I get both sides of this argument. Some businesses have certain periods where it’s extremely busy followed by an ebb in work. Accountants for example may be balls-to-the-wall at year end, but that period doesn’t justify hiring somebody who might otherwise have their thumb up their ass and nothing to do most of the rest of the year. I’ve also had IT jobs that resolved around projects in this way., and there are always a certain number of SME’s that you kinda need at launch.
At the other side, I’ve known employers who basically ran the bare-minimum amount of staff for a team/project (or less and worked the rest to the bone) and getting them to sign off on holidays for any reasonable length of time was near impossible. Those are the types that would try to call you from the middle of open-heart-surgery if they could, and yeah anyone in this situations should be looking for a new job. The hard part being that getting the time to do proper job hunting was often also similarly difficult because of work, and bills still needed to be paid.
I don’t think I agree with the second comment. I work in a team. If you just take it and leave them to handle your shit, you are an asshoke. If you say it in advance and sort your stuff, then do whatever you want
I mean, there are jobs where the first posters advice is relevant. I’m a musician, and there are just rehearsals I cannot miss. When I am working with a high school, I cant take PTO during key production days or performances because I am the only person at the place that can do exactly what I do: that’s why they hired me.
I work on a business communication tool. You know those things you have in your phone that people send messages to and expect you to answer.
When I leave my computer, that’s it, I’m done. I don’t have the application on my phone. I didn’t check email or messages after 5 or 6 and most days I work for a few hours before I check them.
On weekends, I turn off my computer.
I’ve been doing this for years now. No one notices, or if they do they are smart enough to not bring it up.
I came up in a world where we were the ones introducing Yahoo and AOL into the business world, I had a phone on my desk that was essential, and email was king. I rarely had a laptop and they were quite rare. When you left the office, it was expected that you were some for the day.
The grind culture over the last decade or so is insane. It is insane that people will give over half their time to a company that would show them the door in an instant.
Yes, you should do everything possible to set up your team and colleagues for success when you take your PTO, but that should never require a tether to the office.
I remind my team about their vacation and floater days on a quarterly basis and all them to be used. All I ask for is time for me to pivot as needed and if you have ongoing projects that you reschedule planned meetings, document as you go, and ensure access is available to the rest of the team if needed.
I’ve had employees in the past who I’ve sat down and directly asked them to take time off (paid) because they were burning out and would otherwise push through it. I’ve even reminded some of available leaves of absence for situations in their personal lives.
If the business can’t continue without any one person, then the business isn’t sustainable as-is and that’s not fair to anyone. Hire more people if it’s coverage or train your people if there’s skill gaps. Documentation of systems and processes is also crucial.
I think managers like you are important for helping cultivate perspectives that are better situated to challenge various bullshit under capitalism. Whilst some workplaces or managers actively make it difficult for people to take their earned vacation days, there are also plenty of places that will apply a passive pressure that causes people being disinclined to take time off. Working in the first kind of place can make you more vulnerable to the insidiousness of the second workplace.
Sometimes, in that second kind of workplace, when you insist on taking your vacation days, the pressure morphs into more overtime coercion, but often, there ends up being no repercussions — often, they don’t want to fight people on it, so they rely on workers effectively oppressing themselves.
The more people that are practiced at taking what they’re entitled to, the easier it is to resist shitty workplaces that try to deny us what few privileges our contracts entitle us.
Take PTO Make sure your absence maximizes disruption that only you can fix Clean everything up right when you get back Job security!
Says the guy who has Scrooge Mcduck as an avatar. Sure buddy.
Depends on the job Are you in food service/ factory lines Or maybe you are a plumber with city contracts and deadlines to meet
Your examples are … not good.
Food service employees are still pressured not to take personal time and/or scheduled tightly on short notice. They’ll feel this pressure regardless if people look down on the job or not.
If you’re a plumber with a team but can’t weather planned or unplanned man shortage, that’s a management issue .
If you’re a solo plumber with this issue, you’re the manager you should blame for not being able to take time off for yourself.
As an immigrant, I thank the god and fates I didn’t end up in America. This level of guilt tripping and toxicity is astounding.
It would be if it weren’t satire.
Poe’s Law. Many, MANY people would unironically agree with Priv’s comment.
majority even if you are on linkedin
Well, I hope so. I heard many stories from other cultures about toxic work environment in their country, and prefer the work culture here in Ireland.
It varies greatly by company. My current company is pretty chill, but my previous was definitely not chill.
Yeah I have been given an almost identical speech about taking PTO at more than one place of work. So if this is satire, all it is doing is just saying something that really happens.
