Doug Ford is an idiot. But Ontarians seem to love him.
the median voter in his base is likely around the age of 60, so it’s not merely that they are idiots now, but have likely been that way for a long time.
no fucking coincidence there…
I would have to see crash and accident data concurrent with the change before I say anything.
This. Higher speeds in isolation mean nothing if the design of the streets keep drivers equally safe at those higher speeds.
I mean, it’s usually Germany and other neighbours in Europe that put such forethought intentionally into the designs of roads (look up the YouTube channel Not Just Bikes for more info), but we occasionally have strange confluences over here, too
One thing Germany has is a lot more variety in speed limits.
Within a minute you can go from 100 to 150 to no speed limit to 50. But good luck convincing people to put a 50 zone on the 401.
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You’re not gonna get me to agree on this one. I have gotten two speeding tickets for going 2km over. Thats nothing but another way to fleece and steal from the working class. We all know where the speeders and racers hang out and the cops don’t do shit
I think motorists are given way too much freedom in car-dominated cities across the globe, but at the same time, yeah, any sane person should agree that such a small deviation from the posted speed limits don’t deserve to be punished the same as a 10km/h to 20km/h higher deviation; it’s just not logical.
I’ll admit, I’ve sped so much in my past, doing 160km/h on highways with posted limits of 80km/h, and there would still be people riding my bumper on occasion at such speeds. They should have punished people like me, who liked fucking around and never found out because punishments for speeding are very unequal across the board.
It’s so selfishly myopic to look at the differences in fatality between 40 and 50, to look at the effects on driving speeds that these camera have, and then conclude, “This is a pointless money grab!” Like, dude, you’re clearly lying to yourself out loud. The lies we tell ourselves are not convincing to others.
I feel like there’s a middle ground between your two posts, like the speed limit should be lowered by 5 and that should be added as a margin of error. That way you don’t get angry people behind you for going under the speed limit when you’re just trying to not get a ticket.
I’m not sure it’s super constructive to be so antagonistic, especially when the other person has a valid concern.
Right, yeah, the middle ground is, “continue to be a menace to pedestrians,” great. Heavens forbid we inconvenience a motorist. We’re not lowering limits and controlling illegal speeding because it’s fun. You should have a look at pedestrian fatality stats from the last ten years.
He does NOT have a valid concern. He has privilege that he feels has been threatened, and he has formed it into an objection-shaped lie. It’s gross entitlement that endangers other people’s lives. These cameras are not a cash-grab. The valid concern here is not killing innocent, vulnerable people.
I think what you’re not grasping is the classism at play. Motorists are a relatively affluent, powerful class who are straight up killing several-fold more people from a relatively poor, relatively disabled, relatively powerless, stigmatized and victimized class than they need to, not even for convenience but for the fucking FASHION of wearing an oversized vehicle while they speed around the city. And then they fucking BITCH about it.
People need to be a lot more angry about this. If you are not aware, after decades of improvement, pedestrian fatalities have spiked recently to their highest levels in more than 40 years. This is no longer a friendly disagreement. Our own government, the body responsible for ensuring the safety of all road users, is turning protection of the most vulnerable users into a culture war issue. This shit is not okay.
Devils advocate: if they are catching such slim margins they equally should be catching people going 5, 10 or 15 over of not more and actually being dangerous.
Yes it sucks to get fined for being in the margin of error, but if it was anywhere a residential or school zone I’d say it’s worth it given how easy it is for a child to wander into the street and how little it takes for a car to seriously harm or kill said child.
The best solution is just better public transit so people don’t feel the need to drive but getting more drivers to drive safer is a good first step
Luckily all the school areas have flashing signs that show you your speed .
And your second point about public transit, Thats a pipe dream. Come live in Toronto, it’s never going to happen. It would be lovely if transit was well funded, if it didn’t cost me $4 to travel 8km in 90 minutes. But Thats never going to happen. Not unless we nuke the rich. We have been hearing about new transit plans that get immediately canceled by the next administration for decades. All we do is get jerked around
Speed cameras are practically a requirement in Korea. People here would be blasting through school zones at 100kph otherwise. No joke. As it is, you can see rich fucks in their fancy cars ignoring them since the only punishment is a fine that they wouldn’t even notice.
Bali Bali culture indeed.
Speed cameras definitely work, they’re getting better at catching folks as the technology matures.
