Basically, the huge-personal-truck model doesn’t work so well with batteries. Making them cheap enough means making them small…which Ford didn’t try to do
Ford should roll back truck plans, not EV plans.
most truck drivers don’t fucking need a truck, and might be just as happy with smaller vehicles if Ford hadn’t stopped fucking building them.
Focus and Fiesta were great cars, especially in hatch/wagon form. Should be good enough for most people.
make rangers compact again
Ford should roll back truck plans, not EV plans.
Then they will go broke, the F150 is one of the world’s best selling vehicles and the only reason why Ford isn’t bankrupt.
Focus and Fiesta were great cars
Bullshit, they were awful, because of cheaply designed automatic transmissions that failed repeatedly and Ford kept selling them for 7 years. Even in the sport Focus, they had major engine failures due to poor head gasket design. Focus and Fiesta were top sellers worldwide, but Ford so badly fucked their customers they got out of the car business, now only making the Mustang Boomermobile.
they were awful, because of cheaply designed automatic transmissions that failed repeatedly
ah I wasn’t aware of that, the Fiesta ST we had was a manual so we didn’t have much reason to know about that issue.
I’ve still yet to find anyone who is able to post any data except a 2018 axios hit piece about trucks not being used properly or being happy with the use case.
So for the thousandths time on Reddit/Lemmy, what data are you using to form that opinion?
How about you provide evidence for how something which burns through far more finite resources than necessary is somehow better for society?
On top of having far worse visibility, taking up too much space on roads and parking lots, and being responsible for more pedestrian deaths than smaller, more reasonably proportioned vehicles?
Look at you, going off on a tangent.
So to be clear, you do not have the data to back up the opinion, right?
you do not have the data to back up the opinion,
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022437522000810
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/14/1212737005/cars-trucks-pedestrian-deaths-increase-crash-data
The announcement amounted to an admission by Ford that it had overestimated demand for battery-powered vehicles and underestimated the staying power of vehicles powered by gasoline and diesel. Other big automakers, including General Motors and Stellantis, have also recently changed their plans and placed a far greater emphasis on combustion engine vehicles and hybrids.
The U.S. auto industry’s move away from electric vehicles is also a result of a reversal in government policies since President Trump took office in January. His administration has slashed government incentives for electric vehicles while promoting fossil fuels. This month, the administration announced plans to significantly weaken fuel economy standards, which would reduce automakers’ incentive to make electric cars.
This is the nut of it.
We had a public incentive to shit our method of engine manufacture to all electric and now we don’t.
The federal government is artificially subsidizing fossil fuel production and consumption, while penalizing wind and solar as well as lithium battery production.
But don’t be too worried folks. At the end of the day, we’re gutting the consumer economy with stagflation anyway.
Degrowth, baby! That’s Trump’s future.
Ford is partnering with Renault to make EVs in Europe.
I don’t blame them for bailing on EVs in USA, between Trump’s undoing of a decade of progress and his effect on the economy, you would be insane to care about the US auto market.
The US is where the plurality of cars are bought and sold. You can’t just ignore it, especially if you’re one of the Big Three domestic automakers.
What Ford’s running into is a soft cap on the volume of debt Americans are able to assume in order to buy their bloated flatbed trucks and SUVs. It’s 2008 all over again.
Byd are already buying up the ford dealerships here, guess they’re happy with that carrying on.
LFP batteries are cheaper. Makes me wonder if they could increase their profit margins and lower the prices by simply switching existing vehicles to LFP. Trying to remember how many EVs ford makes — two? Mustang SUV and EV Truck is all I can remember.
No one is shipping small cars in the US except one mini and one VW. Ford doesn’t even ship sedans anymore. This is really going to bite them when they realize we’re in stagflation and no one can afford expensive cars or expensive gas anymore. Does Ford even have a small car in another market they could bring here? Or will they be forced to slap their badge on someone else’s product?
Edit: Just read they are revising it to add a gas generator. Thats neither cheaper, nor is it going to sell any better.
The main reason why people avoided the lightning was poor range while towing.
The European Ford EVs will be rebadged Renaults.
No one is shipping small cars in the US except one mini and one VW
Not true, Stellantis will be selling this awesome EV in 2026 from FIAT. Hilarious. Bullshit compliance car to prove Americans won’t buy EVs.
Fiat has stopped selling Fiats in most of the US at this point. It’s sad and pathetic.
LFP are still heavier for the same energy.
A small engine would replace most of the batteries in a plug-in hybrid. Complexity makes initial cost a wash, and will be much lighter.
Especially for customers looking to haul or tow, this could be a good thing if done right.