It certainly happens, and I highly doubt it’s unique to the US.
Our policy is to let the team know in advance when you’re taking it if it’s a long leave (a week or more), that’s it. If that’s not possible, whatever, we’ll figure it out.
yeah, you put in for it early enough for your management to have the time to properly prepare for your absence. However what this is saying is that you should shoulder this responsibility at the cost of your entitlements, rather than the company doing the work of preparing for you to use your entitlements.
Yup. As a manager, give me about twice as much notice as you plan to take off, and I’ll figure out the rest.
I take the other members of the team into consideration. It does make sense since I work with them fives days a week, don’t want to make shit harder for them, within reason.
Exactly! Not taking your PTO will create pressure for your coworkers to also pass over their PTO or work longer hours.
Don’t set a bad precedent.
Not taking it? I’m talking about picking when to use it, not if you are going to use it lol ofc you use the time off
I think what the guy above you meant is that he’d take PTO but try to make sure it’s not 1) At the same time as everyone else, or 2) at an anticipated super busy period.
Where I come from, legally, we have to plan our PTO out for the year in Jan/Feb. Good managers will make exceptions and let you take spontaneous PTO with two weeks notice usually.
This means that if you have a team of 8 and each wants to take 2 weeks in the summer, usually max 2-3 people would have overlapping PTO. Everyone gets PTO in the summer, but you don’t leave a single guy doing all the work. Usually anyone who has pre-existing plans would have higher priority over specific dates than anyone else.
The system works most of the time. You’re happy because nobody is going to guilt you about taking PTO, your coworkers are happy because nobody is left alone to deal with the entire team’s workload, and the bosses are happy because work continues at like 70% and if there’s an emergency, there’s someone to handle it.
Yea, no. At my last job every project was constantly late because they kept over promising and clearly didn’t have enough people for what they committed to. I couldn’t even get a department meeting once a month for an hour because everyone was always “too busy”.
These projects always need everyone to commit to it like it’s a personal passion project because their goals are unreasonable. If they can’t handle someone being away for a day then the manager clearly cannot plan and/or the enployees need better training(in my case half of them were simply stubborn and ineffective on top of the questionable management). Sure, don’t take a week off right before a reasonably set deadline if the work’s not done but otherwise do whatever.
I had someone call me yelling because I was going to finish the job in exactly the amount of time I said it would take me, but I started a day late due to technical errors which made another project go over by a day(and that day I still stayed late to make sure things were done!). If you can’t take a day off then you also can’t be sick, and if managers don’t account for THAT obvious possibility then they are fucking stupid and awful managers, zero exceptions.
Yes but a good manager will arrange a replacement for you after you inform them that you’re putting in the PTO. It shouldn’t fall on your shoulders.
If they can’t find a replacement then they should hire more people and try to overstaff every single day so that there’s always someone to cover. That’s what my workplace does, and because of that there has never been an issue with me taking PTO whenever the hell I feel like it.
I worked craft beer sales for a hot minute. Place was a disaster, so I was already looking for a new job anyway. Labor day rolls around, and I inform my bosses A MONTH OUT that I will be taking a week off at the end of August to go on vacation. They approve it, all is well, everything’s great, I get back to work. The week I leave, I remind them that I’ll be gone for a week, I won’t be available for work things, and that I’ll see them next week. They say cool, tell me to have a great time, and I clock out for the day.
9:01AM, the day I leave, I get a text. “Hey Dogiedog64, when are you coming back? We need to have a chat about some things.” I don’t bother responding, since I’m on vacation, and moreover, I’m driving on the highway. The day passes, I get where I’m going, but it’s past work hours, and I want to enjoy my vacation. THE NEXT DAY, they call me. 9:01AM. I miss it, they leave a message and another text to the effect of “Call us back. It’s important.” I don’t. I’m on vacation, they KNOW I’m on vacation, and it can wait.
6PM rolls around, and I get a text. “Dogiedog64, since you didn’t call us back today, we’re unfortunately going to have to let you go. Your performance wasn’t cutting it and we’ve gotten numerous customer complaints about you.” I know for a fact this was bullshit, as I had done the rounds before I left, and all my customers loved me and our beer, but hated our managers and distribution scheme.
Now, you may ask “what was the point of that story?” It’s simple: companies will find a reason to fire you for nothing, no matter how well you lay out boundaries or plans, so don’t bother treating them like they’re special. I lost my job, but I did nothing wrong; I set clear boundaries and expectations, with ample documentation, notice, and approval, and they STILL fired my ass.