Of course, they’re also a form of state surveillance, generally deployed as a money printer, and generally distract drivers (you see those lines on the road, your vision tunnels, you check speed, and you lose peripheral for about 1–2 seconds).
I mean, I think pneumatic road tubes are far more effective for capturing cleaner data on vehicle speeds over time, since they are less visible and likely unnoticed by many drivers. They aren’t there to fine drivers, but I’m sure with a small hidden camera, they could work in the same way. Not sure why speed cameras are so visible, since people almost always in my experience, will speed back up after leaving the area of the speed camera, negating the benefits swiftly.
By that logic, posted speed limits are a hazard to pedestrians because they distract drivers who then check their goddamn speed. I mean you must be joking.
Apples to oranges - a speed camera necessitates and immediate check and possible adjustment; a speed limit is a delayable check where safety can be evaluated first.
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You are stretching so fucking hard to split that hair. Yes, I can see that they are slightly different. They are apples to oranges, but you would like to pretend its apples to riding lawnmowers. It’s ridiculous, you can see that, right? And it’s just a distraction from reality and evidence.
The OP chart is one item from a huge consistent body of evidence that shows that drivers are perfectly capable of adapting to the presence of speed cameras. Speed cameras are not a hazard to pedestrian safety and if that isn’t a bad faith argument, buddy, you’re actually literally deluding yourself. In fact they are a huge benefit to pedestrian safety. That is why this legislation is not likely to stand.
I think this is the difference - you’re assuming a distracted driver is only a danger to pedestrians. Big mistake.
The op’s chart shows a difference in speeds, not a difference in incident rates; you’ve inferred higher and/or more serious incident rates from a speed chart. If I wanted to outright attack the argument my line would be “was there any measure of speed before and after in areas outside the camera’s capture zone”; since most drivers appear to just slow down for the camera and re-accelerare after. One could argue the chart shows no change in driver behaviour, merely driver performance in an enforcement area. You’re conflating the metric (speeds measured before and after in the same spot) with what it should measure (driver compliance to the law when using the road).
If you get distracted from a speed camera you should not be allowed to drive. You are the problem.
If you are incapable of understanding the compulsion to check compliance, there is no hope for you. Consider not driving for everyone’s safety.
If it takes 1-2 seconds to check your speedometer you shouldn’t be driving.
The seatbelt and phone cameras here in Australia are rather interesting to view the captures from. Working for a government body people would come in to our self service area and want to view the photos (which can be done at home, on your phone or pc); they’d get in a bit of a huff and puff once they saw the images.
The angles these cameras are placed get most angles drivers try to hide their phone usage, and the resolution is decent considering the cameras distance away.
Cameras catching distracted drivers are a great win in my eyes, no one should be fumbling their phone while trying to drive.
Looks like intended use - great idea!
Folks should know phones are banned in cars for a good reason.
That high of a percentage of drivers exceeding the limit doesn’t demonstrate the need for speed cameras, but rather a gross failure of road design and traffic engineering.
Enforcement should come after traffic calming and pedestrianization efforts have failed. North American cities are notoriously bad at that.
Speed cameras ARE traffic engineering, and here is the evidence that they work. They are not the only tool available, but to act like they weren’t doing anything about traffic engineering is a bizarre take.
All I see is a study that shows places where the posted limit should be increased. If there are concerns about pedestrians then safer crossings, pedestrian education, or road redesigns should be the focus.
I don’t understand the constant push toward reducing the speed of road traffic and I say this as somebody who has been a pedestrian and a driver for several decades.
I mostly agree, where it’s reasonable. In places with a large presence of pedestrians, I don’t exactly, except for on road design. The roads should come up and meet pedestrian level, not pedestrians going to street level, for example. This requires that cars go slower. It isn’t an issue of pedestrian education though. Pedestrians shouldn’t need education. The design should just work to protect them.
But yeah, usually cars “speeding” consistently is a sign speed limits need increased. Lower speed limits increase the difference in speeds of cars, some going the limit and some going the speed they’re comfortable with (the speed fo traffic). This delta causes accidents, and the larger the delta the worse the accident. If people are always speeding, the limit needs to match them.
I think it really depends. Often times the roads existed before the people. If they wanted to live near a 50-80km roadway, that’s their choice.
I’m so tired of watching speed limits creep down and people continually crying about speeding when the issue is attentiveness and awareness.
