My opinion is that he is maximizing his current position by platforming DSA and PSL openly alongside his coverage of American electoralism. This obviously normalizes these organizations in the eyes of his mainstream audience, and these organizations provide opportunities for those people to interact with actual comrades (and thus “build the vanguard”).
The state of the imperial core left necessitates that a lot of lib shit (electoralism, DSA cringe, etc) is going to happen as a precursor to anything cool happening. It is up to us as political operatives to make the best use of the conditions around us. What is important is to be clear about the alternative vision.
I think the key to the alternative vision from within the core is to delegitimize the genocidal, imperial occupation of the North American continent by the United States. This is not to mention the imperialism that occurs overseas, of course. From this perspective Hasan is playing “both sides”: legitimizing through his coverage of US electoralism, and delgitimizing through his coverage of US imperialism. One side offers a mainstream platform, the other offers an off-ramp toward something actually useful.
I find this very useful in my political practice. It is much easier to point out “electoralism isn’t going to take you very far, we need to be more serious about anti-imperial/decolonial actions” to more and more people, since Hasan’s coverage has legitimized much of what I have to say before people hear from me.
This doesn’t give him a pass for whatever he says, it is just that I view it as a scoop of bad with a heap of good. That’s politics though.
He sings PSl’s praises every time it’s brought up and had them on stream during the May Day marches
Except PSL doesn’t seem to be willing to take advantage of his open door policy, and they weren’t particularly assertive or noticeable during the May Day Stream
Yes he has been invited to speak at PSL organized protests, and will name drop them on stream somewhat often. He could do more, and if PSL can get a shot a real win, I feel pretty confident that he will throw his full weight behind them. That will be the true test, becuase he does talk about how he doesn’t feel like he can support a third party unless and until it is viable to win something. He does a lot more for DSA right at the moment, more than he does for the Democratic party (ofc there is quite a bit of overlap there), because they have been gaining ground and actually pulling wins and strong challenges.
The essence of my comment is that is not up to Hasan to build PSL/the vanguard/whatever third party, he is just a commentator. That is up to us. If the legitiamcy of such a movement actually depends on the support of media commentator Hasan Piker, then I don’t expect it to get very far. It needs to have a robust amount of grassroots political support in the first place before he comes into the conversation.
but it takes more than a massive audience and a couple million dollars to “build the vanguard”.
what? No it doesn’t
You’re talking about building a cadre of dedicated and coordinated revolutionaries not talking about building and maintaining an army, which you could honestly probably still do with millions of dollars
I’d encourage you to elaborate on that. I’m wondering if you think that operating a party is less expensive than [I think] it is, or if you think Piker has more cash than [I think] he does.
He said “build the vanguard” and a vanguard doesn’t necessarily need to “be a party”
With millions of dollars you can literally pay at least a few dozen people to do nothing but be dedicated revolutionaries, congratulations you’re now building the vanguard
Right, I guess my understanding is that he makes around $1m/year (very likely less) through his streaming co-op. He has to pay himself ($250k?) his producer ($200k?) and an editor ($80k?). Travel and production costs are probably around $100k, probably a bit more.
That leaves around $400k available for political donations. People in the left-media space attest that he does make donations to various orgs without announcing it all the time. Since this is under the table, we dont really know where this funding goes, but I an willing assume he is generous toward Palestinian liberationary causes at a minimum. It’s not exactly building a vanguard, but I don’t have an issue with directing funds toward staff or resources for those orgs at all. I guess I could speculate further, but we are talking about a couple hundred thousand year at this point. It’s not enough to make-or-break the success of the left, if the vanguard depends on a couple hundred thousand a year from a single streamer, it is not robust enough to take and wield power anyway.
400k would pay for yearly 50k salaries for 8 people to do literally nothing but agitate, infiltrate other organizations, coordinate with established groups like the PSL, etc if you’ve done that congrats you’re establishing the vanguard
The vanguard isn’t The Bolsheviks, it’s the people who ultimately led and coordinated the bolsheviks, and it’s easier to cultivate, educate and train people for those roles when it’s literally their job.
He has to pay himself ($250k?) his producer ($200k?) and an editor ($80k?). Travel and production costs are probably around $100k
Citation needed (i’m not literally asking for citation) and also insane numbers to a person who makes <30k a year
Really i thought “oh well millions of dollars doesn’t mean he has millions in income” after i posted but like no lol that’s so much money
These payroll numbers include 50-100% overhead (typical rule of thumb) since they need to pay taxes and healthcare. I don’t think it is exactly my business how much they are personally paid by their co-op.
not to sound too “bootstraps”, but they earned it with minimal labor exploitation*.
A trip to a speaking event is going to be $3k minimum for travel/food/lodging for two people for a one day in and out, and probably $800/day along the way. I figure they are spending at least 30 days on the road this year.
I don’t think it would be wise to circumvent taxes as that offers red meat to the feds to throw you in jail immediately.
