I’ve been trying Lemmy for a little while and wasn’t sure how to feel about it.
Today, I wanted to start blocking the most high-censorship instances until I could find a fully zero-censorship instance and simply block all the ones with censorship. Filter bots, not people.
When I looked into it further, I found out there are no zero-censorship instances, because Lemmy relies on a broken “federation” system where each instance is supposed to be able to fetch posts from other instances, but it’s never been finished to reach a fully working state. Lemmy’s official docs say you can’t even do federation over Tor at all. This means it uses DNS, so it won’t actually allow Lemmy instances to fetch posts from each other freely, it just gets blocked instantly and easily, every time the authorities feel like blocking anything.
So you can only ever have the “average joe lemmy” and “average joe reddit” with everything approved by the authorities, and then “tor copies of lemmy” and “tor copies of reddit” where you have free speech but you can only reach other nerds.
People seem to think Lemmy is different because this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people. But it’s the exact same thing, it’s reddit.
When reddit was smaller, you could say basically anything you wanted there, they just wouldn’t let it reach the main audience. Then it got too big, and any tiny part of the audience you could reach would be too big, so they won’t let you talk at all.
Lemmy is now the small part of reddit where you can say whatever you want, separated from the main audience, until too much growth happens and you have to move again.
It’s not actually a solution to reddit. It’s not designed to be different, it’s designed to match the past today and then match reddit’s present tomorrow, while being part of a system that’s about the same in past, present, and future.
Last year, this year, and next year, you’re posting somewhere it won’t be seen by many people, and the system that charges people for ambulance rides is getting another year of ambulance ride revenue, facing no organized resistance. There’s no difference here.
Lemmy urgently needs federation between onion service instances and DNS addresses in order to actually do what most users seem to wish it would do: allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow, while outgrowing reddit & helping undo the damage social media has done to human communication.
Lemmy is designed to fail the same way as reddit when reaching the same size
I didn’t ask you about this. Why waste time telling me about it?
It’s failed like Reddit already and is tiny. The sheer amount of botspam, fake accounts, spam instances, etc makes Reddit look curated.
Lemmy urgently needs federation between onion service instances and DNS addresses in order to actually do what most users seem to wish it would do: allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow, while outgrowing reddit & helping undo the damage social media has done to human communication.
“allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow” apparently meaning “Allow CSAM”
So, until today, you thought the corporate authorities allowed CSAM on reddit?
Or are you just upset that I say what I mean, and mean what I say?
So, until today, you thought the corporate authorities allowed CSAM on reddit?
No, I was pointing out that the “discussion” outside of what the “corporate authorities allow” is according to you, actually just CSAM. I don’t think anyone here wants to “allow” in that.
No, I was pointing out that the “discussion” outside of what the “corporate authorities allow” is according to you, actually just CSAM.
No, you’re just upset I say what I mean, and mean what I say.
I never said CSAM is the only content censored by the authorities.
I don’t think anyone here wants to “allow” in that.
Didn’t ask what you think everyone else thinks.
Also, can I add that Reddit - per its own standards, hasn’t failed. It’s a massive website with a lot of traffic.
We think it’s failing, and poisoning the atmosphere - but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been a big success. A lot of people on the Fediverse do not aspire to grow to be the size of Reddit, and think thats both unrealistic and undesirable.
Also, can I add that Reddit - per its own standards, hasn’t failed.
Didn’t ask. Why waste time with it?
It’s a massive website with a lot of traffic.
Again, didn’t ask. Why waste time typing this?
We think it’s failing, and poisoning the atmosphere - but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been a big success.
Again, didn’t ask. Why waste the time?
A lot of people on the Fediverse do not aspire to grow to be the size of Reddit, and think thats both unrealistic and undesirable.
Again, didn’t ask. Got a reason for typing this, other than to waste my time?
Your original post and comments seem to suggest the end-goal of the Fediverse is to get as big as Reddit, and that it failed due to being overly censorious. It didn’t, and it is not the overall goal of the Fediverse.
Your original post and comments seem to suggest the end-goal of the Fediverse is to get as big as Reddit, and that it failed due to being overly censorious.
Incorrect. You’re aware that’s not what I was suggesting, you’re just making shit up and pretending it’s how it “seems” because you’re very dishonest.
It didn’t, and it is not the overall goal of the Fediverse.
Didn’t ask.
I never said CSAM is the only content censored by the authorities.
Okay, what other content are people on the Fediverse unable to talk about and share?
Okay, what other content are people on the Fediverse unable to talk about and share?
What do you mean? People on the Fediverse are able to talk about and share CSAM, so how would stuff they can’t be “other content” in the way you used the words in that sentence?
Do you mean “share widely,” in which case, you know the answer is everything and it’s weird that you’d ask yet another question you know the answer to?
What do you mean? People on the Fediverse are able to talk about and share CSAM, so how would stuff they can’t be “other content” in the way you used the words in that sentence?
No, people are not able to share CSAM on the Fediverse. Doing so gets your account banned.
What specific topics can you not say on the Fediverse, or indeed any website outside of TOR without the threat of being arrested?
No, people are not able to share CSAM on the Fediverse. Doing so gets your account banned.
What do you think “banned” means? It’s not “killed in the past with time travel” or whatever you’re implying.
What specific topics can you not say on the Fediverse, or indeed any website outside of TOR without the threat of being arrested?