A small engine would replace most of the batteries in a plug-in hybrid.
This would result in the battery being fully charged and fully depleted on a regular basis. Which is what causes batteries to degrade overtime.
Hybrid batteries don’t last very long for this reason. So they increase the amount the owner spends on batteries in addition to the gas drivetrain maintenance and common failures.
Hybrids have all the negatives of gas and electric without the positives.
Hybrid batteries don’t last very long for this reason. So they increase the amount the owner spends on batteries in addition to the gas drivetrain maintenance and common failures.
Hybrids have all the negatives of gas and electric without the positives.
Maybe if you parrot this enough, it will come true. Hybrids use 40% petrol of gas versions, and cab companies get >300,000 miles from hybrids. No range issues and Toyota hybrids are the most reliable vehicles in the last 30 years. My hybrid battery has a 10 year warranty -try getting that from a Xiaofeng Sea Eel.
Hybrids have two drivetrains you have to pay for. That is a fact. Nothing you can say will change that.
Those taxis could last to 999,999 miles if they kept dumping money into them. Because that is all that determines how long a car stays on the road.
Gas drivetrains have spark plugs, ignition coils, distributors, valve cover gaskets, air filters, fuel filters, timing belts, water pumps, accessory belts, oil, oil filters, coolant, crankshaft seals, rear main seals, oil pan gaskets, transmission pan gaskets, transmission filters, transmission fluid, differential fluid, power steering fluid, and on and on and on and that’s just the maintenance.
EVs have none of that and like you mentioned the brakes last way longer than on gas engines.
So why would anyone waste money on a hybrid when they can get an EV?
You are obviously shilling the way you are campaigning for hybrids.
Hybrid batteries don’t last very long for this reason.
Uhh…they last at least a decade, which is also why for the longest time they had a 10-year powertrain warranty (as required by law to help the transition.) Battery management software on hybrids keep the battery cycling between roughly 40% and 80% until they age out and the bands have to increase. On plug-in hybrids it is managed a bit more complex, with a pocket of energy saved for the plug-in charging/driving. Same principle though.
Also, since the engine in a hybrid does not have to run a full duty-cycle, nor run at high RPM/power levels as frequently as an ICE-only vehicle, the engine also has a longer more gentle life. No need for turbo or supercharger, and the electric motors don’t care about altitude, so no power fade when climbing mountains.
Subarus need their headgaskets changed more frequently than a good hybrid would need batteries.
Someone’s been reading “I’m scared of the future” myth web sites.
Uhh…they last at least a decade, which is also why for the longest time they had a 10-year powertrain warranty (as required by law to help the transition.)
The federal law was 8 years not 10 and that did not include what they call “normal wear and tear” from the battery fully charging and depleting. So the batteries still degrade in less than 8 years and are not covered by the warranty.
Battery management software on hybrids keep the battery cycling between roughly 40% and 80% until they age out and the bands have to increase. On plug-in hybrids it is managed a bit more complex, with a pocket of energy saved for the plug-in charging/driving. Same principle though.
Some manufacturers use their software to prevent the battery from fully charging and discharging but it is not required or used by all manufacturers. When it is used it effectively limits your battery capacity in the same way a degraded battery is limited. So it is the same result.
Also, since the engine in a hybrid does not have to run a full duty-cycle, nor run at high RPM/power levels as frequently as an ICE-only vehicle, the engine also has a longer more gentle life.
Engines experience the most wear and tear on start up because until the engine is turning, the oil isn’t pumping so on start up the internal parts of the engine are lubricated the least. So hybrids maximize the wear and tear on gas engines.
Not to mention, what you’re describing is what has been known for decades as “city miles” as opposed to “highway miles”. The stop and go, starting and stopping maximizes the wear and tear on the engine and minimizes its lifespan.
Subarus need their headgaskets changed more frequently than a good hybrid would need batteries.
This is because Subarus use a unique engine design that no one else uses with head gaskets as a pattern failure.
Using it in a hybrid means you’re paying for the head gaskets and the hybrid systems failures.
Someone’s been reading “I’m scared of the future” myth web sites.
I’ve been a master mechanic for over 20 years now. I’m certified in hybrids and EVs and spent a lot of time working on used cars. That’s what I’m basing my comments on.
Like clockwork, hybrid vehicle owners sell their vehicles before the power train warranty is up because warranties don’t cover normal wear and tear.
Hybrids have two drive trains with twice the maintenance and part failures. Both drivetrains operate under the worst conditions (fully charge/deplete, start/stop) so when they start to break down it is twice as expensive.
dude… keep pulling stuff out of your ass. Everything in your post is wrong. Cab companies in every city use hybrids.
hybrid vehicle owners sell their vehicles before the power train warranty is up because warranties don’t cover normal wear and tear.
