I’ll probably stay in mander.xyz, but I’ve been watching PieFed from afar for a long time. I really like some features that Rimu is implementing.
[In case some HB user, full of gullibleness, is reading this: think on the purpose of this utterance. Spoilers: context.]Oh, I missed a trick so here’s another separate reply - I hope it is more informative and therefore interesting than annoying to do it this way, split up (but you may have already started reading and responding the other so… you might not read this otherwise).
One of the tricks that HBs - and also Magats - use is to say something, knowing full well that it is not true, but relying on the fact that others will simply go along with it. The lazy bc they won’t bother to fact-check, and the authoritarians bc they don’t want to cause controversy by arguing against their leaders. It’s actually a useful tactic, I have to say, separately from how I may feel about it being attempted to be used against myself.
So I noticed how one of the posts that you linked - https://hexbear.net/post/280770 - did that (hehe, well actually all of them did, repeatedly, but I wanted to call up one item in particular; also they presented it in the largest font size possible, BUT I WON’T YELL IT AT YOU HERE! … ah, anymore than that much:-):
Lemmy.world has slandered Hexbear.net’s name by accusing us of being a brigading troll instance, after days of requesting evidence they have provided none.
So by again sorting the Communities list by Old, and this time it wasn’t the oldest but still it was close to it, I found Lemmy.world’s announcement community, and thereby this post: https://lemmy.world/post/2498330. It lists 8 links - 4 comments made by HBs on Lemmy.world and 4 posts made on HB itself. And then for good measure 4 more links to Lemmygrad.ml that Lemmy.world also decided to defederate with at around the same time period.
Now, I bet you can anticipate what those linked comments said, can’t you? Here’s one for clarity:
deleted by creator
Yeah, well, anyway, at the time, Lemmy.world did provide the receipts requested, whereas HB demanded proof, then ignored said proof, then demanded more proof - and you can see where this is going. Despite how someone tried to deliberately cover up their own involvement - though importantly, only after they got called out for it by the entire Lemmy.world admin team.
My point is that I have never once seen someone from HB use a good-faith argument (or if I have, it has been so long that I cannot recall it). 100% of what I see from them is either the most inane BS, or at best neutral. I would most definitely go to the trouble of learning how to write a bot or Firefox add-in or filter rule or something in order to block such content, but that would only selfishly help myself. Unfortunately, every new person who joins Lemmy must discover this all over again on their own - it is not printed in the sidebar “hey, just so you know, HB spews BS”.
And lemmy.ml is arguably all the worse for being more tolerable therefore more insidious to have to parse.
Anyway, I hope this was interesting. Sometimes, people on the internet lie - and the worst kind are those that tell you the truth, after having lied to themselves (i.e. can no longer distinguish between truth vs. fiction).
Yeah it is all so extremely obvious:
Assume good faith in even the most obvious of questions, except in cases where a user is explicitly acting in a combative or unreasonable manner.
Do not directly link to comments or posts of other federated instances on public posts with intent to goad or mock.
When in a federated instance, their rules (and their code of conduct) apply.
Allow instances their own space for discussion, if requested implicitly or explicitly.
etc., though none of that is ever actually enforced, making it a list of “suggestions puh-lease”, rather than “rules”.
Speaking of voting, as a mathematician you will appreciate this one most of all: https://hexbear.net/post/1712067. Quick summary: they took a vote, then discarded the vote entirely. One of the results was 41 for remaining federated with lemm.ee vs. only 4 for defederation - that is 91% for, vs. only 9% against. And then programming.dev wasn’t quite as close but it was still freaking hugely biased towards one side: 27 (58.7%) for remain federated with them vs. 19 (41.3%) to defederation. The difference between them being 8 votes out of 46 = 17.4% - which is nowhere close to a tie. Unless you are an HB admin I suppose and then:
The end vote for programming.dev and aussie.zone was a tie, so we decided to break the tie in favor of defederation.
This is… just… wow. >91% wanted to remain federated with lemm.ee, and 59% to remain federated with programming.dev, but screw the users - what do you think this is, a vote? Oh wait… :-(
And once again the comments in that post tell the REAL story. e.g. this one https://hexbear.net/post/1712067/4540345:
Multiple users legit left this site for months at a time multiple times due to those dumb struggle sessions. Hexbear even lost devs over some of them
devs!!! They are turning away their own programmers who provide the site that they all use to shit onto each one with!?!?! And given how Hexbear predates Lemmy, I think they actually meant “dev”, rather than “admin” - i.e. someone who did the work of modifying the code, which is all the more relevant given how it is in Rust, which is not an easy language to learn, even for someone starting off with extensive knowledge of C++.
But speaking of admins, the admins themselves say things like:
however we consider providing a safer browsing experience for marginalized users more important than the opportunity to dunk.
THE OPPORTUNITY TO DUNK - not the opportunity to converse civilly will, not the opportunity to learn, to listen, to discourse, but TO DUNK.
And ofc the admins are not the only ones speaking thus - “Compromising the ability to spread leftist ideas to others in order to…”, “They’re reading what we’re saying and the message is still getting spread. Our ideals are spread through interacting with people…”, “you can’t stop some users from seeing the ridiculous fascist takes”, “Where do they think new users come from? They don’t spontaneously appear from thin air they appear because other people are exposed to them in other spaces.” - and here’s one that literally uses the actual word “disrupt”: “With Lemmy, it was about building something that was going to eventually create its own theatre-of-operations that disrupted existing ones, and hexbear was going to be connected to that so I could always justify it.”
The only reason that Hexbear exists and is federated with any other instances at all, from the mouths of the very self-same admins that run it, is… again… “THE OPPORTUNITY TO DUNK”.
So when e.g. Cowbee comes in, ignores 95% of what I say and hyper-focuses on one tiny little aspect, demanding that I show proof of all of my work, while not offering any for their own points and instead just saying “just trust me bro, and hit up my DMs where we can talk more” (but then forgetting I suppose that they said that, or presuming that I could not read it in the very self-same post, or more likely presuming that others would not take the time to do so, and then they claimed that they had never done such a thing at all, hrm…).
