No, the ‘number one’ way to help the planet is to not have children, undeniable fact. Diet is number two
Actually, deposing the wealthy is #1, no children #2, and diet #3.
I feel like not having kids kinda defeats the purpose of saving the planet
That’s your DNA’s raging narcissism speaking. Not to impugn yours specifically, of course. The interests of an intelligent mind are not the same as the interests of the biological system that hosts it. Consider what’s actually important to you as more than a pile of meat. Reproduction is so selfish when there are so many humans with unmet needs already reaching out for your help.
I’ve not had 20 kids, so now I get to eat a bunch of animals, and fly a bunch of private jets, and roll coal all day long!
Also, your decision to eat meat in a western country DOES actually cause as much damage as some entire families existence in the poorer countries like Nigeria.
That’s a lot of absolutism for someone not specifying a defining context.
No definition of “help”, “the planet” or “diet” means it’s wide open to contra-examples.
I think the assumption is that he’s talking about people changing their diets. Can’t / probably shouldn’t advocate for parents getting rid of their children.
That said, there are probably more direct actions one can take for our ecology that eclipse consumer choices.
not parents getting rid of their children; people not having them in the first place
no no, let’s explore this…
deposing the tech bros is the no 1 way to help our planet
I’m pretty sure excising the tumor that is the wealthy, the cause of most of our problems, comes first.
Anything to keep torturing animals
As Yanis Varoufakis mentioned, the technofeudalists(the wealthy who own Big Tech) are the new fascists
Cool, and you’re actively doing that? You’re working on a concrete plan that will actually create that outcome? And going vegan in the meantime will actually materially harm your efforts for that?
How often do we gotta pull out that tweet until you people learn? To paraphrase: "People online will be like ‘Your approach of veganism pales in comparison to my plan of eating the rich!’, and then never eat the rich or go vegan.
Yeah, so he is exactly right! Switching to a diet of very rich red meat
Lol no it fucking isn’t, all the biggest threats to our planet require collective action to address, individualist bullshit like this is deliberate propaganda in favor of the current status quo, the people pushing it are all either incurable morons or paid for it, sometimes both
Sounds like an excuse to do nothing. “Why should I change how I live my life? I’d rather whine on the internet that something else should be done by someone else”.
You’re blaming the peasants for eating meat while the ruling class jump from yacht to yacht in private jets, your priorities are stupid and your strategy is completely useless
I didn’t blame people for eating meat. I blamed them for inaction. Because instead of taking an action that brings some positive results, you opt to do absolutely nothing. Your strategy is more than useless - it’s delusional.
You don’t have a clue what actions anyone is talking and you don’t care, you just want to deflect from the biggest threats to our environment and focus on individual action. You’re either a moron or an ag industry psyop, embarrassing either way.
I gotta say, extrapolating from this thread, this is the worst “vegan” community I’ve seen since /r/vegan.
As related by famed biologist and renowned chemist Woody Harrelson PhD, millionaire esq.
NEVER Trust the rich when they tell you that your decisions are causing the problems.
The real problem is that the rich only give the poor so many options to choose from. Then they tell the poor to blame other poors for choosing wrong.
NEVER TRUST CELEBRITIES OR THEIR PROPAGANDA
Well, the beauty of research is that you can actually do it, instead of spouting whatever nonsense that was.
If Bill Gates tells you tomorrow to not kill puppies, you killing puppies overmorrow?
The real problem is that the rich only give the poor so many options to choose from.
So the rich do not give you the option to reduce the animal products in your diet? IMHO there are many good reasons to blame rich people, big oil etc., but that doesn’t mean that everyone individually is released from any kind of responsibility. Vegan diets are available, affordable and healthy. If you’re unwilling to question your habits and adapt your lifestyle for the better, that’s your choice. Don’t put the blame on others.
“… Don’t put the blame on others.”
Only thing you said that’s close to correct. Don’t be pretentious.