According to Trevor Moore, it’s illegal to say “I want to kill the President of the United States of America”
After posting this:
- Several people spammed me and gaslit me for a little while
- Skavau@piefed.social continued spamming, gaslighting; escalated to trying to provoke inappropriate replies; refused to move the discussion to a more appropriate platform when I pointed this out; started threatening to report me for “insults”
- At one point, Skavau@piefed.social slandered Aaron Swartz era reddit (to me, this is basically slandering Aaron Swartz - this is the one thing Skavau absolutely needs to apologize for)
- After dealing with that for about 12 hours, I was banned by sh.itjust.works
- I learned unlike reddit, being banned by a Lemmy instance prevents you from even logging in to archive your inbox or anything like that
- I am now trying to reply from futurology.today, but there are replies from Skavau@piefed.social that I can still see on sh.itjust.works but haven’t been able to find or reply to on futurology.today (while replying to others)
- My hatred for this species has increased 0.001%, leaving that much more of my love for the planet we live on
So, is there an instance I should actually use? Is futurology.today also gonna ban me for “insults” sooner or later?
The no-censorship crowd is funny. “I wanted to block everyone whose admins block someone, in order to find the people whose admins don’t block anyone, so I could talk to the few people I hadn’t blocked because they don’t block people.”
(And that’s ignoring the traditional entitlement in that people somewhere else deciding not to listen to you somehow means you’re censored locally.)
Hypocracy – and conspiracy-level rambling – aside, there’s actually an interesting kernel of commentary here on how we talk about joining and administering Fedi. On the one hand, we say that newcomers shouldn’t worry about which instance to start out on, because every one connects to every other, but on the other we celebrate how the instanced architecture allows admins control over which other instances to connect to. And then you have the deeper issue of the vast majority of the software assuming DNS, so even if admins do want to connect to Tor instances, they can’t feasably do so without a fair bit of host-system tweaking. Yeah, those mixed messages are just the emergent result of which layer of abstraction we’re talking about in any given conversation, but it would be nice if we could find language that doesn’t take literally the opposite tack on each successive layer.
I don’t know how to respond to this comment. Upvoting and leaving a confused reply.
I’ve read less than half of the comments here, but my main feeling is that the downvotes only happened because they didn’t understood what you said, in their mind you want something even less censored than 4Chan, which will lead to something even worse than 4Chan, they believe that moderation helps in healthy discussions.
I’ve got reserves on that, for example mods should only ask for the user to edit h.er.is comment instead of instabanning them for life, and as i said elsewhere our states don’t only ask platforms but are making laws to “moderate” the internet.But that’s not what you were talking about, these downvotes should tell you that your thought hasn’t matured enough to be presented as a clear project, like here :
I will not be spinning up instances of anything. I will seed hashes in bittorrent-like P2P networks, I will put my posts where they fit, I will look for posts from others in the most anti-censorship ways I can find, and I will hope devs and server admins create a version of Lemmy that’s fitting for more of my posts - while hurrying toward a possible future where Tor isn’t enough to make Lemmy relevant anymore, because P2P networks become the only place worth posting anything.
At first i was furious because i thought that many people opposed freedom of expression, but after reading more comments i’m relieved that it’s still seen favorably by a majority.
The problem here seems to be that your “vision” isn’t clear enough, and that’s probably why you wanted to discuss it with others. The good news is that people didn’t oppose your ideasIt’s a bit late in France so i don’t intend to stay much more online(, and you’ve been at it for more than 12 hours), even if i’d be interested in your answer because i frankly still don’t understand you, sry :/
I’ve probably read less than hald of the comments here, but my main feeling is that the downvotes only happened because they didn’t understood what you said, in their mind you want something even less censored than 4Chan, which will lead to something even worse than 4Chan, they believe that moderation helps in healthy discussions.
He does. By his own admission he wants quite literally, zero moderation. Except for spam. What do you think that would lead to, honestly? What do you imagine the outcome of that would be? What sort of community would that become?
The problem here seems to be that your “vision” isn’t clear enough, and that’s probably why you wanted to discuss it with others. The good news is that people didn’t oppose your ideas
Almost everyone in this thread opposed him bar a few people.
What do you imagine the outcome of that would be?
Depends, i haven’t understood what he talked about, and neither have you. What if it’s a moderation made by the user h.er.im.self, while taking into account the vote of users with the same “tags”/preferences as him ? That’s not his idea but other methods are possible, in any case it’s aiming for an ideal of freedom, it’s left to us to see the best path in attaining it, and internet is still in its infancy.
Almost everyone in this thread opposed him bar a few people.
And they didn’t understood what he said, and you’re always answering aside
They did. I’m sorry, but they did. Most of them focused on his inane objection to any and all moderation and fundamental misunderstandings of the fediverse and how it actually works. He doesn’t really know anything about it, and makes baseless about what’s happened on the site that he refuses to back up.
But again, the core thing here is that most of the people on the fediverse are not free speech absolutists who want to operate in an instance with no moderation.
From what i understood :
- When you’re critcizing the incomplete/broken system of federation, would it be enough if instances can’t block each other(, even if you’d probably don’t mind if users can block instances) ? I’ve seen that same thought in /c/fediverse a few times, along the lines of being able to access a real “All” tab ;
- Instances shouldn’t communicate through DNS because authorities could block it, hence why you’re suggesting to use Tor, it’d make Lemmy a.n free/unconstrained network ;
- You’re making a mistake i.m.o. when stating that Lemmy will become censored like Reddit, because you can’t have the same Lemmy admins for all instances. So, while Reddit banned republicans and communists, it can’t be done for Lemmy(, unless through national/federal laws). You probably already knew that, just in case(, bonus by the devs) ;
- It feels like the core of your speech ? In any case, i’m missing almost all of what’s surrounding it hence the comment above.
- You want instances that can’t block each other, even if you’d probably don’t mind if users can block instances, i’ve seen that same thought in /c/fediverse a few times ;
How would this even be possible? This is essentially forced platforming.
I’m saying Lemmy’s censorship is the same as reddit’s because we still have roughly the same groups as on reddit.
I still post to about the same audience or smaller, not bigger than peak reddit.
The people saying “ambulance rides shouldn’t cost money” are still drowned out by the people saying “poor people should die because I’m rich enough to be the one people listen to” so I don’t think we should choose who to listen to based on money.
