The petition is open to all EU resident. The goal is to replace all Windows in all public institution in Europe with a sovereign GNU/Linux.
If the petition is successful it would be a huge step forward for GNU/Linux adoption.
For governments, I think the priority should be exchange and archive formats. Regardless of what apps and platforms they use, I as a citizen should be able to read that data via free software. Govt should be able to read what I provide to them. Govt in the future should be able to access archives if they have moved to free software.
Next is the platform ( the OS and the web browser ). You can run your proprietary video editing on Linux. If demand on the scale of ALL European gov moved to Linux, I assure you that Linux versions of the software they need would exist ( even if still proprietary ). I use Outlook on Linux every day. I also use Teams ( usually on Edge ). RMS would hate me. But I only archive to AV1 and Opus, never HEVC and AAC. Most of what I use is FOSS.
Least important really is the apps. I have no problem with companies solving problems better than FOSS and getting paid for it. Even by gov. As above though, those that do not need the “better” version should be free to use something else. And the “default” ( for things like basic docs ) should be FOSS too. This is just not as important as the file formats and platforms.
If they can keep the MS lobbyists out, it’s feasible, just ask Munich.
Except they couldn’t keep the Micro$oft
criminalslobbyists out
PSA: You can support this petition even if you’re not an EU resident
Is that So? How?
I just signed it, but I’m in eu
It lets you sign up as a country outside the EU and sign it
shame the form is absolute dogshit, only options for title is mr. and mrs. and they want a username for some reason?
This is an uphill battle in the face of corporate lobbying, learned fixedness, and, let’s face it, unintuitive UX that is found in some selection of FLOSS which is often absent in proprietary counterparts: something that people who are not tech savvy (tech-indifferent?) would prefer not to put up with.
However, I think the last problem can be mitigated with the right kind of focus and funding from such initiatives.
There have been many such initiatives[0][1] over the years in different countries where they eventually lose steam and fade away.
Also, is there an operating system backed or sponsored by EU that is actively maintained, analogous to BOSS[2] and Pardus[3]?
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:State-sponsored_Linux_distributions
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_adopters
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Operating_System_Solutions
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardus_(operating_system)
E: typo
Adopting Linux is the best way to help ensure European sovereignty from maga meddling.
I mean I’d be fine with BSD too. the point should be to force public institutions to use FOSS
FreeBSD is fine for servers I guess, but due that most server administrators know Linux better than any BSD, it’s probably not going to be used much. BSD’s also seem to be severely underfunded and the future of them seem vague.
That would be incredibly dumb. There are entire fields where the FOSS is just hilariously behind proprietary software (or sometimes the only option). Do you want to cripple public institutions by cutting them off entirely from proprietary software?
Right now public institutions are paying for proprietary software. If they would invest the same money into FOSS, the FOSS option would not be behind proprietary software for long.
I think the point is to invest the money into the continued development and improvement of the foss software instead of giving the money to businesses who shield their proprietary codebase. In theory.
Switzerland already did it. Its brilliant. Instead of the gov pouring money into proprietary solutions to meet their needs, they can fund FOSS and benefit from the same software being funded by other governments and companies too.
Proprietary is crippling. Its only chosen due to corruption
“There are entire fields where the FOSS is just hilariously behind proprietary software”
- “hilariously”?
- Examples?
CAD, CAM, EDA, audio/video production (NLVEs, DAWs, synthesisers etc.).
There are open source options sometimes, but they are all faaar behind the commercial options. No fiscally sane business or government department would use them (unless they only need a small job, or are quite masochistic).
CAD is a good example. Open Source CAD solutions are very basic even for “normal” users and it does make a difference. Proprietary still makes sense for CAD today even with the FreeCAD 1.0 release. My son and I did just design a keyboard though using all free tools ( including PCB ). So not impossible.
I feel like the multimedia production stuff is less compelling specifically as we are talking about government.
The number of government employees that need a DAW ( as a percentage ) has to be vanishingly small and could be handled as exceptions.
Video production feels like a great example of where proprietary software is probably holding things back.