Humans are omnivores. Eating meat is okay. If you wanna discuss the ethics of end-user life choices under late-stge capitalism in a food desert, that’s fine, but don’t sugar coat your morals and shove them down my throat. Just don’t eat meat for yourself, and be the change you want to see in the world. If you’re doing it so you can tell others what to do, or that they’re not as good as you because they don’t do what you do, then you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.
I don’t have to blame big oil, I can blame the rich people exploring capitalism. They’re the reason all the otherwise affordable stuff is expensive. Single-mom Susie and hunter Dave feeding their family are not the problem. Capitalism is the problem, and the rich people want to keep getting richer.
They’re blaming the poor with a baited line, and you swallowed.
Yelling omnivores is exactly as stupid as conservatives talking about this or that being natural or unnatural.
And in socialism, the exploitation of the planet for meat production didn’t happen? I’d love to see any sort of data on that.
Finally, you likely pretend to be smart, at least much smarter than all the capitalism fans. Yet, you lack any and all concept of the material reality of meat production, or most production while we’re at it. Meat production IS unsustainable at anywhere close to the amount we have today. Throw in environmental and worker protection, and you’ll eat meat like caviar.
BTW, if in your dream worker collective, everybody votes to keep polluting the earth because they just can’t give up meat, do I then get to have morals?
I never said socialism was better, and I never said i was an omnivore. I’m not entirely sure, but it seems like you’re changing what I said in your mind so you can win an argument we aren’t actually having.
If you want to discuss what I was trying to say, try this: I believe that the production of animal products for consumption inherently creates emissions and causes environmental damages that come as part of the production process. The owners of these businesses receive compensation for the production of this product. I believe that the people who own businesses and receive this compensation are the ones who should be responsible for the emissions and damages caused by their businesses, not the people who consume their products.
Eating meat isn’t the problem, and therefore not eating meat will not solve the problem. Unless, of course, you can somehow convince the population of the world to stop consuming meat, which sounds rather idyllic. Veganism can, however, have numerous health benefits. And if you don’t like animals dying just so you can eat, then boy do i have a diet for you!
The reason people say that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism is because capitalism is exploitative by nature. Any time you consume something produced in a capitalist market, you are incentivizing exploitation. That is a value we have to compromise on to some degree or other in order to live within a capitalist market system.
I definitely didn’t say socialism was any better.
If you want to disagree with any of that, we can discuss it. But i was already an asshole to rbn yesterday and I don’t want that happening again, either direction. So if you’re not going to discuss my actual opinion, then just don’t bother at all.
If billions of people on the planet want to eat animal products, this inevitably causes significant harm to the nature, the animals and ourselves (global warming, pandemics etc.). Just because our species lived off meat in the past (with way less individuals) that doesn’t mean we can and should continue like this.
The consumption of animal products isn’t the problem.
It is the exploitation of the production for profits, which is not a choice of the consumer. This is what causes the problems in nature: increases in greenhouse gasses like methane and the inability of our planet to re-uptake carbon through the reckless destruction of carbon locking plant life environments like oceans and forests, etc all.
You can point fingers at people who want to eat meat all you want but personal responsibility is incapable of balancing out the atrocities that are rewarded thru capitalism. This is intentional, and it is being perpetuated by the ones being rewarded for it. The rich.
If you think for one minute that not eating animal products is going to resolve these issues, then you’re deluding yourself.
There is nothing wrong with not eating animal products, if you can afford to live like that. But be honest with yourself about the realities that others experience; both those who can’t afford to or just don’t want to live like that, and the ones exploiting the world’s resources for personal gain. There is a huge difference in culpability between these groups.
The consumption of animal products isn’t the problem. It is the exploitation of the production for profits
Greenhouse gases aren’t created through exploitation, but by the pure existence of the animals. Even if we hypothetically held all animals under perfect conditions (which is impossible anyhow due to lack of land and ressources), it doesn’t significantly reduce the greenhouse gases. If you want to lower the emmissions, people must lower and ideally stop the consumption.