If reddit worked as a system the authorities could use to control discussion, what we have now with reddit and Lemmy definitely isn’t any less useful for the authorities that way, because I seem to be making slower progress towards making ambulance rides free, instead of faster progress.
I’m saying Lemmy’s censorship is the same as reddit’s because we still have roughly the same groups as on reddit.
I still post to about the same audience or smaller, not bigger than peak reddit.If these two sentences are meant to be understood together, then it’s misleading to use the word censorship i think, it’s more a mix of a lack of visibility and echo chambers, in which case these are two things that don’t seem debatable/false.
If i understood you correctly, could you expand on your solution ?then it’s misleading to use the word censorship i think, it’s more a mix of a lack of visibility and echo chambers
But the authorities cause it willingly, so it’s censorship, imo. Maybe debatable
If i understood you correctly, could you expand on your solution ?
Another way of looking at the problem is, without Tor federation, all the federated instances will be 100% one group of people, and each Tor instance will be 100% another group
That 100% isn’t healthy, there needs to be a balance where each place has some of each group. I don’t want a place full of nothing but pedophiles, but I also don’t want a place full of nothing but people who send pedophiles to their own place. I want a place full of nothing but people who agree everyone should be allowed to talk
To do that, would it be enough if instances can’t block each other, or if users could unblock the foreign instances blocked by their original instance ?
You’d also want some .onion instances, and that they could communicate with those using the DNS.
Am i missing something ? You seem to also have more to sayTo do that, would it be enough if instances can’t block each other, or if users could unblock the foreign instances blocked by their original instance ?
You’d also want some .onion instances, and that they could communicate with those using the DNS.
Absolutely. That all sounds perfect to me. I actually don’t think you’re missing anything
Then the first part(, leaving the choice of blocking an instance to the user,) is a relatively common desire since i’ve already seen it expressed before. If enough people keep asking for it then it may happen.
I’m making a lemmy app and among other things you’ll be able to follow (a group of )users and not only (a group of )communities, sthg reddit will end up adopting probably. And you’ll also be able to display the “All” tab with multiple accounts. So, if you have an account on lemmy.world, as well as on the instances blocked by lemmy.world, then you’ll be able to have access to all instances at once.
You can see the instances blocked by going to sh.itjust.works/instances, or lemmy.ml/instances, and as you can see only very little instances, for spamming i think, were blocked. Which means that you’re probably already seeing ~99% of lemmy in your “All” tab ?It doesn’t solve the presence of moderators in communities but that may be kinda out-of-topic from your original subject.
(i’m going to sleep r.n., so don’t be surprised if i don’t answer before tomorrow, not that there’s necessarily something to add, but you seemed to go further than being able to talk with all instances from any instance of origin)
And how do you force current instances like lemmy.world or sh.itjust.works then to tolerate /some/ pedophiles exactly?
Because that’s what would have to happen under your system.
And how do you force current instances like lemmy.world or sh.itjust.works then to tolerate /some/ pedophiles exactly?
I don’t get what you mean.
Because that’s what would have to happen under your system.
Again, not sure what you mean.
For crying out loud. You just said: “That 100% isn’t healthy, there needs to be a balance where each place has some of each group. I don’t want a place full of nothing but pedophiles, but I also don’t want a place full of nothing but people who send pedophiles to their own place.”
Now, this implies that the current instances that currently ban pedophiles on sight would be expected to host some amount of them.
I agreed with the title, but then downvoted immediately upon reading your post.
Censorship is not Reddit’s problem. It’s enshittification.
Reddit didn’t fail because Spez has some niche political opinions he pushes and you aren’t allowed to say, it failed because its algorithm/UI is structured to farm users and turn to shit.
Lemmy has major problems and power tripping mods, but its existential issue (IMO) is collapse from spam, trolls, attention algorithms, commercialization, and so on.
But federation is a good first step to avoiding the enshittification traps, like the original internet did until Google/Facebook got such a grip on it.
I don’t want Lemmy to be zero censorship.
In every case I’ve known, anywhere claiming “zero censorship” either adopts it sooner or later, or disappears - and in every one of those cases, it was a godawful place to be 100% of the time. IME, those who do say they want this tend to be either edgy teenagers, crackpot conspiracy theorists or psychopaths.
Sure, you can say “well, zero censorship except bots” - well that’s censorship, isn’t it? And given no anti-bot tactic is reliable, you’ll be blocking humans. Or you can say, “zero censorship except CSAM, or extreme pornography, or anti-terrorist” and you’re either applying societal laws or your own morality on others. You can’t use “no censor” and “except” in a sentence without contradiction.
If you want zero censorship, I don’t think Lemmy is for you. I don’t think the fediverse is for you. But if you disagree, then run your own instance and put it on an onion address, please stop trying to rant at us for not sharing your views.
I asked if you actually thought I might be subservient to you, or you were willingly making a pointless suggestion to be annoying.
Are you afk, or is that question too hard-hitting and uncomfortable for you to answer?
You waited two hours before demanding a reply? Wow. Funnily enough I don’t live at the keyboard and was away doing interesting real world stuff.
Your other question wasn’t relevant to the subject in my view, so although I wasn’t ignoring you, I will now.
Please stop wasting my time with replies unless you can explain the intentions/motives behind your words
Sure, you can say “well, zero censorship except bots” - well that’s censorship, isn’t it? And given no anti-bot tactic is reliable, you’ll be blocking humans.
Yes, but not on purpose - and if done correctly, not in any way that allows systemic censorship of people for their whole lives (which most of us live through today).
Or you can say, “zero censorship except CSAM, or extreme pornography, or anti-terrorist” and you’re either applying societal laws or your own morality on others.
Right, don’t do that unless you’re just making educational cartoons for very young children or something (definitely not hosting a space for political discussion)
You can’t use “no censor” and “except” in a sentence without contradiction.