So yeah. Take your PTO. It’s YOURS. Go on that vacation, leave your work life AT WORK, and have a good time. Your coworkers will be fine without you, and if the company collapses while you’re gone, they deserved to collapse anyway. Life is simply too short to spend it all slaving away for a company that hates you.
Damn, what did your union say?
What’s a union? /s
also it’s free to contact the local labor bureau or eeoe if you’re fired for taking a vacation, they’ll even help you with lawyers, mediators etc
If it collapses without you, then maybe it should be your company.
Is there an ending to that story? If I was in that situation, I would have ignored it all and then came back the day I said I’d come back and act like everything was normal, make up something about how my phone got broken or stolen or something.
At the very least I hope you tried to get unemployment or some such!
What beer company?
A local one, in Baltimore. Won’t get more specific to avoid doxxing myself and others.
Ladies and gentlemen, behold the cowardice that allows shit like this to persist in your country
Its not cowardice to avoid sharing Personal Information on the internet. There’s a real possibility to be doxxed just by sharing which place you worked at, and were fired for what reason. Not everyone is comfortable doing that.
If your business isn’t sustainable when I visit family over the holidays, your business isn’t sustainable.
The Scrooge McDuck avatar lighting a cigar with a dollar note makes me think this was either satire to begin with, or the original poster has lost any and all contact with reality.
Personally, I’m so sick of people saying “it’s parody/satire!” That’s on the same level as fucking with people, then laughing “it’s just a prank, bro!”
There’s so many garbage takes and smooth-brained people believing the dumbest shit now, despite having all collective human knowledge at our fingertips… If your super funny satire is indistinguishable from these, it adds absolutely nothing.
I have literally been given a nearly identical speech about taking PTO, more than once…
This is why I use /s .
The internet has weirdly forgotten about Poe’s Law. There are enough fucked up people in the world that you just can’t reliably determine if an outlandish opinion is satire or not.
Even when they are obviously satire, some idiots will take them to heart and repeat them everywhere as gospel.
Business Bros love to run a boiler room enterprise that prints decals for the local dollar store and pretend they’re going to be the next Steve Jobs.
Also the name “privilege log”
Over here in Germany where everybody has at least 3 weeks paid time off (being ill does not count to this contingent btw), it is common that leaves are planned in the beginning of the year for larger vacations, so there are no collisions.
Also, if you have children you have priority during school breaks for paied leaves.
This concept could be copied by us employers also, I wonder why not? Maybe because this way you can pressure your employees with your vacation as leverage
And in this system, it is common courtesy to make effort to make sure your team has as few problems as possible from your absence. Of course it is also common courtesy that you are not contact for anything work related during your vacation time.
This is exactly what seems to be missing in the US: courtesy.
A system that gives everyone entitled leave means better employees and less downtime due to leave (surprise surprise, courtesy leads to coordination).
Shockingly this leads to people caring about their team mates, and things aren’t zero sum anymore.
In the Netherlands we have laws in place to ensure what is called “good employership” and “good employeeship”. It’s basically the minimum of what you should expect from each other in matters of courtesy. Good employership as a minimum states an employer should be thoroughly, not abuse his powers as an employer, substantiate big decisions regarding employees, live up to expectations, treat all employees equal and provide good insurance.
Good employeeship is seen as being at work at agreed upon times (this includes taking PTO), doing suitable work, being honest, loyalty to a certain degree like not starting a company without consultation and “stealing” work from the employer, and descretion/secrecy regarding company sensitive information.
It’s all very general, and most of the time further explained either in additional laws or in a “CAO”, a collective working conditions agreement which is reviewed periodically with the unions (about 70-75% of employees have such an agreement).
if my compensation includes paid time off, I am taking it. my notifications are not requests when the date is weeks or months out. it is informational only.
i do not and never have accepted blackout day etc.
i’m honest with this during the hiring process and it’s, honestly, worked out just fine. especially if you frame it as a part of forward thinking communication and the manager is trying to pretend they know what they are doing.
If communicated and part of the deal, great. I personally think that an employment benefits both parties. And with the mentioned curtisyz that works well.
For example, I leave early for appointments, in the last weeks we had some troubles, so dinner for the hole family was on the employer, a while week of takeouts.
So, if my employer tells me that my vacation colides with a project, I am certain that he checked every possibility, and we try to find solutions, like interruptijg the vacation for a day and taking part in meetings from my hotel room.
And if I can not trust my employer enough, then I move on. I am in the lucky position that the stuff I do, most people can’t.
Over here in Germany where everybody has at least 3 weeks paid time off (being ill does not count to this contingent btw), it is common that leaves are planned in the beginning of the year for larger vacations, so there are no collisions.