The Innuendo Studios series is absolutely one of the best series on YouTube that I have ever seen! I just presumed that you already knew of it, but yes if you haven’t taken time to watch throuhg all of them, you absolutely would probably enjoy it! Everything he’s done is amazing too, like the agency of protagony. Also the gamer-gate one, titled something like why is jack so angry, b/c it shows the historical development of those trends - but that was just a precursor to the ultimate one: The Alt-Right Playbook.
I see these same tactics played out over and over and over and over and over and over and over again by people like Cowbee, and it is just exhausting. I LOVED your take-down here, but that simply cannot keep up with the absolute TSUNAMI of bullshit that “they” are able to spew. It takes them two seconds to say something and move on, so even if it takes you only two minutes to reply, let alone two hours, then they “win”. And either way they declare that they do so. As Trump is pretty much guaranteed to do so, if he does not outright win himself, in about one month from now.
So that’s the thing: anybody can go in and read these comments, from the HB’s very own mouths. The highly ironic thing is that they actually ARE behaving themselves quite well when they are out here!!! Compared to what they do inside there, that is. (have you seen the pig-poop link yet? ewww…) But who is going to spend that kind of time?! And yet, their messages are chosen to be spread all across the entire Fediverse, unless the instance takes the requisite steps to specifically defederate from them. Like a CSAM attack, this is a wave of hostility and more importantly childishness that festers inside their borders, but also explodes outwards to affect us all. Unless we go somewhere that has enacted defenses to keep it out.
At which point it becomes relevant that especially when they noticed that they were getting defederated from most of the major instances, and their admins chose to defederate even more other instances, many HB users fled to their alts, e.g. on Lemmy.ml. Even if those alts had existed prior to that, still, they became the new vehicle through which the HBs chose to spread their messages.
No wonder 100% of the people that I have told about Lemmy irl looks at me so oddly - one glance at the all feed, at the types of things coming out from like memes@lemmy.ml, and all the toxicity spewed from HBs and HBs under the guise of other alts, or others who were never on HB but act the same, is always enough to turn my irl friends away from Lemmy. And has finally done the same to me, now that places such as PieFed and Tesseract are available (but possibly would have been enough regardless).
To be fair, the voting there is just to probe the waters, the admins still want to take the final decision.
About users (incl. devs) leaving, it’s worse in the context:
Yeah, pre-federation Hexbear was noticeably worse compared to now. I really don’t understand what people see in pre-federation Hexbear. I guess it was less openly bigoted, but seeing all those bullshit struggle sessions and people who you regard as your acquaintances arguing over the stupidest shit isn’t exactly great for your mental health either. [emphasis mine]
Multiple users legit left this site for months at a time multiple times due to those dumb struggle sessions. Hexbear even lost devs over some of them
When r/CTH was banned from Reddit, I thought that it wasn’t to blame - it’s just that the Reddit admins wanted to throw a bone to the fascists, as CTH was in the same banwave as frensworld and clownworld. I mean, it’s spez/kn0thing, we know that “umm, ackshyually, we don’t hate you fascists. See? We’re also banning some left-wingers! Please stay in Reddit, our dear fascist userbase”.
However, if I’m reading those two comments right, that is clearly false. CTH → Hexbear was already tailored to cause trouble to other communities back in Reddit; this tendency only continued in the Fediverse.
And unless it has a target, its users will fight each other, even if they’re all leftists and consider each other leftist, so they can’t even pretend that they’re just dunking libs.
[from the other comment]
One of the tricks that HBs - and also Magats - use is to say something, knowing full well that it is not true, but relying on the fact that others will simply go along with it.
The alt-right playbook that you linked mentions it, under “changing the goalposts”.
[And before some casual reader tries to distort this into the horseshoe “theory”: nope. I’m talking here about rhetoric tactics that you see regardless of political views. It’s just that the alt right loves it, and HB happens to love it too.]
And lemmy.ml is arguably all the worse for being more tolerable therefore more insidious to have to parse.
It’s kind of funny how it remembers me Marx’s The 18th Brumaire - specially the first two paragraphs. As if the .ml admin team (and Lemmy devs) were mimicking what Reddit did as trying to create something new, but being bound by the already existing circumstances so they’re forced to replicate how the Reddit admin handles users:
- trying to handle clearly incompatible groups, and failing at it;
- hidden rules (in Reddit it was “profitability”, here it’s the admins’ views), opaquely enforced through the listed rules
- admin team can’t be arsed to verify if users actually violated a rule (explicit or hidden) - if it looks like a violation, assume that it is, and then refuse to go back on the decision
- muppets assume that the user is by default bad, unless there’s obvious evidence contrariwise (sometimes not even)
…and as a result .ml ends as the farce for Reddit’s tragedy.
That kind of voting “strategy” might best be described by the keyword “gamble”, as in it could pay off or… it could backfire. This was public. We all saw what they did. They dangled the whittle “vote” in front of their users, then they snatched it away. That’s a “power move”, as in someone flaunting their dick size just to show off - worse, a tiny one, while daring someone to talk back. The emperor has no clothes, etc. THAT level of insensitivity is on full display.
The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. Two lefts do not make a right. 1+1 != 1.9, nor 2.1, but precisely 2, the former two answers revealing how it is possible for both to be incorrect even if in opposite ways - and then other answers such as 2i, e, -100000, and “your mother” are examples of still more ways to be wrong, although oddly enough “two” could be correct, depending on whether the rules are flexible enough to recognize such.
Flipping to lemmy.ml, I have enormous respect for those code developers having offered their skills to release that for the entire world to use. Kudos. But running an instance is a different skillset - and yet, back when other instances were not yet a thing, they offered that too, to help lemmy get off the ground. Kudos again. Though power corrupts, and over time… Anyway, just b/c something started off one way does not mean that it must continue forward indefinitely - the word for that might be “stagnation”, or even “inflexibility” to adapt to changing circumstances.
I agree with all of what you said, except how things appear twice. I think rather than people refuse to learn from history, and therefore mandate that it be repeated, far more often than twice. e.g. Rome fell, now USA is the new Rome, and it will fall too, whereforth who will step up to the plate next? (after a few hundred to a thousand years time ofc, to allow time to forget) Humans are so incredibly stoopid - or at least I know that *I* am - and we love to fall in love with ourselves and our latest bright shiny idea, as if it had never been tried before.