IMO people not signaling intent and running trains through yellow/red lights to make left turns are FAR more dangerous than people going 15-20 km over the limit down straight highways with little traffic. Oh, and people who camp in the passing labe and force people to undertake to get around them.
As for pedestrians, it’s people standing on the curb and crossing streets with their heads down on their phones and headphones on. What happened to the rule of crossing as quickly and safely as possible, and paying attention all around your as your cross?
We should also be putting fault in vehicle manufacturers who continue to produce complex touchscreen-based infotainment systems.
Um, but even with that, the stark difference in the data also shows that the cameras were an effective means of traffic calming.
Ford forced municipalities onto speed cameras in place of the road design changes that they were doing.
Traffic calming and pedestrianization efforts have failed.
You’re getting downvoted, but it’s true. Ford has also passed laws making changes to existing roads more difficult.
Yup. I think it’s the difference between looking at how things actually are and what they could be. We all know that better road design and pedestrian streets are the gold standard solution. Implementing any of those doesn’t happen in vaccuum. We need the political organization needed to enable them. We don’t have it. We don’t even have the plausibility of having it. The small bits we’ve managed to do on municipal basis are getting reversed. So in reality those initiatives have failed to decrease vehicle speeds. The fact that it’s because we can’t actually implement enough of them, for people of Ontario, … I consider immaterial in the current context. If we were in an emvironment where it was actually plausible we could implement calming and pedestrianization changes and we were debating those as opposed to speed cams, then that would matter greatly. In the Ontario reality we live in, with Ford leading us for 8 years and counting, with the NDP at 20%, I think it’s useful to consider those efforts as failed and fight for whatever measures are plausible and achieve the speed decrease we want in order to save pedestrians lives and injuries. And the graph here shows traffic cams did indeed work, all else being equal.
Don’t care, fuck your speed cameras.
Obviously you do care. Why?
Probably unable to compare two given numbers.
They’ll do anything to actually fix the root of the problem. Speed cameras is an invisible deterrent and usually highly unpopular. What they should have done is change the road design. Anything less is a cash grab since the fines doesn’t go back into the road system directly to actually induce long term change.
We also need to talk about the capabilities of modern cars, licensing, and the age and capabilities of the drivers on the road.
Newer cars these days have sensors with emergency braking, but this is not foolproof. However, we know that cars can be made to have more safety features for not only the passengers of the car, but also those on the road. So when will the government mandate more safety features of driving a multi-ton steel box? Here’s another more extreme solution, if the highest speed limit in the entirely of Canada is for example…120km/h - then why allow cars go faster than that?
Licensing has been inconsistent. Looking at the kinds of driving happening on the road these days lack of signalling, impaired driving, erratic driving, spatial awareness of other drivers - it’s clear that people are getting licensed somehow, one way or another. There’s even been cases of delivery truck drivers operating without a valid license.
Then there’s the age aspect and those that lack skill due to how little some people drive. You see people with 20+ year old cars and you look inside and it’s an elderly person driving below the speed limit. They’re causing a massive jam - yet nothing is done about it. In the eyes of the law, they’re driving safely. You and everyone’s time be damned eh?
Or how about we actually invest in good, cheap, efficient public transport? An actual rail network? A highspeed rail network? Oh wait - this is Canada, we can’t have that. We’re too fucking broke to have anything these days and gotta go around and beg private capital to come in to ‘save us’. Canada Strong alright./s
Anything less is a cash grab since the fines doesn’t go back into the road system directly to actually induce long term change.
Your username is fitting with this one.
Every single municipality I checked out when these first came into effect put all funds above operation fees into road reconstruction for traffic calming measures. I worked with the City of Barrie to directly do a traffic calming assessment primarily funded through the use of traffic cameras.
Or how about we actually invest in good, cheap, efficient public transport? An actual rail network? A highspeed rail network?
I agree, but go check out the comments and petitions against the new high-speed line proposed and you’ll see that were in the minority.
What’s the constant push toward lowering speed limits instead or pushing for better public transit options and putting proper responsibility on pedestrians?
When I walk across an intersection, I take my headphones off and I’m looking around me to make sure nobody is going to run me down. The number of people I see sauntering across intersections at the speed of smell while staring at their phones and listening to music is too fucking high.
Yeah, pedestrians have the right of way - but who’s going to win the fight? I’d rather not end up with a tombstone that reads “But I had the right of way!”
putting proper responsibility on pedestrians
Yeah, pedestrians have the right of way
Choose one.