The vast majority of govt employees that need to edit video have very basic needs and could be served by FOSS solutions. Today, a few need top professional apps and I agree they should have them. My guess though is that the real problem in govt today is that lots of people that could benefit from video editing capability have been denied the budget for those pro apps and so have no capability at all. A FOSS solution may dramatically improve govt ability to create modern media simply by virtue of being available to a wider array of users.
For governments, I think the priority should be exchange and archive formats. Regardless of what apps and platforms they use, I as a citizen should be able to read that data via free software. Govt should be able to read what I provide to them. Govt in the future should be able to access archives if they have moved to free software.
Next is the platform ( the OS and the web browser ). You can run your proprietary video editing on Linux. If demand on the scale of ALL European gov moved to Linux, I assure you that Linux versions of the software they need would exist ( even if still proprietary ). I use Outlook on Linux every day. I also use Teams ( usually on Edge ). RMS would hate me. But I only archive to AV1 and Opus, never HEVC and AAC. Most of what I use is FOSS.
Least important really is the apps. I have no problem with companies solving problems better than FOSS and getting paid for it. Even by gov. As above though, those that do not need the “better” version should be free to use something else. And the “default” ( for things like basic docs ) should be FOSS too. This is just not as important as the file formats and platforms.
and could be handled as exceptions.
Indeed. The original comment was
the point should be to force public institutions to use FOSS
So it sounds like you agree with me that that is dumb. Use of FOSS should be strongly encouraged, but to force it is masochistic.
Sure but nobody is petitioning for BSD desktops in the EU
Sigh. Guess I’ll have to do it
I’ve always said governments and public institutions funded by taxpayers should use FLOSS and not be beholden to private companies. Any shortcomings or unfulfilled needs in Linux and FLOSS software would quickly be dealt with once large organizations like these started using it as the default, since they could easily fund whatever features or fixes are needed for significantly less money than they pay for proprietary software (especially now that these days they’re forking over annual subscriptions), and thus they’d also have much more control over the making sure the software meets their needs.
It seems like a no-brainer to me. Maybe it wasn’t in the earlier days of Linux but not for the last decade or so.
Total proprietary capitalist hellscape
Foss: "lol, we don’t need you, we have lin-
ENTER: new global Ai standards that depend on proprietary blobs that only work on nvidia hardware and Windows.
Foss: “w-we don’t need Ai.”
PLEASE UPDATE YOUR BROWSER TO USE-
Foss: “STOP IT!”
UNSUPPORTED
WE SEE YOUR PHONE
Foss: “you wouldn’t…”
UNSUPPORTED
I like and support the idea in general, but the petition’s scope is just too broad and lacks focus. Migrating to Linux? Sure, but let’s not force a single distribution across the EU. New EU mobile OS? Nice idea, but there is no solid alternative unless a lot of time and money is spent on developing it.
Maybe it’s too early in the morning, anyone got a link, I couldn’t find any?
The post does contain the link to the petition, anyway it’s this one: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/it/petition/content/0729%252F2024/html/Petition-No-0729%252F2024-by-N.-W.-%2528Austrian%2529-on-the-implementation-of-an-EU-Linux-operating-system-in-public-administrations-across-all-EU-countries
This was helpfull but Its in Italian so here is the English version LINK
This is a link sharing platform. All posts are supposed to have a link to a news article. Its at the top.
Based.
“I’d just like to interject for a moment…”
Cope
You sound super nice.
It’s ridiculous that governments don’t use customized Unix/Linux builds.
I expect 100% already do. Its ridiculous that they’re not forced to, though
well that’s what this law proposition is about… Better late than never but for it to be passed a maximum of EU resident should sign that petition
Funny enough, I’m working in IT in government exclusively with Linux for the past 20 years, which shows that indeed it’s possible.
There are a few reasons I don’t believe a petition like this will change a thing though
It would definitely prove interesting
Didn’t even have to open the link to know it was red star. I’ve heard rumors of others as well.
Why? I’ve worked in two companies where IT allows Linux as an option and people are constantly having issues (including me). And these are highly technical people. Two people who are not stupid managed to break their laptops by uninstalling Python 2 which Gnome depended on.
Yes that’s technically a UX issue, but there are plenty of good old bugs too, e.g. if you remove a VPN connection that a WiFi network autoconnects to then that WiFi network will entirely stop working with no error messages to speak of. Took me a long time to figure that out. Or how about the fact that 4k only works at 30fps over HDMI, but it works fine over DisplayPort or Thunderbolt3. The hardware fully supports it and it works for other people with the same OS and laptop. I never figured that out.