You can point fingers at people who want to eat meat
I don’t fingerpoint at omnivores. I fingerpoint at people who claim that people consuming animal products is only the fault of some third party rich people. We know that veganism helps the planet in many aspects. If you decide to live different that’s OK, but it’s your choice.
if you can afford to live like that.
Unless you’re a Mongolian shepard in an area where soil and weather allow nothing but grass and goats or you live off food donations only, that’s not true. For people who buy their food in supermarkets, veganism isn’t more expensive than an omnivore diet. If you live off basic ingredients rather than comfort food, it’s usually rather cheaper.
“Greenhouse gasses aren’t created through exploitation”
This is the most obtuse statement you could possibly make for your argument. Exploitation of resources is the single biggest cause of greenhouse gas accumulation in the world today. You clearly lack an understanding of the causes and sources of greenhouse gasses.
“I don’t fingerpoint at omnivores”
And “… people must lower and ideally stop [animal product] consumption.”These are mutually exclusive statements. One cannot be true while stating the other at the same time.
“Unless you’re a Mongolian shepherd…”
This^ is the beginning of one of the most privileged, bigoted, ignorant, vapid, dishonest, and ridiculous statements you’ve ever uttered in your life.
“if you live off basic ingredients rather than comfort food, it’s usually cheaper.”
Blaming individual people again for costing themselves too much by trying to be comfortable. Yet still unwilling to blame the groups who literally destroy the world to enrich themselves off it’s resources and rob us of our future in doing so… financially, environmentally, spiritually, physically. All so they can add another decimal point to their uncountable dragon’s hoard office wealth.
This exploitation is the cause of almost all of our problems, and it isn’t perpetuated by consumers. It is perpetuated by the elite and propaganda that people like yourself regurgitate that puts the onus on the poor, and allows you to live guilt free in some ideal fantasy in your own head because you’re doing your part and everyone else just needs to live by your rules.
You sound like a corporate shill. A capitalist apologist. An entitled individual of privilege who lacks empathy and culture, but not lacking in the time and money to go to nice grocery stores for ingredients you can craft into healthy, balanced, wholesome meals.
Regardless of who you are versus who you sound like, you are incapable of making reasonable arguments. Best of luck convincing people of your opinion when you can’t see where they’re coming from. Have a nice day.
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I think it was very clear from context they were talking about exploitation of animals, not resources in general.
This is the most obtuse statement you could possibly make for your argument.
There are many humans on this planet. If a majority of these humans consumes animal products as they do today this means massive greenhouse gases. If you see a way to strike out the emmissions without striking out production and consumption - please enlighten me.
These are mutually exclusive statements.
They aren’t.
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If you want to lower emmissions from animal agriculture, you have to reduce animal agriculture. As an intermediate step you may have some options to switch to smaller animals such as insects instead of larger animals. But as acceptance of insect food is much lower than vegan food, I see little sense in pursuing that strategy.
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I don’t think bad of people for being omnivores. That’s the traditional way how humans lived forever. People are used to consume animal products and it’s hard to break with habits. Not everyone has the mental capacity to do so, people have other priorities in life. That’s fine for me.
But if someone else is running around saying ‘consuming animal products is not problematic, it’s all about the rich!’ then that’s incorrect from my perspective and I want to point that out.
Yet still unwilling to blame the groups who literally destroy the world
I literally wrote in my initial post that ‘there are many good reasons to blame rich people’. The fact that many rich people have a negative impact on our society and planet, …
- does not mean that individual consumers are completely off the hook in all kinds of moral questions.
- that everything any rich person says is automatically wrong
Especially in a topic like veganism I can’t see an intrinsic motivation of ‘the rich elite’ to force animal products on the people. You can be rich by selling meat or you can be rich by selling tofu. Selling vegan alternatives at a large scale to the masses would probably even lead to higher profits as the production is cheaper.
allows you to live guilt free
Veganism isn’t about being morally inferior. A moral lifestyle has numerous aspects, veganism is just one aspect. Being a good person is not limited to veganism or trying to protect the environment in general. It’s not about rating people against each other. Yet, it’s absolutely fair to say from my perspective that veganism can do a lot of good for the world: reduce CO2 and methane emmissions, lower the risk of famines, reduce animal harm, reduce deforestation and land use, lower the risk of pandemics and resistent germs, get rid of the horrible working conditions for factory workers in the animal industry and many more.