I definitely can.
If you want zero censorship, I don’t think Lemmy is for you. I don’t think the fediverse is for you.
Didn’t ask.
But if you disagree, then run your own instance and put it on an onion address, please stop trying to rant at us for not sharing your views.
Do you actually think I might be subservient to you, or are you willingly making a pointless suggestion to be annoying?
My problem with reddit was not censorship, and I can’t think of why I would want to visit a forum with absolutely no censorship. I want “right” or “good” censorship or however that ends up relating to my values. Lemmy was not designed to address your problems with censorship, but it definitely addresses some problems of censorship.
Same here. I joined lemmy for privacy, the federation that allows smaller communities with very specific interests and moderation and an escape from the capitalist reddit that doesn’t care about it’s users at all.
Why are you wasting my time like I want replies from liars?
“Right” or “good” censorship, as you call it, is censoring bots from political discussion, or censoring pedophiles from a kids’ TV channel, not censoring humans from political discussion.
You’re free to read and respond to any comments you want, you’re the only one who can waste your time.
Talk about blaming others. Interesting person.
Yes, it is interesting that people who discuss things in good faith blame bad faith discussion (and the time wasted therein) on those who choose it.
Incorrect.
Willingly baiting someone to read nonsense in bad faith makes you responsible for wasting their time. You don’t get to blame the victim for being willing to engage in good faith.
Bad faith is bad, good faith isn’t, that’s why they’re called that.
How did the person “bait” you? How is it nonsense? How does the responsibility, how you spend your time, shift to someone else? How are you a victim? How are you arguing in good faith?
So much to unpack.
How did the person “bait” you?
Why do you ask? Is the context deleted now? I don’t feel like scrolling up to check
How does the responsibility, how you spend your time, shift to someone else?
What do you mean? Why would one person’s responsibility shift to someone else? Is that even a thing?
How are you a victim?
Are you asking me to consult a dictionary for you, or asking me to repeat what I said above?
How are you arguing in good faith?
Again, can’t tell what you’re asking here other than “help me use a dictionary”
So much to unpack.
You could get better at doing gish gallops but luckily I’m pretty good at handling them
Edit - I checked and the context was not deleted, so the “how” at the beginning is another weird question
Hahahahahahahahaha what the fuck. I did not bother reading past your first section. Why should I? Waste someone else’s time.
You asked questions, I answered them.
“Waste someone else’s time,” but unironically. I hope you won’t waste mine anymore.
I absolutely think nazis should be censored from political discourse in communities I am involved in.
Didn’t ask, but why did you tell me?
So you seem to think that should never happen?
So was there a reason you told me? I asked this above but you still didn’t answer it
That question baits me to say something I could get banned for here. If your goal is actually to learn something and not just get me banned, try asking me on nostr.
I don’t think you would get banned for saying you don’t believe nazis should be banned.
That’s not what you asked, and it’s much easier to answer, but it can only be answered with a question: banned from what?
They should be banned from eating food non-Nazis need at the same time, but not banned from political discussion.
deleted by creator
Personally I use other platforms for uncensored discussions.
Unfortunately they’re filled with insufferable twats like yourself, but that’s the price we pay for free speech.
It’s obvious for everybody except for you, that Lemmy isn’t intended as a free speech platform, but a means to form your own community based on shared interests and values. That inherently comes with some amount of censorship at the discretion of instance operators. I’m a free speech advocate, but I value and respect individuals’ right to maintain their property (Lemmy instance) as they see fit.
If you want free speech, hop on Simplex where you can yell racial slurs until you’ve satisfied yourself.
Or spin up your own lemmy instance. I’d be happy to join and engage in some debates.
Personally I use other platforms for uncensored discussions.
No you don’t. We use other platforms for less censored discussions. Maybe you use nostr like me but that doesn’t mean either of us has overcome this era of censorship.
Unfortunately they’re filled with insufferable twats like yourself, but that’s the price we pay for free speech.
Yep.
It’s obvious for everybody except for you, that Lemmy isn’t intended as a free speech platform, but a means to form your own community based on shared interests and values.
This is self-contradictory. Which is it?
Not intended for free speech?
Or indeed intended for free speech (freedom to form your own community (discussion space) based on shared interests and values)?
If you want free speech, hop on Simplex where you can yell racial slurs until you’ve satisfied yourself.
Simplex isn’t what I use for free speech, nostr is, and my slurs are generally not racial.
How would you even use Simplex for more free speech? Does it have group chats or something? (I don’t actually care, I’m just mildly confused)
Or spin up your own lemmy instance. I’d be happy to join and engage in some debates.
I will not be spinning up instances of anything. I will seed hashes in bittorrent-like P2P networks, I will put my posts where they fit, I will look for posts from others in the most anti-censorship ways I can find, and I will hope devs and server admins create a version of Lemmy that’s fitting for more of my posts - while hurrying toward a possible future where Tor isn’t enough to make Lemmy relevant anymore, because P2P networks become the only place worth posting anything.
This is self-contradictory. Which is it?
It’s not self-contradictory. Any user created community will have rules designed to keep on-topic. Whether or not its a music community, video game community, national community, pottery community. “Free speech zones” so to speak are contradictory to those goals.
It is self-contradictory.
Reddit has the authority to hijack a subreddit and change the mods and the rules, or just ban it. Reddit staff take that authority, and reddit users grant it.
If you want Lemmy to improve on that, which I also want, that area of improvement is what we call a form of “free speech.”
You cannot accurately say Lemmy should offer this improvement over reddit, but it is not related to free speech. That is just incorrect.
Reddit has the authority to hijack a subreddit and change the mods and the rules, or just ban it. Reddit staff take that authority, and reddit users grant it.
Yes. So do lemmy instances.This is because community moderators don’t actually own any part of the instance they operate on. How is it you imagine Reddit users can somehow not grant it?
But ignoring that, any user-made community has specific topics and themes in mind for what it wants to focus on. This necessarily requires focusing on those things to the explicit censorship of other topics.
How is it you imagine Reddit users can somehow not grant it?
By coding a decentralized P2P reddit and moving there, I guess.
Or just a tor version of Lemmy could be good.
But ignoring that, any user-made community has specific topics and themes in mind for what it wants to focus on. This necessarily requires focusing on those things to the explicit censorship of other topics.
Right, and you can’t pick those other topics for your community, because federation is broken.
I wanted to start blocking the most high-censorship instances until I could find a fully zero-censorship instance and simply block all the ones with censorship. […] I found out there are no zero-censorship instances
Unless you’re using a zero-censorship instance it likely will block zero-censorship instances. So it’s not a surprise you couldn’t find one.
Lemmy relies on a broken “federation” system where each instance is supposed to be able to fetch posts from other instances, but it’s never been finished to reach a fully working state.
You need to define “fully working state”.
Lemmy’s official docs say you can’t even do federation over Tor at all. This means it uses DNS
Not necessarily. It could be possible to use standard IP addresses directly instead of domain names. In fact odds are good that would work already.
So you can only ever have the “average joe lemmy” and “average joe reddit” with everything approved by the authorities, and then “tor copies of lemmy” and “tor copies of reddit” where you have free speech but you can only reach other nerds.
That’s overly simplistic. Under a substantially sensorial authority the “average joe” would out of necessity, become such a nerd.
People seem to think Lemmy is different because this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people. But it’s the exact same thing, it’s reddit.
It’s not Reddit. The difference is, democratic censorship vs corporate censorship. Reddit users have no real power over what gets censored or not. On Lemmy they do. If your instance censors something you want to see, there’s little friction in moving to another one.
That’s a big difference.
Unless you think people are owed reach and exposure to a broad platform. In that case yes all censorship is suppressing your right to be heard by everyone in the world.To be clear you don’t have that right.
It’s not actually a solution to reddit. It’s not designed to be different
Censorship isn’t the only way to differentiate from Reddit. Lemmy is also different in countless other ways; Algorithms and advertising to begin with. It’s myopic and supremely egotistical to think your one idea is the only difference that matters.
You need to define “fully working state”.
Since the context was a tool designed to improve reddit’s model by giving clones the ability to “federate” with each other, I guess a “fully working state” would be one where improvement from the reddit model cannot be furthered by adding more ability for clones to “federate” with each other.
Not necessarily. It could be possible to use standard IP addresses directly instead of domain names. In fact odds are good that would work already.
Is this a gish gallop, or do you think IP addresses are like Onion addresses instead of DNS?
That’s overly simplistic. Under a substantially sensorial authority the “average joe” would out of necessity, become such a nerd.
That’s what I’m hoping, yes. There’s also the risk that the planet is just going extinct instead. You can’t just wish for the best and take it for granted. Freedom isn’t free.
It’s not Reddit. The difference is, democratic censorship vs corporate censorship. Reddit users have no real power over what gets censored or not. On Lemmy they do. If your instance censors something you want to see, there’s little friction in moving to another one.
If Lemmy users aren’t using Tor, then they aren’t coordinating to take any authority away from the corporations.
I don’t know how many times you people are going to make me repeat this.
First you were on a small corner of reddit, which was a small corner of the internet, which was a small corner of the screens.
Then the internet got bigger, and reddit got bigger, and now Lemmy is that size corner.
Then Lemmy will either stay this size, or fragment again when it gets bigger.
Without Tor, there’s zero difference.
That’s a big difference.
Nope.
Unless you think people are owed reach and exposure to a broad platform. In that case yes all censorship is suppressing your right to be heard by everyone in the world.
To be clear you don’t have that right.
Again, not making sense, just trying to reframe things in a way where you can insult me.
Censorship isn’t the only way to differentiate from Reddit. Lemmy is also different in countless other ways; Algorithms and advertising to begin with. It’s myopic and supremely egotistical to think your one idea is the only difference that matters.
Incorrect. I’m not the one being egotistical and, depending what “myopic” means, probably not that either. I am focusing on what matters, you are not.
That’s not what a Gish Gallop is.
A rhetorical technique in which a dishonest speaker lists a string of falsehoods or misleading items so that their opponent will be unable to counter each one and still be able to make their own counterpoints.
Myopic
Definition 3: Narrow-mindedAlso you aren’t really connecting the dots well as to how Lemmy can be censored by corporate authorities, or what specifically those are. Explaining those may help your case. Size also, it’s not clear how that really matters to censorship.
That’s not what a Gish Gallop is.
A rhetorical technique in which a dishonest speaker lists a string of falsehoods or misleading items so that their opponent will be unable to counter each one and still be able to make their own counterpoints.
Not clicking your link, but what you quoted here is what a Gish Gallop is, and what the reply I was replying to is (hence why I brought it up)
What’s not? Like, what were you referring to?
Myopic
Definition 3: Narrow-minded
So, like “egotistical,” I’m not the one being myopic
Also you aren’t really connecting the dots well as to how Lemmy can be censored by corporate authorities, or what specifically those are. Explaining those may help your case.
What dots have I not connected?
These posts have a small audience. I’ve said that.
In the past, this small audience was on reddit. I’ve said that.
This audience isn’t much bigger than it was on reddit. There’s no fundamental difference in how censored you are right now, with Lemmy vs reddit. The authorities have successfully kept your audience about as small as they were successfully able to keep it on reddit. I’ve said that.
In the future, if Lemmy tries to grow this audience using its current design, it can’t really get far past where it was on reddit without the authorities fucking it up by blocking IP addresses and domain names. I’ve said that.
I don’t know what new thing to say to “connect the dots,” you’re just making me repeat myself.