Not that I am blaming the founding fathers of the USA - far from it, b/c (1) it was an experiment, and (2) it actually did work out well all across the wide world. However, it was a piss-poor implementation, which if it was to have been considered as worthwhile then steps should therefore have been taken to have made it more robust. But fast-forward to nowadays, facing up against things that it has never really had to contend with before - chief among them a level of foreign aggression that costs the actors so little, yet yields such enormous dividends; but not far behind is the incredible stupidity that already lies within and is totally separate from that, especially seeing as how it predated it by hundreds of years - and I honestly fear that it cannot stand against such an onslaught (especially this 2-pronged assault) for too much longer.
So in my view what we need to do is WAKE UP. A fire is in the building and we should do things about that. Secure our valuables (e.g. children), identify an exit (if there is one), and the like. But then in the face of all of that, to listen to the likes of HBs… wow, just wow, uh… no. I would leave social media altogether rather than put up with the likes of that. Except when I made my account I did not know. And also it took me months to figure out the extent of the problem, e.g. that it includes lemmy.ml too. And also I did not want to simply leave, without telling others first of my findings. And also Kbin had fallen, long may Mbin yet live, but others were rising up to take its place - and while Sublinks seems perpetually not yet ready, PieFed is looking mighty fine these days. I can be free, not just keeping lemmy.ml at arm’s length, but fully and entirely free, from all that bullcrap. Though I am certain that it will not be perfect either - it lacks a lot of the polish that Lemmy has for instance, and yet even there it has things that Lemmy does not, e.g. I’ve asked questions and seen changes made in (not even tens of) mere minutes! Which itself could lead someone to ask… why wasn’t it made already?:-P But anyway that’s a far cry from begging to be able to defederate from the toxic userbase on lemmy.ml, and a year later we seem further from that goal than ever before - almost as if there is resistance to providing such a feature…
Celebrate. Move to another instance. Dbzer0, Solarpunk, Lemm.ee, .world, there are a bunch of choices. Takes some work to revive a community, but it’s very doable. .ml has trash admins and mods, and that’s unlikely to change.
I agree, but I would take .world off that list at this point. It’s getting weird. Not necessarily time to leave yet or anything, but if you have a choice for where to set up a home, I would pick one without little developing red flags.
Don’t think I’ve seen anything from the .world admins that makes me second-guess making my home here. Not to say they’re perfect, but I don’t think I’ve seen anything that would make me think “Wow, these guys are in some way, fundamentally objectionable” rather than “These are amateurs making amateur mistakes, as one might expect from a volunteer service.”
Some of the more established mod teams are less than stellar, though. Plenty of good mods, but certainly a fair share of mediocre or tetchy ones.
my tetchy self includedI wasn’t trying to say they were bad, nothing like that. I agree, there are some great people, yourself included. I’m more thinking in terms of:
- No VPN access, no bot API access
- Defederated from beehaw
- MediaBiasFactCheck and whatever the fuck strange thing is going on with that
- Busy, overworked admins, trying to do too much
I wasn’t trying to imply they were bad people by any means. Just raising a question about why to make them the default when there are options that don’t do those things.
It’s a follow-on problem, I think, stemming from the combination of the volunteer nature and the scope of how much they’ve bitten off. I finished, this week, the first draft of my magnum opus essay about problems of incentives in the Lemmyverse where I talk more about this and will probably post it soon.
Wasn’t the Beehaw defederation something to do with open sign-ups on .world at one point?
Otherwise, yeah, I get that. It’ll be good for other instances to take up more of the load, both for the Fediverse as a whole and for .world in particular.
Otherwise, yeah, I get that. It’ll be good for other instances to take up more of the load, both for the Fediverse as a whole and for .world in particular.
Strongly agree
We’ve been working on !movies@lemm.ee and !showsandmovies@lemm.ee , which are now more active than !movies@lemmy.world and !television@lemmy.world , but some people keep posting on the LW versions for whatever reason
Well, you’re never going to capture 100% of the audience of another comm on a decentralized place like the Fediverse. If you’re interested, though, you might try reaching out to the mods of those two to discuss getting a pinned post directing to the more-active community? Or at least a mention in the sidebar.
Well, you’re never going to capture 100% of the audience of another comm on a decentralized place like the Fediverse.
Indeed, but on the other hand a very common complain on threads asking about current Lemmy issues is how discussion is fragmented across several posts for the same link: https://lemmy.world/post/20926036?scrollToComments=true
It wouldn’t be that much if an issue if we had 100k monthly active users, but with our current userbase, we are probably too low to have multiple similar active communities to coexist.
There’s also the choice problem: people in that same thread also complain about not knowing where to post when there are two similar communities, and end up not posting at all.
If you’re interested, though, you might try reaching out to the mods of those two to discuss getting a pinned post directing to the more-active community? Or at least a mention in the sidebar.
The television one is unmoderated.
Last time I reached out to the movies community to consider maybe redirecting to ours as they were looking for new mods, they removed my comment.
https://lemmy.world/modlog/1291 5 months ago
I think beehaw said that accounts from .world were causing a level of moderation load that made it effectively impossible for them to provide the types of community they wanted to have.
I get it. I don’t even know whether it is anything related to .world, or just because of you host half the users then you will also host half the trash which will look like a lot. I have noticed that when things get too big, something gets lost.
To be fair, Beehaw is still running on 0.18.3, even though the current Lemmy version addresses some of the issues they had.
I’m not sure what the status is on their side. I get that they don’t like the Lemmy devs, but then Piefed could be an option, it’s probably feature equivalent to their version of Lemmy
The Beehaw admins explain it.. In their own words:
The choice to defederate from an instance can also be based on our inability to effectively moderate that instance’s users. As of now, only two of our defederations are on this basis (lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works), and we hope to eventually refederate with both of them.
Lol keep being tetchy PugJesus, we like you that way 😂
I have observed mod action and bans of users when no rules were violated on lemmy.world several times. The news and political subs might as well be on .ml as they heavily censor opposing views. I’m not talking about anything against the written rules. There’s lots of unwritten ones.
Mods on other instances at times follow the ideas of lemmy.world, so you might get automatically banned elsewhere.
Getting banned means all your posts and communities get deleted without a trace.
sh.itjust.works has been good so far.