Also, if you have children you have priority during school breaks for paied leaves.
This concept could be copied by us employers also, I wonder why not? Maybe because this way you can pressure your employees with your vacation as leverage
And in this system, it is common courtesy to make effort to make sure your team has as few problems as possible from your absence. Of course it is also common courtesy that you are not contact for anything work related during your vacation time.
All of this is possible in North America, but you need a union job.
My day-job is a unionionized Managed Services gig subsidiary of a larger company. The rest of the company fits a stereotype we see in the deLoittes and IBM Pro Servs of the world, but the union contract gives us a sane bit of breathing room:
- 9x9 ‘compressed’ time so you get one day off each week regardless
- statutory holidays are sacred
- OT for weekend work, but it quickly goes double-time so it’s rare; and holidays are 2.5x quickly
- standby time is paid. Call-outs are paid.
- mandated remote work capability. It’s in the union contract, guys, so we can Work From Home Office or Work From HQ as best suits us
The combo of compressed time, stats and careful placement of my 21 vacation days this year will give me 7 carefully-placed weeks off; it’s not contiguous, but it’s really great.
Can you explain 9x9 to me? That’s confusing. 24x7, 8x5 yeah. But you can’t mean that notation? Or did the US finally change to a 10 day week?
9 working hours, 9 days. you hit 80 hours in nine days, so the tenth day you get off. basically an extra day off every other week
Oh, ok. Well, we have 40 hour weeks per law, and a maximum working time of 10hours per day, so we can do the same l, and my employer is fine with it.
Thanks!
But it’s also known that for example august is a slow month so you are not expecting a full workforce.
Yeah but courtesy is running dry as of late :(
you can pressure your employees with your vacation as leverage
Most places start asking for vacation requests a month or two out before schools do theirs. The US definitely keeps a tighter leash on vacation time than Europe. General US sick-time policy is an abomination.
In my industry, the standard is “unlimited” PTO/Sick for salary. You don’t have a limit of what you can take, but it has to be OK’d by your manager. They expect you to take at least 4 weeks.
But if you leave, or they let you go, they don’t have to pay you for time accrued.
Most places start asking for vacation requests a month or two out before schools do theirs.
Sorry, I’m confused. What does this mean? Do schools in other countries not make their annual schedules before the school year begins? Or do “most places” you reference only allow you to ask for vacation during a certain calendar month? Or am I way off with both of those guesses?
Most places I’ve worked ask for people to request vacation by a minimum of one month before said-vacation occurs. Where I live, schools have their entire calendar (including holidays and extended breaks) planned by August. So if somebody wanted to request time off for winter or spring break, they’d probably have plenty of time to coordinate. Does it work differently where you live?
Most salary US businesses realize there is a need for coordinated school vacation schedules.
Every place I’ve worked has managers starting to ask when people are going to take vacation around March or so for the June/July season so that they can try to talk people into moving vacations around for coverage.
One place I worked required PTO requests be submitted two quarters before the time off.
Let me guess - they only approve when it’s a good time, and somehow it’s seldom a good time?
No we’re kind of a unicorn. They’re really good about it.
Couple months ma/pa ternity leave
When I moved, I took most of six weeks off.
I work like hell hour wise normally tho so it’s not sunshine and roses.
oh in america management requests you plan them early then ignores reality anyway.
My previous employer in the US was pretty liberal with their time off policy. I would just submit a request, and my manager would approve or not approve. 100% of the time when they didn’t approve, it was because the email had gotten lost in their in box, so I just pestered them about it. It was assumed that employees would check with project managers of projects they were on to make sure their vacations wouldn’t cause problems for the projects - which basically just meant that I would tell my PMs that I was planning to take X days off about a month from now, and they would say “thanks for letting me know, I’ll work that into the project schedule!”
That is how I expect it at every company! Great!
it is with ‘skilled’ labor
sadly this pool keeps getting smaller and smaller
I don’t see why this pool should logically get smaller. In the other hand though, the USA avoids the way, other countries are handling job training , like the devil water.
No, skilled labor gets more important from day to day. But it costs more. So let’s hire people that will settle for less, and kick them out if they reach there limit.
In most countries, you have a multi year on the job training + school before you consideres a skilled worker in this job. I for example carry the title of a “Journeyman of Electronics and Communication”. I am not working in this field anymore, but usually, most people stay with that they learned.
Long ramble short: no the pool of skilled jobs is shrinking, capitalism is expanding
mostly because that skilled labor pool has been primarily in tech the last 2 decades in the US and tech bro billionaires are currently doing their best to fuck all these workers over for profits
sadly much of the industry will fallow the FAANG corps lead with pay/benefits
Also, if you have children you have priority during school breaks for paied leaves.
