• infinitesunrise@slrpnk.netEnglish
    64·
    5 days ago

    Willing to bet that this (Or rather, the original you linked to) is based on zero peer-reviewed research and would be considered highly controversial in sociological discussions.

    We know that babies are naturally altruistic. So are other social animals. We see ourselves in others with little to no guidance to do so. This pyramid reads more like a guide for how to indoctrinate a child into an arbitrary moral system that isn’t based on care. In any case, “avoiding punishment” is absolutely not a normal first stage of moral development for anyone outside of an abusive environment.

    • SuperNovaStar@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
      25·
      5 days ago

      ^ This, and rational self interest is a perfectly developed, mature, and coherent outlook on morality. Not a ‘basal’ moral code that needs to be outgrown.

        • riwo@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          11·
          5 days ago

          i only got a few comments deep into in that reddit thread u linked, but i wanna respond already anyway, because it’s past midnight and i’m too eepy to look deeper.

          the people in the thread seem to be talking about a kind of selfish egoism, which advocates for the abuse of other peoples altruism, attempting to domniate and abuse, without giving.

          i don’t think this is the only egoism there is. i don’t follow anarchist egoism myself, and i did not look super much into it yet, but according to the surface level information i have about it, it proposes that it is in peoples best self interest to cooperate, and practice solidarity, and to fight hierarchies and domination because it is the best way to ensure our maximal and sustainable freedom, as well as allow us to sleep at night.

          i think it can be argued that this is still not entirely internally consistent, but i think it is definitely a moral framework i can’t say much against.

          • SuperNovaStar@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
            7·
            5 days ago

            Seems like you beat me to it. 😄

            But just to share my 2c: “Rational self interest” is not Randian egoism. It’s simply an acknowledgement that we are all animals seeking pleasure and avoiding pain, and that one would be not only irrational but going against one’s fundamental biology to attempt to act contrary to that fundamental axiom.

            I think this view has a lot of explanatory power, and it gives me a mental framework for giving other people grace: when they do things that hurt me, they are likely responding from a place of trauma or pain, and so I should attribute their behavior to those causes rather than assume they acted with calculated intention.

            As for the “inconsistencies” with that view, well - I don’t think that the world would be a worse place if everyone behaved this way. In fact, I greatly look forward to a world where everyone is educated, has access to mental healthcare, and has the self-awareness to interact with one another rationally rather than reactionarily. This won’t solve the problem of some people simply lacking empathy, but it will go a long way towards fixing society’s ills.

            • captainlezbian@lemmy.worldEnglish
              7·
              5 days ago

              Yeah there’s Stirnerite egoism which is basically "in a hierarchy I can’t guarantee a good position for myself so it’s better to oppose it and pursue a free society of equals with a high enough floor I don’t mind being on it.

              • The Quuuuuill@slrpnk.netEnglish
                4·
                5 days ago

                yet that’s the grounding of major schools of ethical thought like Emmanuel Kant and Carol Gilligan. i’m actually not sure where your statement is coming from in that from a long term perspective, the most selfish egotistical thing you can do is act and work in a manner that will bring about a world in which everyone’s needs are met. even when put to test in the crucible of crisis, we find over and over again that the idea that every individual is just another reflection of you helps us build more robust mutual aid networks that address systems failures better than any authority can

                • Goat@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
                  3·
                  4 days ago

                  Doesn’t look like you’re helping that. All you’ve achieved so far is having yelled at a bunch of people in a barbaric display of anger seasoned with superficially intellectual vocabulary and thereby alienated them from the flavor of intellectual inquiry that you purport to hold dear.

    • GraniteM@lemmy.worldEnglish
      4·
      4 days ago

      I saw a study where they showed babies a little play where a green puppet is trying to climb up a cliff and then there is a red puppet and a blue puppet. The red puppet smacks the green puppet and knocks it down, and the blue puppet helps the green one up the cliff. Then they give the babies a choice of playing with either the blue or red puppets, and the babies had a distinct preference for playing with the helpful blue puppet. The implication is that even infants have a fundamental understanding that it is better to be helpful of others than harmful, and I honestly feel that that’s a good indicator of how humanity’s natural state is one of help, cooperation, and kindness.

    • azolus@slrpnk.netOPEnglish
      5·
      4 days ago

      Honestly don’t know why it was in the original image. I was just too lazy to remove it. The whole image didn’t make that much sense, so I decided to make a meme out of it for fun.