I have observed mod action and bans of users when no rules were violated on lemmy.world several times
Feel free to report those on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com
That really helps to call out power tripping
I am on lemm.ee for a year now I just created account .ml to become mod dying !stardewvalley@lemmy.ml community.
Well, might try creating the Stardew Valley community on Lemm.ee then? You could do some reposting if you wanted a bit of easy activity while things wind up.
Yep, Done
That’s the best move - a lot of people have blocked or avoid lemmy.ml, so having a community outside of it will help them. I helped start !horrormovies@lemm.ee as an alternative to !horrormovies@lemmy.ml.
Thanks for mentioning it - subbed!:-)
And subbed.
Just turn back. ML is a waste
Ah. Well, you learned your lesson about interacting with Lemmy.ml, it sounds like. :-/
Really
Yup, really. Things like this are a dime a dozen in
.ml; not just from the mods, but also the admins.
I have a rule. I will not join ANY community on .ml
Even if I would otherwise enjoy the content.
I’m even a fan of Stardew Valley, and I would like to subscribe to your…oh. It’s on .ml?
Hey, quick question. Does anyone know any decent Stardew Valley communities on Lemmy? I’d love to know if we have any Stardew Valley communities!
Why someone could even make a brand new community, and I would join! Any Stardew Valley on any instance besides .ml and besides any that defederated from .world.
!stardewvalley@lemm.ee Just created
Just memes? I enjoy the game but I’d rather see content that’s actually about the game.
I was just crossposting my old post which I posted back then on .ml. You can post whatever you want no problem. I will also post patchnotes, news, guide and cool finding of mods of Stardew Valley.
There’s a post about tips for beginners, that’s a start
Sounds like you should join an instance that defederates .ml
Is there any? I’ve always seen hexbear and grad defederated, but not ml
I think dubvee.org.
Eh. The only yhing I don’t like about .word is that they defederated from the piracy instance.
I generally don’t believe in defederation. The ONLY reason I can think of that justifies a defederation would be if there were an instance distributing csam or racist/nazi propaganda.
I may not agree with .ml, their ideals, or their mods, but I will defend their right to exist.
That being said, I’ll fully support the idea of any .ml community moving away from that instance as we have seen here.
I may not agree with .ml, their ideals, or their mods, but I will defend their right to exist.
I mean, they can still exist, defederation just mean you won’t interact with them. I personally think defederation is a powerful moderation tool. Not saying it should be used lightly.
Defederation has more reasons to be than just a bad (CSAM / bigot) instance. Such as two userbases at each others’ throat, without one being necessarily bad; or when you want to actively nurture a different culture or goals for a instance, without the rest of Lemmy drowning it.
That said I agree with you that there’s little to no value on defederating
.ml, as the problem there is the higher ups and not the general userbase.there is no defederation from “the piracy instance”. one or more communities have been removed from being accessible through lemmy.world due to piracy content, but the instance is not defederated. this means that other communities on that instance are still accessible and all users on that instance can still freely interact with lemmy.world communities and users.
Just FYI, you don’t need an account on another Instance to become a Mod there (you do need one to start a community).
Just FYI, you don’t need an account on another Instance to become a Mod there (you do need one to start a community).
Reports are still not federated, so having a remote account prevents you from dealing with them
Indeed - looks like they plan to have it done by 0.20.
Dessaline(One of Lemmy Dev) said I need a account on .ml
You’d need one to receive reports but your lemm.ee account can be a Mod over there.
Dbzer0, Solarpunk, Lemm.ee, .world
I mean, none of these defederate from .ml right?.I feel like people say a lot of bad stuff about .ml but nobody seems to actually defederate from them. Why is this?
.ml 's big problem isn’t the users, but the communities/mods/admins, unlike Grad and Hexbear. So defederating doesn’t meaningfully decrease the workload for the mods or admins of a defederating instance by much.
Honestly, the users can be quite annoying at times too
I mean, in the sense that if I see someone with an awful pseudoleftist take about how putting minorities in the minority-crushing machine is actually Good Praxis in Creating A Revolutionary Crisis, I could put money on the user instance being .ml. But the vast, vast majority of folk from .ml seem fine enough.
That’s a good point.
They’re defederated from the instance I’m on for what it’s worth.
Your instance has a single admin, that’s always a bit concerning
There are quite a few topics mostly active on ml
Basically FOSS and privacy communities
- !linux@programming.dev is a thing, but !linux@lemmy.ml is far more active
- same for !opensource@lemmy.ml and !opensource@programming.dev
I imagine they’ll all have counterparts elsewhere eventually. Did my bit with !horrormovies@lemm.ee.
The instance is the home of two of the core Lemmy devs, defederating would be a last resort for Admins.
Personally, I’ve never had much of an issue with their users (they tend not to cause too much trouble outside of their instance) so it hasn’t felt necessary.
Report to the local gulag for ideological reeducation. Or go to another instance.
After only three generations you will be considered for early release. But seriously, that instance is an irredeemable cesspool.
One of the reason why our instance defederated from Hexbear. They’re not there to discuss in good faith, they’re there to incite and provoke, then they start crying if you reply back to their nonsense.
They’re not worth interacting with.
To be fair I’ve had good discussions with a few of them, so I can’t generalise.
But… yeah, some of them don’t quite realise that the childish behaviour that would be OK in HB is despised elsewhere, and that it’s the the major reason why their instance gets defederated so bloody often - it is not red scare, it’s “get the children back to the kindergarten so the adults can talk”.
Hexbear has been far more level-headed than Lemmy.world in my experience, it’s definitely red scare. Lemmy.world admins admitted as much on their end.
Every time I interacted there, I got pile-dived. They’re not level-headed at all most of the time. If one goes against the accepted positions, especially in things like “left unity” or North Korea, it’s all baiting and insults until most people are eventually banned as “liberals” at best for reacting to it.
Sure there’s a few mature people in it, but there’s way too many tankies who take being in hexbear as an excuse to be massive assholes as often as possible.
I think l.w. is also not perfect either as it’s pretty aggressively centrist, but at least it doesn’t feel like a kindergarden most of the time.
I think that a key distinction that we need to do here is between what happens inside their instance versus outside.