I do agree that it’s necessary to have paid leadership, I hope Piker is aware of this and doing his part, but he doesn’t have any accountability to me anyway besides parasociality I guess. This is also why I’m more interested in discussing how his platform can be used for better or worse for on the ground activities, rather than whatever he is actually doing.
I don’t think it would be wise to circumvent taxes as that offers red meat to the feds to throw you in jail immediately.
i think if you’re paying people to do a revolution you need to not get caught, I think you need to be doing shit that’d get you RICO charges (i wonder why that exists), and any talk of taxes or benefits or healthcare from this kinda misses the point of what im saying this should be. It’s not like the feds are going to let you build communism anyway just because your corporate structure complies with the law
I guess that’s all good and well but Hasan Piker is definitely not the guy you’re looking for. Everything he does is under scrutiny by US and Israeli government officials, they would be happy to get him in jail. Illegitimate actions require illegitimate actors and he is not it.
400k would pay for yearly 50k salaries for 8 people to do literally nothing but agitate, infiltrate other organizations, coordinate with established groups like the PSL, etc if you’ve done that congrats you’re establishing the vanguard
no it wouldn’t, there’s employment taxes and shit, even if they didn’t set up benefits, and if he was just using contractors we’d clown on him over that.
You’re envisioning hasan piker incorporated giving people jobs to do the business of communism and im envisioning hasan piker using whatever means necessary to siphon money to people to free them from having to spend the majority of their time and energy at a real job so that they can instead focus on revolutionary activity. without paying taxes
and honestly in that case 50k is a lot. plus benefits? dawg we are fighting a civil war nobody should be expecting a pension from shit like this
Idk I run into people in my organizing and personal life who cite him as an influence. Because these are my current and potential comrades I am interested in discussing how we can take advantage of his reach rather than discussing whether the streamer is doing a good or bad thing. He is not accountable to me or anyone else, so I need to work with whatever I’ve got.
oh yeah I am on board with the pipeline concept, I don’t really care if people are streaming or enjoying streamers or anything tbh I just also don’t expect anything out of anyone involved. people get radicalized in all kinds of ways, either way it won’t be enough before the empire collapses and either way we’ll have to figure out how to survive in the aftermath. and I do believe that if something actually viable cropped up Hasan would be one of the few people with as much influence as him who would probably support it in the end
![Finally, a second cointelpoints [cw:hasan]](https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/79a52618-3c2c-40cb-b40d-843dbe22b1ce.png){kind=link}
You won’t find me running defense for Planter but it takes more than a massive audience and a couple million dollars to “build the vanguard”.
Gives you a much better chance than the average bear
My opinion is that he is maximizing his current position by platforming DSA and PSL openly alongside his coverage of American electoralism. This obviously normalizes these organizations in the eyes of his mainstream audience, and these organizations provide opportunities for those people to interact with actual comrades (and thus “build the vanguard”).
The state of the imperial core left necessitates that a lot of lib shit (electoralism, DSA cringe, etc) is going to happen as a precursor to anything cool happening. It is up to us as political operatives to make the best use of the conditions around us. What is important is to be clear about the alternative vision.
I think the key to the alternative vision from within the core is to delegitimize the genocidal, imperial occupation of the North American continent by the United States. This is not to mention the imperialism that occurs overseas, of course. From this perspective Hasan is playing “both sides”: legitimizing through his coverage of US electoralism, and delgitimizing through his coverage of US imperialism. One side offers a mainstream platform, the other offers an off-ramp toward something actually useful.
I find this very useful in my political practice. It is much easier to point out “electoralism isn’t going to take you very far, we need to be more serious about anti-imperial/decolonial actions” to more and more people, since Hasan’s coverage has legitimized much of what I have to say before people hear from me.
This doesn’t give him a pass for whatever he says, it is just that I view it as a scoop of bad with a heap of good. That’s politics though.
Has he been platforming PSL? I don’t watch him but hadn’t heard about anything like that, I only ever seen him boost dems including some Zionists
He sings PSl’s praises every time it’s brought up and had them on stream during the May Day marches
Except PSL doesn’t seem to be willing to take advantage of his open door policy, and they weren’t particularly assertive or noticeable during the May Day Stream
Yes he has been invited to speak at PSL organized protests, and will name drop them on stream somewhat often. He could do more, and if PSL can get a shot a real win, I feel pretty confident that he will throw his full weight behind them. That will be the true test, becuase he does talk about how he doesn’t feel like he can support a third party unless and until it is viable to win something. He does a lot more for DSA right at the moment, more than he does for the Democratic party (ofc there is quite a bit of overlap there), because they have been gaining ground and actually pulling wins and strong challenges.
The essence of my comment is that is not up to Hasan to build PSL/the vanguard/whatever third party, he is just a commentator. That is up to us. If the legitiamcy of such a movement actually depends on the support of media commentator Hasan Piker, then I don’t expect it to get very far. It needs to have a robust amount of grassroots political support in the first place before he comes into the conversation.