All humans just going vegan at once is completely delusional. But every single person helps, even if it’s just lowering the consumption a bit helps.
And my point is that it is absolutely in the power of each individual to take these small steps. If you want it, no rich person can hinder you from that.
you are incapable of making reasonable arguments
Major parts of your post are personally attacking and insulting me. That’s not necessarily what I’d consider a healthy debate. But unfortunately it seems to be a very emotional topic I guess.
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If I stop eating meat will you force others to stop too?
I’m not forcing anyone to do anything. First I don’t want to do that and even if I wanted, I don’t have any power over people.
If you genuinely consider to stop or reduce eating meat, I’d highly appreciate that! :)
Absolutely. But that practical reality doesn’t substantiate the insufferable moral superiority vegans are addicted to.
Practical veganism doesn’t finger wag because practical veganism understands how unproductive that is.
The only serious vegans are the ones who advocate for lab cultured proteins. But those are few and far between.
Not even close. Dealing with the excess personal ambitions of the wealthy would do far more.
Unless being vegan would keep you from actually eating the rich, this point is utterly and completely irrelevant.
To illustrate, imagine some celebrity said “rape culture is bad, and everyone should work against it!”. Do I, as some average guy, get a pass if I talk about how “um akschually, Epstein Island, Trump, bla bla”?
Like, seriously, my INDIVIDUAL impact on womens liberation is exactly as big as your impact on animals rights. So do we both get to just not care, and sit on our lazy asses, because we can’t, on our own, change the world?
You people talk a big game about material reality, about systems, but you’ve turned “systems” into a near religious excuse for personal inaction. “The revolution” is the second coming, and all you have to do is believe. Not act, not make the world a better place, just preach.
Not really given the bold claim in the op title.
Can you do that?
Nobody can. We’re fucked.
So why are you even bringing it up then
To share the pain.
It’s actually called a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_cliché and you deploy it to avoid processing thoughts and feelings that are better socially for you to pretend you don’t understand. You’re afraid of abandoning or being abandoned by your tribe, so you have to do everything and anything to avoid thinking about the vast cruelty and needless violence that you are participating in every day.
That’s a ridiculous conclusion.
It might be wrong, but it’s certainly not ridiculous. Everyone ones it. EVERYONE does it. It’s the most basic human psychology. There’s nothing ridiculous about thinking you are doing it, when you are giving all the signs.
You forget. You’re a tourist here. You’ve never really even deeply thought about these subjects in your entire life. Meanwhile many of us have been here for more than a decade, and we’ve been seeing people exactly like you doing exactly what you are doing the whole time.
Fuck, we all used to BE you. We all used to do the exact same things, employ all the exact same psychological defense mechanisms. You have no idea how transparent you are right now.
Why come here of all places and argue from a place of ignorance about the effects of animal exploitation. Seriously, think about that. What are you doing here?
I can tell you. You’re coping with thoughts and feelings that you are not prepared to fully process, but which you also cannot put away.
Learned hopelessness. You do more for the rich by wanting something more equal but being too pathetic to even believe it’s possible than those who are entirely ignorant of our exploitation.
If you want to break this cycle you should start doing small things that make a difference. This will teach you change is possible, give you hope and make you more able to resist your oppression. Something like going vegan is a good place to start. A small change with a lot of impact.
Change happens all the time but its shaped by power, which the vast majority if individuals have very little of and seem to insist on never using. Collective empower is our only chance and everyone refuses to exercise it, at always have, so its really just the illusion of power.
Also, learned hopelessness comes from actual hopelessness. Just because you want to be hopeful doesn’t mean there is any hope, you’re just deluding yourself to protect your feelings.
So you’re a champion of collective power but don’t believe that the choices people make have any impact and thus individuals in a collective shouldn’t pursue change?