Inside their instance, you might get some shitty situations (like you being piledrived), but I think that what @Cowbee@lemmy.ml says holds some grounds - it’s mostly a space for Marxists. I don’t use it often because I have a better time lurking in Lemmygrad, but it has a reason to exist.
The main problem is once they leave. Then the piledriving becomes brigading; and all that implicit agreement that they have among themselves (such as “mayocide” being typically uttered by someone who’s themself light-skinned, and not genuinely preaching genocide of people based on skin colour) is suddenly not there, they’re discussing with people in a completely different mood, they’re in a situation where their political discourse will be in conflict with what others users say, they’ll be likely in the minority so prone to ask for backup…
Frankly I think that their decision to enable federation was a mistake.
If you search on hexbear.net for the keyword (de)federation you should find several occurrences of hexbear users saying that about their own instance.
I think 0.19.6 is when communities will be allowed to mark themselves as “local-only”, and I believe that ChapoTrapHouse, the_dunk_tank and some others will remove themselves at that time. Thereby making the experience opt-in rather than opt-out.
The main problem though is that the users, once incubated inside the echo chamber, will come out into the wider Fediverse with the precise same style, or even if dialed back 10-fold, still extremely aggressive. We already see numerous examples of people who after hexbear.net was defederated, switched to their (possibly already existing) lemmy.ml accounts and continued as they always had. For these people, no (defederation) means yes (another opportunity to dunk, from a different account). And if people started defederating Lemmy.ml more commonly, then they would surely migrate still further, to possibly lemmy.world or Lemm.ee that is extremely permissive and does not defederate from practically anything including lemmygrad.ml.
Then again, we know that we cannot control others - only ourselves. And also the only thing required for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing, so though it would take constant vigilance, making the experiences of new people joining the Fediverse is either something that we decide as a community to make better… or we don’t, and accept that we are steadily losing people over time and with little possibility to reverse that trend, until and unless Reddit finally kills of old-reddit, but quite frankly even then. Not everyone is a scientist on mander.xyz or Arch Linux user btw anywhere else - and fully 100% of the people who I have told Lemmy about irl not only turn away in disgust at the behaviors and politically extremist content that is presented here, but furthermore admonish me for even mentioning it to them. We who curate such things tend to forget what it is like to be a newcomer, and see everything fresh all at once, but not know how to curate the experience. i.e. I don’t think Lemmy will ever become “mainstream” as a result, especially not within the USA. Which a lot of people here don’t seem to care about, but it does make me worry about keeping what little content stream we have here going… Though Mbin, Piefed, and Sublinks might, depending on how they handle such matters differently from the Lemmy instances.
Without knowing what got you dog-piled, you say it yourself, you broke the anti-sectarian rule. I do think that expecting to be treated with kindness when breaking instance rules directly is a bit of a tall order, especially if you use the term “tankie,” which these days just means “Marxist.”
As a Marxist, I’ve never had a problem on Hexbear, but many problems on Lemmy.world. I know you’re not a Marxist, but generally Anarchists are also treated well. The only time it doesn’t work out is if you have an anti-Anarchist Marxist or an anti-Marxist Anarchist, in my experience, and it seems lije you’re more of the latter than not.
Without knowing what got you dog-piled, you say it yourself, you broke the anti-sectarian rule. I do think that expecting to be treated with kindness when breaking instance rules directly is a bit of a tall order,
Actually no. I broke hexbear’s “no-sectarianism” rule in my own instance’s anarchism comm and got dogpiled there. Since then, I’ve been getting dogpiled whenever I commented in hexbear even though I carefully strayed away from any “sectarianism”. But once one’s labeled as a “wrecker” elsewhere, it doesn’t matter if you’re doing any rule breaking or not in hexbear.
especially if you use the term “tankie,” which these days just means “Marxist.”
I use tankie in the original meaning. MLs who support brutal authoritarian suppressions of dissent.
The only time it doesn’t work out is if you have an anti-Anarchist Marxist or an anti-Marxist Anarchist, in my experience, and it seems lije you’re more of the latter than not.
I’m not actually anti-Marxist. In fact we still have hexbear federated because I think most marxist have generally the right takes albeit terrible praxis, so it’s good to have more people pulling towards the left in discussions. I am however very anti-imperialist and anti-authoritarian and I believe “left-unity” with MLs and Anarchists doesn’t work, at best. The latter part is naturally what made me a persona-non-grata in hexbear eyes.
I know you don’t agree with Lenin, but I think reading Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism may help you with understanding Marxist-Leninists. And, for what it’s worth, Hexbear seems to be making ML/Anarchist unity work.
Would it make me understand why hexbears are dogpiling anarchists who reject “left-unity”?
And, for what it’s worth, Hexbear seems to be making ML/Anarchist unity work.
For some definitions of “work”, maybe. From my perspective it “works” the same way “unity” works in /r/politicalcompassmemes.
Hexbear has been far more level-headed than Lemmy.world in my experience
This whole thread proves that this is false.
And, granted, I’m partially at fault here - since I was kind of expecting them to behave like 11yo kids once the teacher is gone, and having some fun at their expense - but note how they’re in an otherwise serious discussion and doing nothing but shitposting.
if by “level-headed” you mean “one-note” maybe
I mean “reasonable to talk to,” and I stand by that.
im speaking from my experience as much as you are from yours
Sure. In general, whether someone will have a better time on .world or on Hexbear is largely dictated on if they are a Marxist or not. I am very openly a Marxist, the rest follows naturally.
if I weren’t such a charitable bastard i’d be tempted to say that sounds one-note. good for us I am modest and magnanimous and would never say such an uncharitable thing.
Dunno, but seeing you taking part in this and encouraging bad behaviour…
I agreed with the message, not the tone nor how it was delivered. You can see me elaborate in my own words on that thread.
If you have a problem with what I say, engage it directly.
Thank for your honnest reply. I consider you are encouraging them. If you disagree with the tone, can you tell OP to edit his message and remove insult ? So we can aknowledge it as proof of good faith.
Thank
If his comments aren’t breaking the rules and can stay up, I don’t see why you feel the need to strong-arm me into submission for “proof of good faith.” I have called out comrades before, I don’t do it every time, especially when I clarified my position on that thread already.
They are all breaking the rule, but i asked our modo team to let this post since i wanted to try talking with you all.