Because people like you bullshitting on your agenda.
Of course as a Master something, you would know brake systems on hybrids last 2X other vehicles, and the electric torque takes huge strain off transmissions and ICE motors. I’ve had hybrids for over 20 years with none of your issues. With fuel savings, free cars.
Of course as a Master something, you would know brake systems on hybrids last 2X other vehicles, and the electric torque takes huge strain off transmissions and ICE motors.
The brakes last longer because of the electric motor. The gas engine and transmission are unnecessary and more than double the cost of ownership. Hybrids are a waste of money. Get an EV and you won’t need to dump money into maintenance, repairs or gas.
The technology exists that address your concerns but it’s common practice to dump costs on consumers these days.
The federal law was 8 years not 10 and that did not include what they call “normal wear and tear” from the battery fully charging and depleting. So the batteries still degrade in less than 8 years and are not covered by the warranty.
Ooh, correct there on the 8 year mark, I was wrong! Until recently I’d not met a main stream hybrid without a 10-year powertrain warranty. Guess they were just going above and beyond.
That being said, I’ve also yet to meet a hybrid owner who’s battery didn’t make it a full 10 years or more. Those people do, I’m sure, exist, and the batteries do age out. A person I know had a (older than 10 year) cold-winter HV battery too low to start ICE scenario, but that will happen with any vehicle if any battery ages and is cold. (As hybrids use the HV battery to start the engine, not the 12v battery.) Anecdotes are only as good as the statistical input data, however.
Engines experience the most wear and tear on start up because until the engine is turning, the oil isn’t pumping so on start up the internal parts of the engine are lubricated the least. So hybrids maximize the wear and tear on gas engines.
Yes, but. Modern hybrids have electric oil pumps, and unlike traditional ICE engines that use a starter motor that engages the flywheel with a solenoid, they just gently spin the engine with power from one of the motor-generators (on Toyota-style prius/camry/etc the most common design). The engine can be gently spun up to speed and then spark applied. Much more gentle than traditional start-stop, even from those cars that have that annoying engine-stop-start feature. They also use very low-weight oil to reduce friction. They manage the engine heat to ensure everything stays at optimum temperatures. They can switch between the Atkinson cycle and Otto cycle as needed for both efficiency and heating. In very cold weather, for example, the engine will run more frequently to keep it warm (as well as the passengers.) And again, they never reach the load an ICE-only vehicle hits, except some edge-case scenarios like an hour-long mountain climb that depletes the HV battery and the engine has to rev higher to compensate.
Using it in a hybrid means you’re paying for the head gaskets and the hybrid systems failures.
Only on Subaru boxer WWII engines though, although they were probably a bad example, as there are many other ICE manufacturers that do not suffer their fate, ICE-only or hybrid. I suppose that means stay away from Subaru hybrids?
I’ve been a master mechanic for over 20 years now. I’m certified in hybrids and EVs and spent a lot of time working on used cars. That’s what I’m basing my comments on.
Hey, props to that real-world knowledge, as I said previous, I’m sure there are cases where that does happen. Maybe I live in a bubble of successfully-lived hybrids. The people I know also properly perform regular maintenance, so maybe that is an additional factor. I bet you’ve seen some horror stories.
Like clockwork, hybrid vehicle owners sell their vehicles before the power train warranty is up because warranties don’t cover normal wear and tear.
Vehicle owners are fickle in general, like new cars, and don’t like high repair bills or regular maintenance. Most never keep a car for 8 or 10 years. Either way that will always happen with any type of vehicle. For anyone worth their salt, a refurb battery can be purchased for much less than OEM new, and often the biggest issue is corrosion or some dead cells in a pack, both of which can be mitigated. There are also hybrid shops that can refurb the existing battery. All sorts of options. I get your point though, one is maintaining two systems, not one, and with all the falsely-inflated prices of vehicle parts since the pandemic, anything is expensive.
Hybrids have two drive trains with twice the maintenance and part failures. Both drivetrains operate under the worst conditions (fully charge/deplete, start/stop) so when they start to break down it is twice as expensive.
Hybrids (most) have one drivetrain that is shared across power sources/sinks. Battery is never fully depleted, nor fully charged, as mentioned previously. In fact, the battery can not ever be fully depleted, as it is the power source used to start the engine from a cold-start. (The little status indicators on the dashboard, if one enables them, do not even show the true state of charge, they just show a feel-good full/empty based on the current battery parameters.) Even stopping an engine on a hybrid is a much gentler affair than a pure ICE. The engine gently spins down and the power is absorbed into the hybrid system. Slightly rotated if necessary to make start easier, and then it sits and waits.
