I went into this a bit elsewhere in the thread, but I think the point is that this is a setting where the innate human desire to empathize, to form bonds with others, can be a weakness.
Ok, but what does this have to do with the core theme of the fleeting beauty of impermanent life? If the author is trying to emphasize the beauty of empathy and bonds, why introduce a Talking Points USA counterpoint that empathy is a weakness, that we have to be selective in our empathy and only empathize with the right people? Why is it ok to empathize with Elves or Dwarves or Humans, but not Demons? Why is it only this specific race of people who will take advantage of your empathy, and not, y’know some human bandits or something? How does this serve the narrative, or what narrative could it be pushing intentionally or otherwise?
I think it’s there just to enhance the immersion in the challenge the characters are facing.
Ok, but why does it have to be a little girl demon specifically tho. Why can’t the challenge be a dragon or a magic plant. Why does the moral of the story have to be “You can’t empathize with everything”? Why is Frieren killing a little girl demon framed as heroic? Isn’t that kinda fucked up? What purpose does that serve in the larger narrative?
They literally do not know the meanings of the words they say, or have any concept of the empathy which those words exploit. They are no more civilized or more sentient than the mimics or the ghost-mimics or the wolves or the giant plant. They just evolved into the niche of looking like they are, because that makes people easier to hunt.
Ok, but… if they’re just supposed to be monsters, why go out of the way to present them as people. Like, if you need a thinking opponent why invent an entire race biologically so neurodivergent they’re predisposed towards evil and not just like, make Frieren fight other mages taking an exam or something idk.
Where is the connection?
So, sometimes, what fascists do is they write stories where the lies they tell in real life are completely justified in the fictional world they create. They do this in order to spread their lies, because people who just take things at face value uncritically will knowingly or not internalize their ideas.
Yes, you laid out the diegetic argument for why the demons aren’t people, which is true according to the story’s logic. That’s a Thermian Argument.
I’m asking why the story is written that way in the first place. I’m criticizing it because it didn’t need to have been written this way at all.
Of course I know that Demons and Palestinians are two different things. Why can I make the comparison between what you wrote and IDF propaganda in the first place though? Other shows don’t leave the wiggle room for that kind of comparison.
Why does the story about celebrating the fleeting impermanence of life need an antagonistic race of people that are somehow biologically in-universe what right wingers accuse people from the global south of being, and must be exterminated on sight? Who is this story for?
Ok, but what does this have to do with the core theme of the fleeting beauty of impermanent life?
I don’t think every single scene in every show has to be a rehash of its core theme. Do you? Regardless, I’ll touch on this a little bit further down.
hy introduce a Talking Points USA counterpoint that empathy is a weakness, that we have to be selective in our empathy and only empathize with the right people?
I pretty clearly said I don’t think the author was trying to make any point like this at all. But on thinking on it more, I can answer this on its own terms, see below.
Ok, but why does it have to be a little girl demon specifically tho. Why can’t the challenge be a dragon or a magic plant.
I also pretty clearly addressed this. Neither of us needs to be told why a dragon or a giant maneating magic plant is a bad thing that you should kill. It’s not a challenge to us, to our feelings, to come to the conclusion that those things should be fought. There is an artistic difference between the choice to portray an antagonist no one will empathize with and an antagonist which most of us will empathize with on some level, especially when that is exactly the challenge the characters in the story are grappling with.
Why is Frieren killing a little girl demon framed as heroic?
There are a couple of reasons in my opinion. First of all, Frieren is exercising a lesson she learned from the person closest to her so long ago. Her determination to destroy demons wherever they are found is part of her connection to Flamme. On some level, she holds on tight to what she was taught by Flamme, because she loves Flamme and misses her and wouldn’t want to question whatever wisdom she taught her. On another level, part of her sense of self-worth is her effectiveness at fighting demons. She’s been training 24/7 for centuries for the sole purpose of making herself as effective as possible at killing demons. She has to see the extermination of demons as righteous and heroic, or she’s wasted a very long time even in elf time.