Edit - no reply, 2 downvotes. Community full of mentally ill bullies who waste time with bullshit, and then run out of bullshit to say and just stop replying, without admitting they were wrong in any way.
This audience isn’t much bigger than it was on reddit. There’s no fundamental difference in how censored you are right now, with Lemmy vs reddit. The authorities have successfully kept your audience about as small as they were successfully able to keep it on reddit. I’ve said that.
Who are “the authorities” here? The owners of instances? It’s not clear what you’re referring to.
In the future, if Lemmy tries to grow this audience using its current design, it can’t really get far past where it was on reddit without the authorities fucking it up by blocking IP addresses and domain names. I’ve said that.
Why would “the authorities” (whatever that means) block IP addresses and domain names in the event of potential Lemmy growth?
Who are “the authorities” here? The owners of instances? It’s not clear what you’re referring to.
Why are you asking again and acting like it isn’t clear when I’ve answered this question in very clear wording multiple different ways for you already?
Why would “the authorities” (whatever that means) block IP addresses and domain names in the event of potential Lemmy growth?
Same reason they created FCC licenses, same reason they started taking subreddits away from reddit mods by force, etc.
War criminals would find it difficult to keep being granted authority by The People without seeding mental illness and shifting the “overton window” as far as possible from realism
Why are you asking again and acting like it isn’t clear when I’ve answered this question in very clear wording multiple different ways for you already?
You use the word “authorities” in such a vague and bizarre way that it’s like someone just saying “the man!” The “authorities” here seem to be the active userbase, so far as I can tell, and community moderators and instance admins - most of whom all desire a moderated experience as most people on here, as I’ve said, don’t want to use a forum with no rules.
Same reason they created FCC licenses, same reason they started taking subreddits away from reddit mods by force, etc.
Reddit has always been able and willing to take away subreddits from moderators, and has done so since its inception. That doesn’t really have anything with domain names and IP blocking.
Not sure what FCC licences would have to do with anything here. What specific “authority” would even be blocking IP addresses and domain names from Lemmy?
You use the word “authorities” in such a vague and bizarre way that it’s like someone just saying “the man!”
Incorrect on being vague / bizarre, but some people do use “the man” as a synonym
The “authorities” here seem to be the active userbase, so far as I can tell, and community moderators and instance admins - most of whom all desire a moderated experience as most people on here, as I’ve said, don’t want to use a forum with no rules.
You left a lot out but did you have a point here?
Reddit has always been able and willing to take away subreddits from moderators, and has done so since its inception.
Incorrect. They were always able, but not willing and didn’t do it until years in. I think not even until after Aaron Swartz was out of the way.
Why do you keep lying? Is it just that you’re a deeply dishonest person? Again, it’s pretty much just us here, unless lying to me about reddit is supposed to somehow bait admins/mods into censoring me
Not sure what FCC licences would have to do with anything here.
Why are you complaining to me about your own inability to understand basic English yet again?
What specific “authority” would even be blocking IP addresses and domain names from Lemmy?
Why are you yet again repeating questions I’ve directly given you and others in this thread answers to multiple times?
Mods please censor this guy
Removed by mod
I think/hope it was a joke.
But none that I’d like or find healthy, to be honest.
Just host your own fucking instance then nerd
No thanks.
Server admins can host their own instances when Tor support is added, though.
I.d.k. if you’ve heard of reclaim the net, you may be interested to give them a follow, and if you know similar websites/accounts i’m interested, thanks for the thread !
(thanks as well to the moderators for allowing you to speak freely, this should be a basic freedom)Here’s one more example of censorship i’ve just learned about : I’ve already been permanently demonetized by YouTube and had albums removed from Spotify, this time under a false allegation of transphobia. Felt pertinent to add somewhere.
I hope in the near future you’ll find more of a paying audience than YouTube or Spotify have ever offered you
Nah, i’m stupid sorry, it was a quote from a post by David Rovics, i should have put the «…», my bad.
He’s the only anti-imperialist singer i know, along with Red Creators Network, worth checking out i think :)Got it, will do 🙏
What do you mean by “censorship” and what is your example of the “high-censorship instance” doing it?
This started with me blocking lemmy.world because I heard they defederate “tankie” instances
Better get ready to block sh.itjust.works then too because it also defederates those same instances.
Right. If you read my original post, one of the first things I mentioned was how I looked for a a fully zero-censorship instance/cluster to transition into. Why do you keep needing things repeated?
So why block lemmy.world and not sh.itjust.works when it’s also guilty here?
I don’t know. Is there some reason to do that? My idea seems to make more sense to me.
Or did you mean temporarily, like, why should lemmy.world be first?
You said the reason you blocked lemmy.world was because it blocked the “tankie instances”. Guess what? Sh.itjust.works is exactly the same.
Or did you mean temporarily, like, why should lemmy.world be first?
No, I mean why aren’t you just blocking every instance that blocks those instances.
You said the reason you blocked lemmy.world was because it blocked the “tankie instances”. Guess what? Sh.itjust.works is exactly the same.
Didn’t ask. Why are you wasting time rephrasing this repeatedly?
No, I mean why aren’t you just blocking every instance that blocks those instances.
I can’t answer for whatever proverbial “you” you’re referring to, and it seems like you’re still trying to pretend you can’t remember anything I’ve said, since I’ve been clear the whole time (starting from my original post) that proverbial “you” isn’t me, as you seem to imply it is here.
So you want to censor 99% of speech, leaving only people who agree with you on only hearing speech from people that post in your mkni community? I feel like that’s counter-productive.
Sometimes people say Lemmy.ml is “high censorship,” but I’ve never been censored here. People sort themselves into instances that generally align with what they want to post and comment, it isn’t that there are censorship regimes going on.
As for Lemmy “failing,” it already does what it needs to do, it provides a good platform. Reddit went downhill because of the profit motive, Lemmy doesn’t have that.