That’s just a taster… I almost never have issues like that on Windows or Mac.
Windows may cost more than “free” but the additional support costs for Linux are very far from free too.
Maybe something like Chromebooks makes sense if everything is in the cloud.
Or how about the fact that 4k only works at 30fps over HDMI, but it works fine over DisplayPort or Thunderbolt3
Blame HDMI forum for that. They objected to AMD releasing open source driver for HDMI 2.0+ that lets you do higher modes like 4k60 or 5k etc due to patent reasons. DisplayPort folks on the other hand, had no objections. DP is quite a superior technology too, so if you could, use it instead of HDMI please.
I don’t think that’s the reason. It works for other people.
It’s literally the reason
So why does it work for other people with the same laptop and OS?
They’re using a proprietary driver, not the open source one
BUT HOW COME THIS THING I DONT UNDERSTAND IS HAPPENING?
Why?
It makes no sense for a government/military to use a proprietary system made in another country when there’s a very strong movement inside of said government for an open system. They have incredibly smart people at SUSE, Manjaro and KDE right on the inside and you are telling me they can’t do better than hitting subscribe on Office365?
Assume the EU and US have a conflict, now the EU is stuck with an entire ecosystem made in the US. Assuming they don’t already have all your internal data, they can just get it with a single click.
They could have opted to build and use the eurofighter but didn’t, instead choosing to rely on the expertise and good relationships between EU and US. At that time.
you are telling me they can’t do better than hitting subscribe on Office365?
Yes I am absolutely telling you that.
Assuming they don’t already have all your internal data
A devotee of Our Lady of Assumption, i see.
That uninstalling python2 bit reminds me of stories of users deleting their system32 folder to free up disk space.
Yeah except that uninstalling Python 2 is a perfectly reasonable thing to want to do.
Since Gnome depended on it, they would have had to intentionally push past warnings to force the uninstall, assuming they’re using a distro with a dependency mapping package manager… So, no, that’s not a perfectly reasonable thing to do
they would have had to intentionally push past warnings to force the uninstall
Go and learn some basics about UX. Two different very smart people made this mistake.
IIRC there are no warnings. It will just list gnome in the list of packages to uninstall that you often get when uninstalling things, and can easily ignore.
Again to reinforce the point because many people do not understand it. Just because it was possible to avoid the issue if you were careful does not mean that it is not an issue. People make mistakes. Seatbelts exist.
No OS idiot proof. You can delete critical files on Windows as well. Next up you will be complaining registry edits break Windows. You straight up removed a dependency of the desktop.
In the future you can run software in containers so you don’t have to care. Just install distrobox and podman.
Windows will actually stop you from deleting
Program Files.Nobody is asking for idiot-proof, just mistake-resistant. It’s ok, most people don’t understand this point.
Not if an essential part of the OS depends on it (your “UI”)
Which the package manager would have warned them about.
Meaning they deleted it manually instead of using the package manager OR just ignored all warnings and forced the uninstall.
These were too intelligent but too dumb for their own good user errors lmao.
Bloat
We exclusively use Windows on our user’s devices (over 10k devices!) and don’t have to support anything else. We end up with problems like those all the time.
- occasionally all installations become blocked no matter what means or which user, requiring reimaging to resolve.
- DisplayPort connections mysteriously failing and requiring reboots of the device and sometimes also the dock or monitor. Sometimes we even have to swap the cable out, even though the cable will continue to work in another setup just fine.
- using a different brand of dock than the ones we have at our hotelling stations and disconnecting for any length of time causes wifi to fail until reboot
- wifi at the office mysteriously stops working as you move around the building, requiring restart
None of our Linux test devices experience any of this.
Do you have 10k Linux laptops though? The places where I worked saw issues like this for a significant fraction of the dozens of Linux laptops (most people used Macs). There’s no way you could scale that issue rate to 10k machines.
In an enterprise imaged Windows laptop they and you probably wouldn’t have superuser privileges in order to keep yourselves from doing stuff like deleting core Windows dependencies. Maybe they give you full administrative access at your company but if you deleted the Program Files folder to save time you’d be blamed by pretty much everyone.