Other fun things, a friend with a 2004-2021 hybrid never had to replace their brake pads once, as the friction material never degraded enough due to regen braking. Brakes are cheap, of course, but a nice perk.
But don’t take my word for it:
https://www.electricbike.com/the-curious-case-of-the-600000-mile-hybrid-electric-taxi/
Ford said it remained committed to building a medium electric pickup in Kentucky that would cost around $30,000,
I’m skeptical, but they say they’re gonna do it. Curious if that will be ranger or maverick size.
It’s the electric Maverick.
I’m hoping like a first generation Ranger size. Like all trucks, even the Ranger got larger each generation.
Bribes and threats from the oil barons
The huge personal truck works well with fail videos, though.
It’s a stupid product. You get 75 miles of towing, the entire purpose of the truck.
PHEV trucks make a billion times more sense for most owners.
You get 75 miles of towing
in sunny flat Calfornia. In winter, half that or less in hilly areas.
Dont be so rigid in your perspective. First off, when you are towing anything big your range always gets cut in half, it just matters more for electric. Still, my next vehicle will be the electric 150. I have solar panels for free electricity, the truck can also work as a whole house backup power station. It can plow, it can tow well for most of what I need to do, I can commute to work on solar and my whole family fits in it. Its a great truck, its not for everyone but it most certainly has its place.
There are dozens of you.
It’s a shitty drivetrain for the f150. I’m glad it works for you.
Fellow lightning owner with solar here:
Yeah, the whole house battery plus vehicle is what made this decision. Bonus points that I don’t need to rewire the garage for tools and I don’t need to pay for delivery of sheet goods or landscaping stuff. I also just put 4 adults and an infant in the truck for a comfortable day trip. My meter is still net backwards after 6 months of charging exclusively at home.
I don’t need to pay for delivery of sheet goods or landscaping stuff.
Those place rent utility trucks and vans for $20, with proper suspension, instead, ruin your $70,000 fake work truck.
Also, a van can fit 4x8 sheets, while a pickup cannot without the tailgate down and various straps and flags. Or not, and lose the load on the highway as other geniuses do. And where I live, it rains, which doesn’t work well with drywall, assuming someone hasn’t stolen it first.
On actual worksites, no one uses there personal trucks, they use proper company vehicles.
Solar charging…hmmm… 100Kwhr battery would take 20 square metres of panels two days to charge, assuming no clouds, in july, very close to the equator.
I’m done with the nonsense in this thread.
That’s the nirvana fallacy in action. Yes there are tradeoffs. And I get that it isn’t for everyone. I also have a lot of privilege to make this a reasonable purchase financially.
The nearest non-uhaul day rental is a 90min round trip without traffic, which would be rare on a weekend or even weekday afternoon. So I was paying 80-150 for delivery, which really sucks when you realize you’re one sheet short on a project because you forgot to account for something. But it isn’t a super regular usecase.
And while I appreciate the concern for my suspension, I’m definitely not using this as a work truck. For sheet goods, I’m talking about a few sheets of plywood occasionally for personal cabinetry projects, not a house worth of drywall 4x a week. And I can run all my shop tools off the truck’s battery instead of loading up the one 15amp circuit in the garage and running 80feet of extension cords for more. For landscaping, it’s a yard of mulch or a few bags of soil amendment and fertilizer (my wife has a very green thumb and we live in clay country).
Regarding vans: if the id buzz could actually fit a sheet, I would probably have gone that route. But short of an Econoline or Sprinter (which afaik don’t come BEV), you definitely don’t have 8 feet of depth, and I can’t thing of a smaller van with 4ft between the wheels inside, so now you’re driving with the giant liftgate bouncing on your goods and you still need straps and a flag.
For charging yes, it’s silly to think I’m purely solar charging. But I have 26 410W panels and we’re at 400kwh this month so far (Winter solstice soon too). And the truck only has 2k miles on it in the 6 months I’ve had it, so yeah we’re definitely net negative on the meter.
For house battery: I valued the truck as 20k worth of battery backup in my math. We live in wildfire country and there are safety shutoffs and outages from storms somewhat regularly. Knowing I don’t need a generator to recharge batteries for an extended outage is more value.
Really dumb systemic problem bonus: my car insurance went down when I replaced a 10year old base model 5speed hatchback with this truck. I got a $50 rebate check.
So yeah, it’s not a panacea and I don’t think we’re trying to say it is. But it made enough sense for me.