Sometimes people say Lemmy.ml is “high censorship,” but I’ve never been censored here.
It’s almost like that was the beginning of a bigger point:
Sometimes people say Lemmy.ml is “high censorship,” but I’ve never been censored here. People sort themselves into instances that generally align with what they want to post and comment, it isn’t that there are censorship regimes going on.
What I say isn’t censored, so OP’s idea that people are controlling their speech on instances that take a more active stance to moderation and therefore aren’t worthy of federation is built on a false premise.
What I say isn’t censored
What you say aligns with what’s considered acceptable viewpoints on that instance. Take those views to another instance that aligns with different views and you’ll be censored, just like someone expressing dissenting views on lemmy.ml will be. I’m not sure I understand what point you’re trying to make here.
What you just said is my point, minus the part where I said users sort themselves into instances already so that they don’t get censored from what they want to say. OP’s claiming that people control their speech on their own instances, therefore justifying OP defederating from this “controlled speech,” but my speech and presumably your speech isn’t controlled on our respective instances because they presumably align roughly with what we already want to say.
I’m well aware that Lemmy.ml removes comments and posts bashing communism, or that have bigotry in them, etc. Lemmy.world removes comments critical of the DNC, and has some Zionist mods. Users naturally sort themselves into whichever one won’t censor what they want to say to begin with, we aren’t all forced under one banner like Reddit, because of federation.
Make sense?
Maybe my lack of understanding stems from a misunderstanding of OP’s post… which to be fair, I found fairly difficult to parse, and based on their responses to your and other posters’ replies, I strongly suspect that’s a ‘them’ problem, not a ‘me’ problem, as it seems everyone else is having an equally hard time understanding what they’re actually trying to say.
I just want to be clear that it is a lack of understanding and not an attempt to be antagonistic. I have no inherent problem with you; we have strongly differing views on a number of important topics, but we seem to be able to co-exist on Lemmy (and even post in the same communities) just fine, which… seems to be a counter-point to OP’s post? But maybe I’m just still misinterpreting what that point actually is.
That’s fair! Yea, from how I have interacted with OP, it seems they want Lemmy to overtake Reddit in numbers, have no moderation outside of CSAM or something, and have TOR integration so governments can’t censor it, and that they believe this is the key to achieving socialism (I think?). I think this person just has very specific desires and sees it as a problem for everyone that they aren’t met.
No, the OP thinks that even CSAM should not be moderated. Click here.
You can call wanting to avoid planetary extinction a “very specific desire” but it’s very weird to pretend it being unmet wouldn’t be a problem for everyone.
Are you one of those science denialists who pretends climate change isn’t manmade, or will be solved by corporations before the 100 more years it would supposedly take to become a problem, or something?
I strongly suspect that’s a ‘them’ problem, not a ‘me’ problem, as it seems everyone else is having an equally hard time understanding what they’re actually trying to say.
No, it’s that you’re in a community full of mostly people like you, including the same issues.
I’m speaking coherently. I even rephrased my original point in my main post to where I thought I was making it too long, for the sake of making sure people could understand. People are basically just too upset about the part where I called out their censorship fetish, and not mentally able to think straight about something upsetting.
If you’re really undecided about whether it’s me or everyone else, keep re-reading or asking more questions until you understand what went wrong in your own first reading. That should really help you understand more of the world in general.
No. It’s seriously like you people can’t read. I thought I was repeating my point too many times in the original post, but apparently I didn’t rephrase it enough different ways for anyone to understand.
The issue is not that Lemmy could do something similar to reddit in the future.
The issue is that Lemmy is the exact same thing as reddit, having the exact same failures at each stage of growth.
Currently, we are at the stage where the stuff you post on Lemmy is censored from reddit, and you reach a certain percentage of Americans via Lemmy.
In the past, we were at the stage where this stuff was censored from Fox News, and we reached a certain percentage of Americans via reddit.
In the future, without Tor federation, you can reach a stage where stuff is censored from big Lemmy, and you reach a certain percentage of Americans via small Lemmy.
Many of you think of this place as different in ways that it is not. The ambulance rides still cost money.
People are controlling my speech on instances that take a more active stance to moderation, and therefore aren’t worthy of federation.
That isn’t very well-written wording, but I can’t spot the lie.
What false premise do you think it’s based on? Apparently, that you’re censored - but I didn’t say you’re censored, if you’re fine with ambulance rides charging money, so where’s that false premise actually appear in my train of thought or connect to the statement you’re trying to connect it to? I said censorship exists, and I implied it applies to people who want ambulance rides to be free - I didn’t say anything about you personally.
If you think ambulance rides should cost money, that’s a false premise, but it doesn’t change anything I said - the idea that it does would be a second false premise.
Is it that you think ambulance rides shouldn’t cost money, but political discussion doesn’t impact policy? Because it does, so that would still be you with the false premise.
Is that you’re aware of both why ambulance rides should be free and how political discourse impacts that, but you’re not understanding how you need a majority to win elections? Because you do, so that would still be you with the false premise.
Do you understand all that, but think Tor users are a majority? Because they’re not, so that would still be you with the false premise.
I can’t see how you get from me saying “there is censorship” to “Cowbee isn’t censored and there is no censorship” without using a false premise. Meanwhile “there is censorship” remains a true premise.
People here mostly don’t want to interact in a 4-chan esque ‘muh free speech’ zone. The policy of most used instances that federate out reflects that.
Never said anything about 4chan. You are yet another person making me copy and paste from my original post, like none of you can read:
this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people. But it’s the exact same thing, it’s reddit.
When reddit was smaller, you could say basically anything you wanted there, they just wouldn’t let it reach the main audience. Then it got too big, and any tiny part of the audience you could reach would be too big, so they won’t let you talk at all.
Lemmy is now the small part of reddit where you can say whatever you want, separated from the main audience, until too much growth happens and you have to move again.