Maybe because no one is leading by example? You don’t even have to commit to veganism to help. Just trying to eat less meat adds up quickly, especially when you do it and encourage others to do the same. That is one of the many ways collective action can kick off.
I think he’s right. We should all change to a 100% Billionaire diet…
Sure, but what if we could fight billionaires in a ring?
Those are not mutually exclusive
Nice! Let’s do both!
Back in the 90s I calculated that the US could save the Amazon rainforest by cutting our meat consumption by 10% and legalizing hemp (not marijuana). I no longer have the math available but the gist of it was that a 10% decrease in beef cattle feed would cause a corresponding drop in demand for feed corn, and if that much cornfield land were converted to hemp (which would work agriculturally) and the hemp were used to make paper, demand to import pulp logs from SA would decrease enough to demotivate logging the rainforest - where most logs at the time were being harvested for pulp. As a side benefit, the paper would last a lot longer but wouldn’t be more expensive.
Took me a lot of time and effort to do the research for that. Dunno if it’s still valid in today’s economy.
I would love to see this data if you’re willing to do the research again! Much more likely to trust you, a slrpnk fellow, than Woody Harrelson
You can think of Woody Harrelson as a celebrity, but you can also think of him as a well-documented individual who has consistently gotten involved in contemporary social issues and has always come down on the right side of complex matters where there are a lot of public confusion. He’s an activist now, he doesn’t even perform anymore.
Here’s some 5 seconds of googling: https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food
thanks man I appreciate it! C:
And help poor Woody also
https://tcbmag.com/woody-harrelson-invests-in-wicked-kitchen/I’ve become a bit of a flexitarian now. Don’t cook chicken beef or pork at home now. If I cook anything it’s fish. Whenever we go out if there’s something meat on the menu that sounds great I’ll get it but eating vegetarian hasn’t been that hard at all. Hemp seed yogurt eggs tofu nutritional yeast. Pretty easy. Hope I see some health pay offs.
I’m quite similar but due to health reasons - I can no longer safely eat red meat of any kind soooo I don’t XD so by complete chance my diet is primarily vegetarian with some occasional chicken, turkey and fish. I’m also dairy free for the same reason. I actually really dislike chicken and turkey from a taste standpoint (and ethics standpoint) so would prefer fish but it’s so expensive ;-;
Even just switching from beef to chicken has s 4x reduction in CO2 costs and had less fat and calories.
heyy congrats on your journey !! if you decide to push through i hope it continues to go well ! 💪
The !climate@slrpnk.net mods disliked that as they were never ever serious about tackling climate change 🤪
Most environmentalists online, exactly like most leftists online, are focussed on purity of speech and moral grandstanding, not on any actual impact a person might have. Even though no individual can or should change anything, magically, a Collective will form, creating The Revolution, which will Eat the Rich and destroy the System, all without any of them having had to make material changes in their lives.
“Mods?” Looks like one guy. Shameful, @silence7@slrpnk.net
Has Woody Harrelson even gone vegan? Last I saw, he was promoting the astroturfed pseudo-regenerative cattle ranching stuff.
Anyway I can already hear the impending, “no ethical consumption under capitalism” nihilists on their way. To those who denigrate any lifestyle modifications as ways to try to make the world better: if individual change didn’t matter, there wouldn’t be a market for plant-based foods at all, and nor would there be Linux. If all you ever focus on is the bad stuff you wish would go away, then yeah all seems lost. But that’s not the big picture. Good is created, and good grows. But for that to keep happening, it needs to be chosen and promoted.
Maybe try going on a bike ride while you’re at it.
You make a great point. I am not vegan but I have a condition that makes me allergic to red meat and mammal products of any kind such as milk, cheese etc. I am extremely grateful for my oat milk and potato-based vegan cheeses.
-1 for not RTFA. Second sentence: “The actor and longtime vegan…”
Didn’t read the article til now, damn you caught me!
Still skeptical.
Multimillionaire tells you to not eat meat to reduce climate change
I MUST COMPLY RAAAAHH