Otherwise, you would never change, neither them.
My main point is that you shouldn’t encourage people to do that because they will continu.
For example, when you are in a group that insult lonely people. There is a social mechanic, the harasser need supporters. It gives a sense of being in a group and loved. If we remove the supporter, then the harasser would have less reason to continue to do so, don’t you think ?
That’s why i asked you to talk to them because i also defend Hexbear, in my own way.
I believe you can have a positive change on them since they will be more willing to listen you. I believe you are the right person, you can take a more active role.
.ml is bullshit, one mod owns most of it with alts, and if you aren’t a bigot or fascist you get banned.
leave that toilet behind.
let’s watch an unreliable narrator get sympathy from a bunch of lowlifes primed to project their own axe to grind towards a community that excludes their toxic assesIf you have information that contradicts OP’s narrative, by all means, share it. Otherwise you’re just trolling.
Removed by mod
They posted a crosspost link on .ml to the stardew valley comm they created, contradicting their complaint about getting banned
There’s no contradiction between complaining about having one account banned and cross-posting with another.
So cut off the crap. You aren’t fooling anyone here.
The mod log says they were banned for breaking the rule against bigotry [rule 1]
And I’m calling bullshit on the stated reason why
.mlbanned OP. More on that later.The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, you fucking moron, not the person casting doubt on it
Epistemically speaking the burden of the proof falls on both, since you’re “conveniently” omitting that you didn’t just “cast doubt” towards OP’s claims - you also did your own claims there, by implying that the ban was to exclude [ipsis ungulis] “their toxic asses” from the community. (Whatever “toxic” means.)
On a moral level though? OP is defending themself. Have you ever heard about presumption of innocence?
In both cases, you still need to back up your claim. Now at least try to pretend to be a decent person, and do it, instead of running again with tail between legs.
Just on a personal note, you’re a fucking idiot for taking a story like this on face value when even in the OP’s text the actual reason for the ban isn’t touched on. It’s amazing how poor your critical thinking skills are.
My sides went into orbit. That’s specially hilarious coming from someone who shows blatant gullibleness towards the reasons stated in the .ml modlog.
But let’s roll with it. Contrariwise to your assumption = bullshit, I don’t trust OP’s narrative due to lack of critical thinking skills. I trust what OP is saying here because it’s extremely consistent with what I’ve personally observed as a former .ml user who used to mod two comms there:
The .ml admin team, as a team*, has the same reading skills of a potato, is often prone to witch hunting and assumptive behaviour (consistent with this case), and uses “rule 1” (bigotry) and “rule 2” (unwelcoming behaviour) as catch-all for “we want a bullshit reason to get rid of this poster”. And it never admits when it fucked up.
If you want evidences of that, just go dig on the defederation of ani.social, where the admin team distorted the concept of child sexual abuse material to [unnecessarily] justify it. Or I can come up with the modlog of one of the comms I used to moderate there. Your choice.
*I’d gladly give you names. But I don’t know if it’s allowed here.
Removed by mod
[Note for other users: since the other user is simply grasping at straws with argumenta ad hominem, and there’s zero valid argumentation, I’ll have my fun at his expense.]
While I can appreciate how much effort you put into the affectation of the appearance of intelligence [implied: “lvxferre is pretending to be intelligent”]
“Oh noes! How does someone DARE to disagree with Our Holy King AntiOutsideAktion? They must be stupid!”
…or perhaps I’m intelligent enough to not fall for your obvious bullshit. Not that this is some achievement, because I bet that even a dog could do it.
and how well you’ve internalized “more words = more good” as a writing style
If my verbosity deeply offends your precious, oh-so-precious sensibilities and your entitlement to abridged content, well… I don’t care.
Now let’s see if you have some actual argumentation or if you’ll keep whining [yes] this shitty ad hominem. (Onwards “AAH”)
I observe that you are still a dumb motherfucker who should just keep their idiot mouth shut.
Nope, it’s still AAH.
And bossing me around to “waaah! shut up! shut up!!!
I’m going to cry if you don’t shut up!” is ineffective, by the way.Basic reading comprehension: I was calling you and the rabble of .world accounts toxic.
I.e. you were using a non-descriptive weasel label that can be used to justify everything and nothing at the same time, to whine at LW users and me, because you have the same intellectual honesty of a hypothetical child of Elon Musk and a genderbent Spez, and can’t back up your claim.
But no, something must be wrong. People aren’t laughing at your shitty arguments because they’re bloody stupid. No - it must be because they’re stupid!
Yeah, I’ve heard of it. Where did you hear of it? In a court system? Not on a private forum the owners of which can decide who they want to join or not?
Oh look, the Musk x Spez child never heard about moral values. …and suddenly your babble makes a lot of sense.
Again, I’m not calling you a fucking moron frivolously. You’re a fucking moron.
“Again, I’m not calling you a fucking moron frivolously. You dare to disagree with me, even if reality magically bends around my belly button and makes even my inane and immoral shit become true, As if By Magic®”
AAH still ongoing… *yawns*
The word is “gullibility”
Yeah, nah. The word “gullibleness” is registered at least in Wiktionary, WordHippo, bab.la, and the spelling corrector that I’m using.
Next time that you want to prescribe against the usage of some specific word, at least make sure that the word isn’t actually valid. Otherwise you’ll keep making a fool of yourself. Although… by this comment, it’s clear that you’re willing to be the laughing stock of everyone here, right?
But hey. Let’s pretend, for a tiny moment, that your prescription held some merit here. Ah, my bad if my L3 English offends your sensibilities! I forgot that Lemmy is supposed to be the WASP e-Lebensraum, and that you’re expected to have native tier proficiency! Mayocide is threatening me and I must fight against it!
lol
Yeah, I’ve already noticed that you’re braindead. You don’t need to reinforce it.
Ordinarily I wouldn’t expect someone to brag about moderating a pedophile instance.
Finally, you found something else than argumenta ad hominem! I’m so proud of you!
And it’s still a fallacy. Changing goalposts - since the bullshit claim that ani.social contains CSAM is too stupid even for you, you’re now claiming that it’s a “paedophile instance”.