Right of way does not mean you win the fight if a person driving a vehicle isn’t paying attention. Like I said, I don’t want to have a tombstone that reads “…but I had the right of way”.
When I walk, I have the right of way the second the walk sign goes up, but I still stop and look to make sure I’m not going to get creamed.
I also don’t blindly step out into traffic just because I have the RiGhT oF wAy.
A bit of critical thinking and awareness goes a long way toward survivability 🤷♂️
I’m saying it’s the car drivers that need “proper responsibility” put on them. If they don’t have the right of way, they need to yield. Just because a car will kill a pedestrian in a collision doesn’t mean the pedestrian needs to be more responsible and should have more rules and regulations governing them. In fact, killing pedestrians so easily is exactly why there need to be more rules and regulations for driving a car.
Those two lines I quoted from you are a contradiction. If pedestrians have the right of way, then they’re doing everything they’re legally responsible for in an interaction. Just because the law doesn’t protect you from careless drivers doesn’t mean that the pedestrian is suddenly responsible for the consequences.
Both need to have responsibility, yes, however we need to stop coddling pedestrians because they’re too unwilling to be safe when they cross. There are far bigger dangers on the road than people speeding.
A better solution would just be to strip the right of way from pedestrians, but everybody would get their panties in a bunch over that too because of this stupid selfish mentality that people have. When I walk, I let cars go ahead - they’ll clear the area faster than I can, and it clears the risk from my path when they go. Eliminating the risk and really putting no inconvenience on anybody.
Further addressing the issue would mean putting in additional crosswalks to prevent jat- walking and unsafe crossings, as would improved public transit.
If we’re so hellbent on speeding drivers, maybe we should also start ticketing people who walk faster than most on the sidewalk too?
we need to stop coddling
pedestriansdrivers because they’re too unwilling to be safe when theycrossdrive.Why are you trying to put all the responsibility on pedestrians, people out walking, instead of drivers, who need to pass a driving test and need a driver’s license in order to operate their multiple tons of machinery in public places? What’s the point of it all if not making drivers more responsible for their actions?
A better solution would just be to strip the right of way from pedestrians
Further addressing the issue would mean putting in additional crosswalks to prevent jay-walking and unsafe crossings, as would improved public transit.
How would that help? If pedestrians don’t have the right of way, why does it matter if they’re in the crosswalk or not? It’s not like they’d be any more protected from the speeding cars that are no longer obligated to stop for them just because there’s some paint on the ground.
If we’re so hellbent on speeding drivers, maybe we should also start ticketing people who walk faster than most on the sidewalk too?
If that person could kill or maim someone by walking into them, then maybe. As it is, cars have the highest potential for damage and loss of life, so they should have the most rules restricting them.
everybody would get their panties in a bunch over that too because of this stupid selfish mentality that people have
How is this not exactly what you’re doing right now about cars not being able to speed without punishment?
The drivers are just as shit, not using blinkers, racing yellow lights camping in the overtake lanes. They’re a problem too, but again, the ones speeding are the least of my worries regardless of whether I’m walking or driving somewhere.
Crosswalks would signal traffic flow and grant any traffic moving in that direction the right of way, just like any other intersection. If you want to give pestrians the right of way in an intersection, that’s fine. Makes sense in that case as it gives them a fair chance to get across. That said the number of people crossing when the hand is up is insane, I’ve yet to see people get ticketed for that… That’s far worse than somebody doing 15 km over on a straight stretch of road with little traffic as they could easily get stranded, or leave vehicles stuck in an intersection waiting to turn after their light changes because they had to wait for a person to cross against their signal.
That person could kill or maim the slower walkers, who knows… But at the same time, cars typically aren’t speeding down sidewalks and stick to the pathways designed for them. With the exception of intersections, the speed of vehiclar traffic should have zero significance to people walking on a sidewalk.
Because I am sick of watching speed limits decrease over time because people move into areas near highways and whine and moan about the speed of vehicles that far predate their existence in those areas. We literally have four-lane straight roadways with 50kmh limits, and some that were 80 that are now down to 60-70 for whatever reason. If people driving wanted to go slower, they should consider riding a bike or walking instead…
The issue is generally not speed. The issue is distractions and people not following the basics like using indicators or traveling in correct lanes, or running lights and stop signs. These generally have little to do with speed when you consider where the majority of people are speeding.
I can agree with you there. It’s a shared public space - we all have to take some responsibility.