This surprises me actually, it seems to have a built-in discrimination from the outset.
I’ve got little PhobosAnomalies at home, and my jobs over the years have taken me all over the place so school holidays haven’t been a priority for me. That said, I wouldn’t personally consider my need to have a week or two off in the school holidays or summer holidays as a priority, more just the same importance of everyone else. After all, having little’uns is mostly a choice (or sometimes, the choice isn’t even available 😢) so it seems like a world of employment law hurt to grant the parents a higher level of priority than others.
That said, I ain’t in Germany so it’s a moot point really.
It’s not actually a rule or law, just what people are usually doing anyway.
If people have the choice to take their holiday on a school break or not, then most take it not on school breaks. Everywhere you go at that time is packed with people.
But taking it during a school break when you don’t need to, when at the same time your colleague can only take it during that time if they want to spend time with their family - well then it is just basic human decency to let them have that timeslot.
Ah, thanks for the clarification.
I understand though, you make great points. There’s a big rumble of discontent in the UK at the moment as resorts proper take the piss during the school holidays, just to take advantage of families wanting to head off somewhere in the alotted times. There’s more than a handful of folk who just pull their kids out of school during term time - whether it’s a good or bad idea comes down to subjective opinion, but saving four figures on going a week or two earlier is quite a convincing argument!
Back on topic: I’m just looking at it from an angle different to my own is all, I’d be pretty pissed off that I’d have my leave request deprioritised for the sole reason that I hadn’t rawdogged a girl more than four years and nine months prior!
Everywhere i have worked so far (office work) the holiday planning was made just by communicating with your colleagues. You just find a compromise that works for everybody. (Although there is a mentality of “first come, first serve”. If you really need a holiday at a specific time, then better state it early, so the others can plan around it.) The official holiday request afterwards is just a formality, because everything is already planned through and the boss has no reason to decline it.
I am sure there are workplaces where it is handled differently, but that is my personal experience as an office worker.
I was so lucky in the past. Now I am working directly under higher management. Dude, things change up here … First of all: no team. Only multiple managers with projects, timelines and the need of me for those projects.
But, as mentioned, the common base stays the same.
I’ll stay far away from management. :)
In my 24 years in the workforce, I ran into such a situation once. And I moved my vacation 3 days and everything was fine. It is not very common. I just mentioned it because I think that it illustrates some back thought on the whole concept very well: employee and their families are important.
Another thing: legally an employer can only deny vacations if your absence would mean major damage for the company.
And if already approved absences are canceled, the company have to compensate you for flights and other bookings. In full
Awesome. Thanks for helping me see your viewpoint - it’s likely a very minor difference in cultural expectations. It’s super cool to see how our bros (other siblings descriptors are available) from the continent work around things.
I’ve worked for a number of organisations in my time too, and one common theme - very much like yours - is that protections against pre-booked time off are pretty strong. Whether it’s being paid double-time; having three times your cancelled leave days refunded for each day you were recalled; or generally just giving you a bonus payment - it’s gotta be pretty fuckin’ wild for someone to be instructed back to work from pre-booked leave.
As you have alluded to though, communication is key 😊
Yes, no. We have strict school attendece laws (and no homeschooling btw), so you can’t just do some vacation sometimes else this year.
Also, the kids have a right to free time and vacation.
And: traveling outside school breaks is far more convenient anyways… no kids at the pool
It’s just left up to the employers. My employer gives me 4 weeks paid vacation, with sick time being additional to that and they have never given me a hard time for taking time off, even with just a few days notice.
We have a mixture. We have laws mandate minimum to vacation time, that the employer must respect the preferred dates for the free time as stated by its employees and only may deny or cancel vacation if the company would take major damage. And major as in: we have to let people go or even close major.
If the employer cancels your vacation, he must compensate you in full for all financial losses due to bookings for example.
In addition, paid time off and working hours are if course also benefits that could be used to attract employees
30 days vacation/ year , to 38 hour week, working from wherever I want, even in some pool in some hotel, and of course, paid sick leave. That is my current luxury.
And don’t forget: about 10 work free holidays per year ;)
That sounds great. I have 10 days of vacation a year (not required by law) and 3 sick days (required by law in my state). 60-80 hours a week, and this is a “good” job. It’s been 12 years and I can’t keep this up much longer. But I look at other people’s jobs for a living, and I know it could be worse.
Maximize the disruption so they know what’ll happen of they fire you.
Then demand a raise.