Stop making shit up. Not even the individual .ml admins agree with each other about it. It’s just that one is too stubborn to admit that he was wrong (he does the same all the time in LG), and there’s another [not in the linked conversation] clapping to what the stubborn one does.
(Blame still goes to the admin team as an entity.)
This concludes my response titled “Why you’re too much of a stupid piece of shit to engage with seriously”
You do realise that, if you did this in your own home instance, you’d be correctly banned, right? You’re supposed to disengage without arguing. (Or trying to, in your case.)
That without even considering the blatant linguistic prejudice that you showed in this comment.
“You could’ve gone to sleep without that.” - local saying.
Removed by mod
WHEN WILL YOU DENSE MOTHERFUCKERS UNDERSTAND AN AD HOMINEM ISNT “WHEN YOU GET INSULTED”?
No, I’m not conflating both things.
Depending on the way that the insults are being used, they do count as argumentum ad hominem. Basically when you dress them as counter-argumentation, in order to defend a point - like that user is doing, there’s exactly fuck zero argumentation, the whole thing boils down to “u’re coment is wrong because ur a ass hat lol lmao”, to the point that my answer is… well, simply shitposting in return.
What doesn’t classify as ad hominem is shit, for example, like you’re doing now. You’re being like a 12yo who discovered their ability to call others “u poopy head lol lmao”, but not really using ad hominem since you aren’t trying to dress it as the argument.
In other words: contrariwise to your assumption, yes, I understand the difference. And it is still argumentum ad hominem.
Hey, It’s not worth it in the end. We don’t need to defend anymore. But Thanks for your support.
Bigotry? When? I didn’t say anything bad
Your comments were all deleted and I trust the admins of .ml more than a day old account that was banned instantly for Rule 1 violations after trying to take over a comm.
Did you take screenshots?
I trust the admins of .ml more than a day old account that was banned instantly for Rule 1 violations after trying to take over a comm.
“I’m gullible towards people in a position of power, once they say that they’re communists.”
I’m a communist too. (Seriously) Trust me, you should go lick a cactus.
Serious now. You don’t even need to trust me, or anyone here. Just pay attention to
.mlmodlogs and take your own conclusions.Also, when sharing shit in the dunk tank, remember rule #1.
Removed by mod
You’re now inventing a position the other hasn’t even claimed to approachh.
Not really. I’m framing what he said in a different way, to highlight how stupid it is to trust = be gullible towards the .ml admins more than someone random banned by them.
The reason for trusting moderators of .ml has jack shit to do with the ideology of the instance
I think that both of us know that you’re lying.
I’m not blind to the red scare going on. But I’m not blind to you all using it as an excuse for every single thing.
And it is clear why they’re doing it. Since there’s some red scare going on, you kids are using it as an excuse for everything and a bit more. Specially because it’s a give-and-take here.
Also, I am a year old lemm.ee user. You can check my account too. You can check modlog of my account too. Most of the time my post get removed by me or some other mod because I accidentally post them twice(It was jerboa error or sometime I post to different community). Even, I have some conversation over !badposting@hexbear.net, !technology@hexbear.net and !arestraightsok on hexbear.
I don’t have screenshots. Sadly :( but you can see them on Modlog I guess.
Whenever a hexbear user is involved in the debate you know they are gonna be on the wrong side of it.
Shout out to all the .ml accounts downvoting this comment 😂
Ml has become a sespool of bigots and propagandists like hexbear so you’re better off just leaving.
I was recently banned for calling someone who was calling for the death of all Americans an idiot.
dude YOU’RE the idiot for taking an obvious shitpost by someone who is themselves likely american seriously. it’s called hyperbole for comedic effect.
I’m the idiot? Do you even know what you’re talking about? There was nothing comedic about it… Are you being comedic? You’re defending someone calling for the death of all Americans…
Also I was banned and my comments were deleted, was that for comedic effect? You couldn’t possibly be that dumb so you must be a chatbot running interference.
Removed by mod
yo mods bpr this fool
Death to america I will never drink a Pabst blue ribbon
😂 at least this one has a sense of humor.
Removed by mod
I don’t usually block people because I genuinely like hearing any good faith opinions.
That being said, I’ve blocked the entire .ml instance.
deleted by creator
I figured blocking the instance would kill a lot of the interactions I had with the users there since I wouldn’t see their posts. Seems to have stopped a lot of the random goofy dog piling they like to do.
Ye they just got upset over nothing and went straight to the ban hammer for no reason. Just stick with lemm.ee and let that community grow.
Blocked the instance. Havent looked back.
Looks like a CLM situation here, but approaching PTB for how fast they ignored all context to wield the banhammer.
Yep, It’s CLM situation
.ml is a crap instance. The amount of highly upvoted communist propaganda as memes is staggering.
The reason why .ml is a crappy instance has nothing to do with communist propaganda. It’s lack of transparency and shitty moderation practices.
I mean… por que no los dos?! :-P
Like, if you are going to start literally executing landlords, then that’s one thing, but otherwise it’s just a pure fantasy, imho, divorced from the harsher realities of existence. i.e. it’s childish, as you’ve noted elsewhere, which is fine except how it is exported to the entire Fediverse without really a way to fucking turn it off.
Though I’ve found two: lemmy.cafe and dubvee.org both have fully defederated from lemmy.ml. Mbin, PieFed, and Sublinks all each have their own approaches as well.
For me the communist propaganda there is OK because the goal of the instance is clearly to create a comfy environment for the devs, and they’re interested on that content. Unlike, for example, on seeing people bringing the same old arguments against communists, over and over - this gets old really fast.
If this was openly said, in the rules, there would be no problem. People who aren’t OK with this would stay away from
.ml; and the ones who still insisted would be clearly in the wrong, even for non-communists to see.Except that in no moment they say it in the rules or the content policy. If you read both you’re misled to believe that the instance is TL;DR “we focus on privacy and FOSS; everything goes except bigotry, rudeness, porn, or spam”.
So for me, the issue is not the communist propaganda. It has a reason to be there. The issue is that the instance is clearly geared towards one target audience and content, but claims to be made for a wider demographic.
Right, exactly!