Maybe it’s time he pushed a little harder on the left side of the scale then
what? No it doesn’t
You’re talking about building a cadre of dedicated and coordinated revolutionaries not talking about building and maintaining an army, which you could honestly probably still do with millions of dollars
I’d encourage you to elaborate on that. I’m wondering if you think that operating a party is less expensive than [I think] it is, or if you think Piker has more cash than [I think] he does.
He said “build the vanguard” and a vanguard doesn’t necessarily need to “be a party”
With millions of dollars you can literally pay at least a few dozen people to do nothing but be dedicated revolutionaries, congratulations you’re now building the vanguard
Right, I guess my understanding is that he makes around $1m/year (very likely less) through his streaming co-op. He has to pay himself ($250k?) his producer ($200k?) and an editor ($80k?). Travel and production costs are probably around $100k, probably a bit more.
That leaves around $400k available for political donations. People in the left-media space attest that he does make donations to various orgs without announcing it all the time. Since this is under the table, we dont really know where this funding goes, but I an willing assume he is generous toward Palestinian liberationary causes at a minimum. It’s not exactly building a vanguard, but I don’t have an issue with directing funds toward staff or resources for those orgs at all. I guess I could speculate further, but we are talking about a couple hundred thousand year at this point. It’s not enough to make-or-break the success of the left, if the vanguard depends on a couple hundred thousand a year from a single streamer, it is not robust enough to take and wield power anyway.
400k would pay for yearly 50k salaries for 8 people to do literally nothing but agitate, infiltrate other organizations, coordinate with established groups like the PSL, etc if you’ve done that congrats you’re establishing the vanguard
The vanguard isn’t The Bolsheviks, it’s the people who ultimately led and coordinated the bolsheviks, and it’s easier to cultivate, educate and train people for those roles when it’s literally their job.
Citation needed (i’m not literally asking for citation) and also insane numbers to a person who makes <30k a year
Really i thought “oh well millions of dollars doesn’t mean he has millions in income” after i posted but like no lol that’s so much money
These payroll numbers include 50-100% overhead (typical rule of thumb) since they need to pay taxes and healthcare. I don’t think it is exactly my business how much they are personally paid by their co-op. not to sound too “bootstraps”, but they earned it with minimal labor exploitation*.
A trip to a speaking event is going to be $3k minimum for travel/food/lodging for two people for a one day in and out, and probably $800/day along the way. I figure they are spending at least 30 days on the road this year.
I don’t think it would be wise to circumvent taxes as that offers red meat to the feds to throw you in jail immediately.
I do agree that it’s necessary to have paid leadership, I hope Piker is aware of this and doing his part, but he doesn’t have any accountability to me anyway besides parasociality I guess. This is also why I’m more interested in discussing how his platform can be used for better or worse for on the ground activities, rather than whatever he is actually doing.
i think if you’re paying people to do a revolution you need to not get caught, I think you need to be doing shit that’d get you RICO charges (i wonder why that exists), and any talk of taxes or benefits or healthcare from this kinda misses the point of what im saying this should be. It’s not like the feds are going to let you build communism anyway just because your corporate structure complies with the law
I guess that’s all good and well but Hasan Piker is definitely not the guy you’re looking for. Everything he does is under scrutiny by US and Israeli government officials, they would be happy to get him in jail. Illegitimate actions require illegitimate actors and he is not it.
no it wouldn’t, there’s employment taxes and shit, even if they didn’t set up benefits, and if he was just using contractors we’d clown on him over that.
You’re envisioning hasan piker incorporated giving people jobs to do the business of communism and im envisioning hasan piker using whatever means necessary to siphon money to people to free them from having to spend the majority of their time and energy at a real job so that they can instead focus on revolutionary activity. without paying taxes
and honestly in that case 50k is a lot. plus benefits? dawg we are fighting a civil war nobody should be expecting a pension from shit like this
If you’re going to demand i articulate a more coherent vision of How This Would Work maybe I could… if i had some of that hasan piker money!
Good luck convincing twitch viewers to do anything
Idk I run into people in my organizing and personal life who cite him as an influence. Because these are my current and potential comrades I am interested in discussing how we can take advantage of his reach rather than discussing whether the streamer is doing a good or bad thing. He is not accountable to me or anyone else, so I need to work with whatever I’ve got.
oh yeah I am on board with the pipeline concept, I don’t really care if people are streaming or enjoying streamers or anything tbh I just also don’t expect anything out of anyone involved. people get radicalized in all kinds of ways, either way it won’t be enough before the empire collapses and either way we’ll have to figure out how to survive in the aftermath. and I do believe that if something actually viable cropped up Hasan would be one of the few people with as much influence as him who would probably support it in the end
And they’re Americans, too