4chan is just the end state of what happens when a community has no moderation. I didn’t literally mean 4chan.
4chan has moderation, no voting, and censorship of humans.
Bot spam is what happens to a community with no moderation.
A community with moderation, voting, and no banning humans is not anything like 4chan.
Your point was about people censoring their own speech, ie Pawb.social posters can’t say certain things, Lemmy.ml users can’t say certain things, etc. That may be true, but Lemmy is federated and accounts are free, I use Lemmy.ml because I won’t be censored for being a communist and they presumably use Pawb.social because they have interest in doing so.
You don’t gave to comment on other instances, you can spin your own, but defederating from others makes no sense. You can let others visit and just not remove their comments. By blocking, say, Hexbear, like you already do with a sh.itjust.works account, you are limiting the number of communists you interact with already.
You’re ignoring so many of my words. Is that in good faith? Are you in a big hurry but still considering this important enough to try to engage in a rushed way? Or are you just willingly refusing to understand something simple?
When reddit was smaller, you could say basically anything you wanted there, they just wouldn’t let it reach the main audience. Then it got too big, and any tiny part of the audience you could reach would be too big, so they won’t let you talk at all.
Lemmy is now the small part of reddit where you can say whatever you want, separated from the main audience, until too much growth happens and you have to move again.
It’s not actually a solution to reddit. It’s not designed to be different, it’s designed to match the past today and then match reddit’s present tomorrow, while being part of a system that’s about the same in past, present, and future.
Last year, this year, and next year, you’re posting somewhere it won’t be seen by many people
Instances don’t censor based on size, but based on stances. slrpnk.net is biased against Marxism-Leninism, but is a very small instance. Growth won’t increase censorship, because we aren’t appealing to advertisers. It’s a false premise.
Secondly, I’m not a free-speech absolutist. Misinformation and bigotry should be removed, especially in the modern age where massive propaganda networks push narratives.
Instances are and will continue to be censored based on size, just like subreddits.
This is incredibly obvious, enough to prevent any major effort towards even trying to make mainstream zero-censorship instances so far.
I don’t get how you don’t get this.
You start a zero-censorship instance on DNS, it gets blocked immediately.
You start it on Tor, docs say it can’t federate with other instances.
When current levels of censorship get too many users, they can be blocked too, like how they’re currently blocked from reddit, keeping the spread of ideas controlled by the authorities, the same way it was when we were all on reddit.
What fundamental change do you see here that justifies saying the opposite?
My train of thought today started from people on lemmy.world talking about defederating lemmy.ml for being “tankies” which lead to me blocking lemmy.world - then I ended up here because the Lemmy community here seems to be the main one anywhere for discussing Lemmy
If you want an instance that doesn’t defederate from any other instance, you’re going to be left with very few options, and those are going to be the ones hosting some incredibly, incredibly questionable content.
There are 2 options:
-
Don’t defederate from any other instance, but keep a list of censored instances and an easy way for users to block that full list
-
Just make the list of defederated instances the list of censored instances
Anything else is useless
Anything designed by people who think “questionable” is a bad trait and “censored” is a good trait, is useless for others
Sounds like the solution is for you to just start your own instance, create your own ‘free speech zone’ communities, and engage in a ‘censorship-free’ policy there. Personally, I prefer to stay as far away from instances hosting, for example, CSAM and unbridled hate-speech as I can, and the current federation system handles that quite well.
Again, can’t.
That’s the whole point of my original post. Don’t know how many times I have to repeat it. Lemmy uses DNS / IP addresses, stops Tor from being used, can’t have free speech instances under this configuration. Might need new code, not just new instance
Do you consider taking down CSAM as censorship?
-
If 99% of speech comes from people who are against free speech, I want to let 99% of people censor themselves by posting in censored communities while I stay in a free speech zone.
You can phrase that as me wanting to “censor them from my own feed” as long as you recognize the caveat that, unlike them, I give them the option to deactivate my censorship of them any time, all they have to do is deactivate their censorship of me.
Was it in good faith that you just made me explain this, or were you only pretending not to understand me?
But I can say whatever I would want to say here, I’m not censoring myself. People sort themselves into places where they can already say whatever they would want to. I understand your point, I just don’t think it’s actually an issue because people post on instances where they can say what they want already.
If Lemmy doesn’t allow federation over Tor, you are potentially helping censor both of us by posting here, unless your posts aren’t made with goals like making ambulance rides free, in which case you’re just helping censor me & other honest people, not yourself (who might be fine with “only reaching nerds” when posting here).
That may become a problem down the line, but it doesn’t seem to be one yet.
I explained exactly how it is a yesterday, today, and tomorrow problem, not a waiting-to-come-tomorrow problem.
Last year, this year, and next year, you’re posting somewhere it won’t be seen by many people, and the system that charges people for ambulance rides is getting another year of ambulance ride revenue, facing no organized resistance. There’s no difference here.
Is it in good faith that you make me copy and paste myself?
I can agree that TOR functionality would be useful, I can’t agree that it’s necessary at the present moment.
deleted by creator
Then where is a zero-censorship instance for me to use?
If 99% of speech comes from people who are against free speech, I want to let 99% of people censor themselves by posting in censored communities while I stay in a free speech zone.~
There are some instances that could be described as ‘free speech zones’. It’s just they’re usually heavily defederated and so you’ll have to find them.
Replying, here as it’s a bit higher (I’ve been down quite a few subthreads): don’t feed the troll.
“heavily defederated” - again, my core point in this whole thread has been that according to Lemmy’s docs, they can’t federate.
You mean over TOR, according to your OP
How else would they do it?
Currently federation works now. You just don’t like how it works, and you’re paranoid that the authorities will intervene and dictate to Lemmy instances what they should do.
It doesn’t work for what many people wish it would do (and pretend it does), which is to create a decentralized discussion space controlled by the people and not restricted by the authorities
