Then I think our disagreement is how you define “the system”. There are many “systems” that people use for a lot of different things. Systems are neutral. They are tools. The only thing that makes them “good” or “bad” is how they’re used.
Capitalists have spent enormous amounts of money and a lot of time, turning those systems to their advantage. But, there’s nothing “wrong” with us using those same systems for our advantage. They are tools. They are meant to be used.
In the case of democracy, they function based on majority rule…which means that particular system is perfectly suited for the working class to use to our own advantage. We have the majority. That automatically should give us control over democracy. But it only works for us, if we all work together. If we aren’t unified, then we can’t change anything.
“Revolution” is just what happens when we finally get our shit together, and unify our efforts.
We cannot use the tools of capitalism for our advantage. Capitalist “democracy” is democracy for the capitalist class. The class that controls the means of production controls the state, and controls democracy. That is why the capitalist state needs to be smashed, and replaced with a socialist one.
Democracy is democracy. You may as well be saying, “We can’t use a Capitalist hammer. We need to smash all the Capitalist hammers, and make Socialist hammers, instead.” It’s absurd.
Nope, democracy depends on the class character of the state, which is not outside of the context of the economy but deeply embedded within it. Capitalists select the parties we can vote for, their representatives, and use the state to overturn any meaningful change.
You’re overthinking this, to the point where you aren’t listening to what I’m saying again. Systems are only “good” or “bad” because of how they are being used.
You are describing how they are being used, as a way of arguing against that point. How does that make sense to you?
I’m not even disagreeing with what you’re saying. I’m just wondering how you don’t understand what I’m saying. It’s like you’re saying the words, without actually thinking about what they mean.
I’m listening to what you’re saying, I just disagree with it. I’m not overthinking it, either. “Democracy” within the confines of a system where capitalists control the economy cannot be used to overturn their rule. You cannot ask them politely to give up their power, and they hold the state as well, even if the working classes were to win electorally, as Allende did in Chile and was coup’d shortly after for it. Revolution is necessary.
Dude. What are you talking about? Do you not understand how democracies work?
If it’s a democracy…then the majority decides. If it’s what you’re describing, then it isn’t a democracy, at all.
If it isn’t a democracy, then the ruling class would always win, right? That’s what you’re saying is true? Except that it’s pretty obvious that the ruling class doesn’t always win. Don’t get me wrong…I do believe we are getting closer to not being a democracy all the time…especially now…but that’s because not enough people showed up to vote last time, and now we have an actual fascist in power.
So, which is it? Either we can win if enough of us show up to vote against their candidates…or it doesn’t matter, no matter how many of us show up. Only one answer actually applies to reality, so this shouldn’t even be an argument.
Correct, capitalist democracy is not democracy at all. Within capitalism, the ruling class either wins, or has the tools to walk back a loss, such as couping Allende in Chile after he won democratically. Both Trump and Kamala Harris are examples of genocidal imperialists, both are representatives of the ruling class, every president has been a representative of the ruling class in US history.
If enough of us voted for PSL, the state would work against that unless we overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist one. This is reality, and as long as you remain trapped within the narrow mindset of bourgeois faux-democracy as your only option, then you will never get the change we need.
You keep seeing the state as outside of society, outside of class struggle, outside of how we produce and distribute. If we understand the state as a part of society and not outside and above it, then we have to recognize the class character of the state.
Then I think our disagreement is how you define “the system”. There are many “systems” that people use for a lot of different things. Systems are neutral. They are tools. The only thing that makes them “good” or “bad” is how they’re used.
Capitalists have spent enormous amounts of money and a lot of time, turning those systems to their advantage. But, there’s nothing “wrong” with us using those same systems for our advantage. They are tools. They are meant to be used.
In the case of democracy, they function based on majority rule…which means that particular system is perfectly suited for the working class to use to our own advantage. We have the majority. That automatically should give us control over democracy. But it only works for us, if we all work together. If we aren’t unified, then we can’t change anything.
“Revolution” is just what happens when we finally get our shit together, and unify our efforts.
We cannot use the tools of capitalism for our advantage. Capitalist “democracy” is democracy for the capitalist class. The class that controls the means of production controls the state, and controls democracy. That is why the capitalist state needs to be smashed, and replaced with a socialist one.
Democracy is democracy. You may as well be saying, “We can’t use a Capitalist hammer. We need to smash all the Capitalist hammers, and make Socialist hammers, instead.” It’s absurd.
Nope, democracy depends on the class character of the state, which is not outside of the context of the economy but deeply embedded within it. Capitalists select the parties we can vote for, their representatives, and use the state to overturn any meaningful change.
You’re overthinking this, to the point where you aren’t listening to what I’m saying again. Systems are only “good” or “bad” because of how they are being used.
You are describing how they are being used, as a way of arguing against that point. How does that make sense to you?
I’m not even disagreeing with what you’re saying. I’m just wondering how you don’t understand what I’m saying. It’s like you’re saying the words, without actually thinking about what they mean.
I’m listening to what you’re saying, I just disagree with it. I’m not overthinking it, either. “Democracy” within the confines of a system where capitalists control the economy cannot be used to overturn their rule. You cannot ask them politely to give up their power, and they hold the state as well, even if the working classes were to win electorally, as Allende did in Chile and was coup’d shortly after for it. Revolution is necessary.
Dude. What are you talking about? Do you not understand how democracies work?
If it’s a democracy…then the majority decides. If it’s what you’re describing, then it isn’t a democracy, at all.
If it isn’t a democracy, then the ruling class would always win, right? That’s what you’re saying is true? Except that it’s pretty obvious that the ruling class doesn’t always win. Don’t get me wrong…I do believe we are getting closer to not being a democracy all the time…especially now…but that’s because not enough people showed up to vote last time, and now we have an actual fascist in power.
So, which is it? Either we can win if enough of us show up to vote against their candidates…or it doesn’t matter, no matter how many of us show up. Only one answer actually applies to reality, so this shouldn’t even be an argument.
Correct, capitalist democracy is not democracy at all. Within capitalism, the ruling class either wins, or has the tools to walk back a loss, such as couping Allende in Chile after he won democratically. Both Trump and Kamala Harris are examples of genocidal imperialists, both are representatives of the ruling class, every president has been a representative of the ruling class in US history.
If enough of us voted for PSL, the state would work against that unless we overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist one. This is reality, and as long as you remain trapped within the narrow mindset of bourgeois faux-democracy as your only option, then you will never get the change we need.
You keep seeing the state as outside of society, outside of class struggle, outside of how we produce and distribute. If we understand the state as a part of society and not outside and above it, then we have to recognize the class character of the state.
Lol
You had a genocidal fascist in power previously too