You guys obviously have root privileges or else you wouldn’t have been able to delete the system’s core Python2 installation. And frankly you must have literally manually deleted it because the package manager would have told you what havoc you were about to enact and made you tell it to do it anyway.
But what’s even weird to me is that most python devs I know, including myself use python virtual environments (venv) to use different versions and package bloat control from something like pip but keep it all nice and neat.
If you wanted python3 to be the default you have to change the PATH in Windows or if you don’t know what you are doing I guess reinstall whichever python with a .MSI an hope it does it for you.
Meanwhile, in Linux you can just use the alternatives utility to literally pick your preferred versions and it takes care of the paths for you.
And with the HDMI issue? You must not be using the same graphics drivers and someone is using proprietary graphics drivers (won’t have the issues you’ve described) and the other is using open source versions (you’ll have the issues you’ve described) because companies are shitty about their proprietary closed standards.
Which brings up another point. You say you all use the same laptop model and OS but you don’t all use the same drivers? There’s no baseline? There’s no control?
This sounds like a Hell of your own making. This is why users in general should never have full administrative privileges and they should be tailored down to just what you need. Epecially if they haven’t yet learned the basics of the OS they are using because they are at best a danger to themselves and at worst a vulnerable laptop inside the network.
If you were having issues why did you stay on Linux? It sounds like you were constantly fighting it. It is best not to waste work time trying something new.
Because my current company is too cheap to buy Macs, and the project I work on is full of Docker and bash scripts and obscure EDA tools. Would be a nightmare on Windows. WSL is a possibility I suppose.
My main worry with Linux becoming more popular is that it will be attacked with more malware and viruses. I wouldn’t mind though if Linux programmers could come up with better protection.
Most of the Windows malware gets deployed by some user downloading and executing random files they downloaded on the web. Since installing applications on Linux is usually done through some centralized package manager or app store (Flathub), it almost entirely eliminates this attack vector. Running random scripts from the internet by downloading them using
curland piping them intosudo bashis a whole nother issue though. Noob-friendly distros like Ubuntu should IMO have some safeguards in place to block these actions.Since installing applications on Linux is usually done through some centralized package manager or app store (Flathub), it almost entirely eliminates this attack vector.
xz moment.
Yes, I see that weasel word “almost” in that sentence. I expect it’s going to be doing increasingly heavy lifting as Linux becomes a more lucrative target to attack over time.
Your point generally stands, though. Even if they’re fallible, at least someone is vetting it at all somewhere in this pipeline.
They have, snaps
Linux is a lot easier to secure
Linux-based OSes are less uniform than Windows. They could and probably will be targeted, but exploits won’t spread because of how many verities they are and how different and incompatible they can be. Some, for example, don’t even use the GNU utils and userland.
This petition is for developing something dubbed “EU-Linux”, so if implemented as is will be pretty uniform
That is mostly false. Most of the code that faces the network is the same. As is most of the background running code. Linux is still more secure.
Linux is already what a decent chunk of servers run, so I don’t really see it increasing malware.
Well, servers don’t generally run Thunderbird and Firefox
The insecure parts of Linux is mostly on the DE side opposed to the core OS part that servers use. We absolutely will see more vulnerabilities in the future as Linux grows.
Many developments over the last few years have been for improving those aspects, e.g. Wayland is far more secure than X11 could ever be. There will be more vulnerabilities found, but it won’t be as bad as one might fear.
Wayland takes a lot of abuse but it is a great example of what is great about FOSS. Completely proprietary software could never abide that level of disruption.
If being driven by a minor player, it is just too hard and too risky. A commercial player with the economic dominance to pull it off would never see enough financial benefit to bother.
Take Windows. Even though modern Windows is from the “New Technology” branch of the Windows family, the security model was flawed with all users commonly running as Admin. Instead of really changing that, they have introduced a couple layers of duct tape ( eg. UAC ) but not fundamentally fixed it.
Flatpak too, they could force more filesystem restrictions tho, line Android apps
What vulnerabilities are you talking about? Linux is pretty solid especially with wayland and flatpaks.
Throw in some other tools like mandatory access controls and you are set