Also I was unclear: I am likewise not against the (actual) communist content so much as I am against the “communist” content, i.e. I was saying that it doesn’t even look like actual communist content to me. Like, Russia is ostensibly a “democracy”, though really is a totalitarian regime, and also capitalist, so to claim that it is “communist”… does not fit with reality itself. And similarly for China. Also, America is bad for being a democracy (BUT!) and being capitalist (B-B-BUT!?) and for supporting genocide (b… 🧠 🦗), while neither Russia nor China somehow does any of those things - certainly not towards its adjoining sovereign nations.
Though you cannot bring up such “facts” or “logic”, instead you have to dance to their tune, despite never being told what it even is. And it could change at any time. And they hold community content hostage to your compliance.
Hrm, if this all sounds terribly familiar… we have seen all of this before.
For one thing, even Huffman’s Reddit was not as bad as that - it too forced compliance, but at least it was fairly open about that fact. (Here I’m ignoring the toxic userbases, of both Reddit and Lemmy.ml.) And 🤮X🤮 as well, though it seems far worse there (I never had a Twitter account though, so I’m probably hugely biased by seeing only the worst examples that people show here about it). But more to the point, this sounds to me like Maga behavior - regardless of factual evidence, your behavior must conform to comply with their unwritten rules… or else. Far-left vs. far-right, I’m honestly and legitimately not seeing much difference here, especially if Russia is somehow both at the same time (once in fantasy and again in real life).
Although at some point that becomes our problem, for condoning, excusing, painting over, or even simply ignoring the issue. Fortunately, Mbin, PieFed, and Sublinks are doing more about it:-).
What? No, I highly disagree.
The OP is a great example of what I’m talking about: admin in charge moderating content of a comm about a topic that they’re clueless about, not arsing themself to check it, assuming the worst, telling OP to kill themself*, filling an opaque ban under “rule 1”. That’s all poor moderation practices, the later is lack of transparency, and the post has zero to do with communism, economy, or politics.
This shite is a dime a dozen in
.ml. And while it does affect political topics, it’s considerably wider than that.*whoever is in charge sets up the behaviour standard for the others.
Having looked at your other post about it and the original thread, nah they were pretty in the right to take it down. What was depicted in that comic is exactly the sort of thing I’d imagine when thinking of toxic masculinity, it makes me extremely uncomfortable to think about anything like that happening in real life as it very clearly depicts a form of sexual assault. I really don’t like the idea that this is something people think should be normalised, sexual assault is more than just r*pe. It doesn’t really matter if it’s from a game, it’s an entirely valid point and that’s as far as the discussion should go.
That said, the “makes me want to shoot you” comment wasn’t called for and they should apologise for it, even if they were trying to make some other point.
When that scene happens, the player’s avatar and Shane are already dating. He is not kissing some random person, but someone who already showed romantic interest towards him.
And while the sprites are ambiguous, the kiss is clearly on the cheek, until the player avatar returns the gesture and makes it a French kiss. Give this a check, around 13:08.
All this context is widely understood by players, because they looove to talk about those heart scenes. And the comic is read within this context.
So while I agree that sexual assault is not just rape, this is simply not sexual assault by any account. There’s no violation of consent and, funnily enough, the sexualisation comes from the players’ avatar (a woman in this case, but it could be also a man - the scene plays identically in both cases), by turning it into a French kiss.
Demonizing non-toxic masculinity and happy honest sexuality, by pretending that this comic depicts toxic masculinity or actual sexual assault, does favors to no one.
I can understand that a certain type of person could look at this and see a justification for assaultive behavior. Erasing the concept that something like this could ever be a wholesome thing, making the good side out to be something that is also the bad side and has to be shunned or equated to actual SA, makes that problem worse, not better.
I agree with you that it can be SA but it’s a cutscene of game where both NPC and Player already love each other so yeah.
But it’s not, it’s a comic with none of that context
It was posted to a community focused on the game, which has been out for many years. The event is well-known for those who have played the game a bunch, so the context is kind of already assumed by the intended audience. It’s not as if OP posted it to a random comics community without any explanation, it was presented to a group of people who are already familiar with the story.
While on the other hand, authoritians always “know better” than the people underneath them. Even - nay, especially - when they do not.
Yep, I know that’s why I added context later when that user claimed that. Even provied game cutscene video. Now tell if I am wrong or not. If I added context is it still considered SA? Sorry, If I am wrong.
Yes, yes it is. I’ve tried to explain to you at length how it’s SA even in context (the “why is he making excuses” argument) and how it’s harmful even if there was context redeeming it (the “it’s visible to people without such context” argument).
I do not understand why you’re so adamant about defending cartoon SA and the harm it can cause.
Gee, I wonder why somebody is resistant to hearing you out after you told them you wanted to shoot them. You owe sag an apology, not excuses.
It’s just a comment bro.
Don’t pretend like you don’t understand how telling somebody you want to shoot them is an unreasonable escalation.
Should I add CW on this type post to avoid accidental PTSD triggred? Or is it also not enough?
Kissing the person you’re dating is toxic masculinity now? Jesus fucking Christ. Please explain what toxic male stereotype was depicted here to make it make sense. And did they both rape each other too, since they were drinking a can of beer and thus were not able to consent? Or does that also only work for men? And yes, it completely matters if it is from a game, or any other fan fiction’s source. It’s a comic of a scene from its original source material. Context matters but people like you just want to be asocial. Just because you’re not aware of the context, does not mean it doesn’t exist.
ml users say a bunch of dumb stuff e.g they consider the terms ‘dick sucking’ and 'dick riding ’ to be misogynistic and homophobic
Look man, I’m just giving my opinion of how it looked to me, it’s fine if you disagree. But you don’t need to be a dick about it.
I don’t know why you’d say I want to be asocial, I read the comic and it made me pretty uncomfortable, within the context of the game sure fair point, it’s fine. But not everyone is going to see it that why, so I disagreed, I’m not whatever monster you’ve decided I am.
Please explain what toxic male stereotype was depicted here to make it make sense.
Kissing someone that’s intoxicated without asking for consent first. (Even with consent you should ideally wait until both of you are sober to ask again)
That’s not a toxic male stereotype.
But but but man bad
Pretty sure they were being sarcastic guys
OP you did nothing wrong, and this comic is cute. Keep up the good work!
I’ve added the link over at !de_ml@lemmy.blahaj.zone who have a list of alternative communities to ones hosted on ML.