Yup, but good luck getting through to people. Seems decency and critical thinking are out the window with selfishness and entitlement.
This is more a chart demonstrating bad road design or regulation, and the incompetence of the enforcement. Either the roads are designed in such a way that huge numbers of people feel safe driving at these speeds (because the speed limit is too low, or the road designed unsafely) or there is a large number of unsafe drivers who only stopped in the presence of cameras, and who went right back to unsafe driving without issue.
This. I’ve driven in many roads where the speed limit was so unreasonably low that you’d get honked at consistently for respecting it
This is a chart demonstrating that speed cameras are sometimes an effective intervention for an otherwise badly designed road.
Reports from my city indicate collisions go up with speed cameras.
We already know speed has little to do with safety.
These are a shit implementation of a bad idea.
or there is a large number of unsafe drivers who only stopped in the presence of cameras, and who went right back to unsafe driving without issue
…thus proving the effectiveness of cameras…
Only if you have cameras on literally every road. No substantial action is being taken, so they go right back to dangerous driving as soon as they aren’t on-camera, as this graph seems to indicate.
Only if you have cameras on literally every road
Deal
If they need to be monitored at all times to be safe, do you not think it would be better to take away their licence?
It’s quite difficult to retroactively adjust the traffic speed, without causing knock on issues.
A road might have been designed to cope with 50, but hidden junctions, or pedestrians might knock it down to a 30. Making it feel like a 30 is quite different.
I’d personally prefer other, more polite methods. In the UK, the signs showing your current speed in either green (good) or red (too fast) are remarkably effective. I accept that speed cameras are needed when the other methods fail.
Proviso, the cameras should be blatantly obvious, with no ambiguity over the limit. It should only catch people both deliberately speeding, and not paying enough attention to spot the risks of speeding.
For anyone looking for more details on this, I highly recommend this video from Oh the Urbanity
It discusses this exact phenomenon in the data: speeding before and after the banning of automated enforcement cameras. It also argues effectively that the policy is inconsistent with Doug Ford’s platform of being “tough on crime”
It also argues effectively that the policy is inconsistent with Doug Ford’s platform of being “touch on crime”
When have actual implemented conservative policies ever been consistent with conservative “tough on crime” platforms?
They said “touch on crime” which I assumed related to the Epstein files but now that you mention it, a typo is probably more likely
Where’s the car accident incident report rates?
Raw incident numbers would not express the full picture since incidents are both more common and more severe at greater speed.
Raw autism numbers would not express the full picture since autism diagnoses are both more common and more severe after vaccination.
Turns out you can say whatever you want if you just ignore the raw numbers
ironic
You can’t claim that without the actual data.
Show me the fucking rule, buddy. As a matter of actual fact, you can’t tell me what I can and can’t claim. You can refute it with evidence, you can choose not to accept it, and that’s about as far as your options go.
You can’t tell me what I can and can’t tell you what you can and can’t claim.
Also, I’m not your buddy, guy.
Accidents at what speed?
Great, so now we know the areas where the posted speeds should be increased 🤷♂️
I thought speed cameras were originally only in school zones.
Less than ten percent? Not good but I’m surprised it isn’t more tbh. I’ve noticed it especially at rush hour, people whipping through side streets to save eleven seconds
15 km/h faster than the limit is obviously dangerous in most places, you need reduced survival instincts for that
Enforcers should be very transparent as to where money from fines goes.
Enforcement was for the traffic cameras? Literally every municipality I looked at had a page on their website discussing it. Every one had the fines go first to operation/maintenance of the fine system, then to a road reconstruction fund to further reduce speeding.
Good to know.
Throw it in the river for all I care. The point is to punish people who are breaking the law.
If fines are too annoying to administer, suspend the license and issue lifetime driving bans for repeat offenders. No more whining.
Well the government’s job to care for everyone and the point is safety. Punishment is meant to fit the offence/crime. Suspensions and bans are always on the table.
I wish they’d put the same enforcement on people not using blinkers and running red lights to make left turns as they did prople going 15k over limits down straight roads with little traffic around…
Running reds seems like a great job for cameras.
Blinkers are difficult because its so fast and is best seen from within traffic. Even if you had a person sitting there doing a sting it would be difficult to catch.
Many municipal transit systems all full of cameras pointed at the passengers. I think those would be better utilized pointing out at traffic.
Oh, well yeah it’d go up where the cameras were posted, how is this surprising?