Another aspect is that Frieren is herself a victim of genocide. I don’t think the demons are especially effective parallels for fascists in most regards, but they certainly have elements of fascists that I think are intended. I think that the fact that Frieren, whose species was nearly successfully exterminated by demons (perhaps even successfully–since the population is likely never to stabilize) is one of the world’s staunchest and most powerful opponents of demons is intended as an anti-fascist allegory. She is heroic because she won’t allow fascism to take root under her nose. When she sees them, she gets rid of them. Because she has seen first hand the genocide they will commit unchecked. Is it not true that fascists ooze their way in under false pretenses and innocuous guises? Haven’t we all seen the baby-talking fascists spreading their fucking frog cartoons? There is an argument to be made that the “little girl” was precisely this disingenuous childish ruse fascists pull to covertly spread their agenda.
Ok, but what does this have to do with the core theme of the fleeting beauty of impermanent life? If the author is trying to emphasize the beauty of empathy and bonds, why introduce a Talking Points USA counterpoint that empathy is a weakness, that we have to be selective in our empathy and only empathize with the right people? Why is it ok to empathize with Elves or Dwarves or Humans, but not Demons? Why is it only this specific race of people who will take advantage of your empathy, and not, y’know some human bandits or something? How does this serve the narrative, or what narrative could it be pushing intentionally or otherwise?
Ok, but why does it have to be a little girl demon specifically tho. Why can’t the challenge be a dragon or a magic plant. Why does the moral of the story have to be “You can’t empathize with everything”? Why is Frieren killing a little girl demon framed as heroic? Isn’t that kinda fucked up? What purpose does that serve in the larger narrative?
Ok, but… if they’re just supposed to be monsters, why go out of the way to present them as people. Like, if you need a thinking opponent why invent an entire race biologically so neurodivergent they’re predisposed towards evil and not just like, make Frieren fight other mages taking an exam or something idk.
So, sometimes, what fascists do is they write stories where the lies they tell in real life are completely justified in the fictional world they create. They do this in order to spread their lies, because people who just take things at face value uncritically will knowingly or not internalize their ideas.
Yes, you laid out the diegetic argument for why the demons aren’t people, which is true according to the story’s logic. That’s a Thermian Argument.
I’m asking why the story is written that way in the first place. I’m criticizing it because it didn’t need to have been written this way at all.
Of course I know that Demons and Palestinians are two different things. Why can I make the comparison between what you wrote and IDF propaganda in the first place though? Other shows don’t leave the wiggle room for that kind of comparison.
Why does the story about celebrating the fleeting impermanence of life need an antagonistic race of people that are somehow biologically in-universe what right wingers accuse people from the global south of being, and must be exterminated on sight? Who is this story for?
I don’t think every single scene in every show has to be a rehash of its core theme. Do you? Regardless, I’ll touch on this a little bit further down.
I pretty clearly said I don’t think the author was trying to make any point like this at all. But on thinking on it more, I can answer this on its own terms, see below.
I also pretty clearly addressed this. Neither of us needs to be told why a dragon or a giant maneating magic plant is a bad thing that you should kill. It’s not a challenge to us, to our feelings, to come to the conclusion that those things should be fought. There is an artistic difference between the choice to portray an antagonist no one will empathize with and an antagonist which most of us will empathize with on some level, especially when that is exactly the challenge the characters in the story are grappling with.
There are a couple of reasons in my opinion. First of all, Frieren is exercising a lesson she learned from the person closest to her so long ago. Her determination to destroy demons wherever they are found is part of her connection to Flamme. On some level, she holds on tight to what she was taught by Flamme, because she loves Flamme and misses her and wouldn’t want to question whatever wisdom she taught her. On another level, part of her sense of self-worth is her effectiveness at fighting demons. She’s been training 24/7 for centuries for the sole purpose of making herself as effective as possible at killing demons. She has to see the extermination of demons as righteous and heroic, or she’s wasted a very long time even in elf time.
Another aspect is that Frieren is herself a victim of genocide. I don’t think the demons are especially effective parallels for fascists in most regards, but they certainly have elements of fascists that I think are intended. I think that the fact that Frieren, whose species was nearly successfully exterminated by demons (perhaps even successfully–since the population is likely never to stabilize) is one of the world’s staunchest and most powerful opponents of demons is intended as an anti-fascist allegory. She is heroic because she won’t allow fascism to take root under her nose. When she sees them, she gets rid of them. Because she has seen first hand the genocide they will commit unchecked. Is it not true that fascists ooze their way in under false pretenses and innocuous guises? Haven’t we all seen the baby-talking fascists spreading their fucking frog cartoons? There is an argument to be made that the “little girl” was precisely this disingenuous childish ruse fascists pull to covertly spread their agenda.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: