As a dad now with a trans son I so get it. I’m blessed in I know who and what I am. I will never “get” what’s going on in his head or understand what trans is or any of that shit. But I love him, I want him happy and I will defend whatever he decides to be until the ends of the world.
Note to everyone and self I use he/him because in my simple brain he has a dick he’s a boy. Like me he doesn’t give a shit because we joke about the old meme “I identify as an attack helicopter” and I tell people my pronouns are “dumb/ass” or if I’m being a dick “she/him”
Digressions aside. If it doesn’t hurt anyone, and it makes someone happy, just let them be happy.
I don’t know your kid or your relationship with them or anything, so I’m just speaking in generalities, but most trans people I know really appreciate being called by their preferred name and pronouns. If your kid is using certain pronouns with new people or with their friends that they are out to, it might be nice to give them a try. Maybe not, again I don’t know you both, but just because someone is willing to joke about pronouns doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t actually care about them. Seems like you really care for your kid and I’m sure that if they wanted to be referred to with new pronouns that you’d be able to figure it out. Wishing you both the best.
The most grounded response and thank you. I commented elsewhere but ultimately I’m big on providing the space to do what you feel is comfortable so in that I’m more of a watch and wait.
From someone that’s been there, try to work on that mental switch. Even if the kid sees you as an exception, and really doesn’t care if you don’t, it’s still a powerful thing to do it anyway. You can still crack jokes together and fuck around, but if you put in the effort to shift your language the rest of the time, it seriously uplifts someone that’s in the process of finding their path as their authentic self.
And yeah, it is true that a decent number of kids in particular (as opposed to folks that are transitioning as adults) don’t care about pronouns when their loved ones support them in every other way (or even just in most ways). They know some old fart has decades of brain patterns built up, and years of thinking of them as a given gender. They know it won’t happen overnight, and thus aren’t hurt by slips, or are hurt way less. But I’ve never met a trans kid that didn’t feel happy and loved by a close family member putting in the effort anyway.
I promise you, the worst that can happen from trying is you get razzed for fucking up
Points taken what I will say is pronouns aren’t top of mind with any of us. If anything I’m pretty big on using “buddy” which in this day and age is pretty gender neutral. Beyond that think of it as, he’s a kid, I’m providing the safe space for him to be able to advocate for himself. If he wants me to use pronouns I will, but he needs to raise it. Not because I don’t want to, but because he knows I love him unconditionally so he has an opportunity to show growth in himself and advocate that.
In all honesty he’s shown far more growth than I did at his age all things considered.
Yeah man you should really be using the pronouns your child wants you to use. I imagine that they have accepted that this is the best relationship they can have with you. They’re still your child and your unwavering support is important to building their self confidence regardless of whether they’re cisgender or transgender.
How can you be sure they don’t care? Could it be, instead, that they know it’ll just be a pain in the ass to get you to do what they want, so they don’t bother even if it’d make them happier? They’re appeasing you so they can still have a relationship with you. You are refusing to appease them. Your child sounds more mature than you do.
How can anyone be sure of anything outside of what their actions tell us?
You’re bang on my kid sounds more mature than I am but in fairness to me it’s a low fucking bar.
What I will impart is that when they told me about being trans it was a good month before they told their mom not because he knew I would be more accepting but because I genuinely do not give a shit. I will love you unconditionally. We joke in my house that unless you’re a furry I don’t care what you are (and then yes, I make it very clear even if you were a furry I would still love you but will judge you harshly).
I think the big problem here which came up elsewhere is twofold.
This conversation exists outside of all additional context of my life and my kids life. People are pontificating on something in isolation.
Online is not offline. People are assuming that what we are typing here is the reality when it isn’t.
I think you’re missing the point though. If you actually don’t give a fuck, and it would be something that they appreciate, why not change what you call them? Isn’t that the right thing to do? If it actually cost you something then fine, there’d be an argument to not do it. Also, if you cared about it then there’d be an argument to not do it. Since you’ve said you don’t care, why not just do it? If you can make your kid just a little happier, at no cost to yourself, why wouldn’t you take that opportunity?
I wish I could say you’re being selfish, but you aren’t even doing that. It doesn’t benefit you to not change. It’s just spite I guess. You think it effects who you are to be nice to your child in a way that doesn’t effect anything else.
Yeah, we don’t know what the reality of the situation is. We only know what you’ve said. What you’ve said though is uncomfortable to hear. I don’t like hearing about parents choosing to not do things that make their kid’s life a little easier for absolutely no reason. If you actually don’t care about what your child is called, and if you care about doing what’s right for your child, then change. It’s free, and I’m reasonable sure your child will appreciate it, probably more than you could realize. They obviously still want to be around you and don’t want to make you uncomfortable, so return the favor.
The only thing I’m going to pick at here more as food for thought. Talking with my psychologist this morning. I feel there is benefit to the fact that as example for me having ADHD as a kid life was tough and we had to learn how to manage because the world doesn’t give a shit. I firmly believe we lost that along the way.
Do not mistake my being tough with a lack of caring.
The question I would ask you. Were you trans would you rather learn to deal with ignorance and advocate for yourself with someone you know or trust or from the world which will fucking bury you if given the opportunity? Personally I’d choose the former.
Now all that said this is online conversation and in no way expresses the complexity of reality so please take that for what it’s worth. You may be assuming something that in no way matches reality.
I agree that we’ve lost some “education” in conflict handling. For example, I think people should get their asses kicked for doing things society doesn’t agree with, like neo-Nazis. That can’t really happen anymore because there’s too much surveillance, and it’s technically illegal. Things like the “no tolerance policy” have made this worse too, where defending yourself is the same as attacking someone.
On you’re question of learning to deal with ignorant assholes, no, I think I’d rather have parents that support me, because there’s already far too many ignorant assholes who will treat them poorly. There’s no need for a parent to add to that. They’ll learn that lesson soon enough, if they haven’t already. If they could choose one or the other, then sure, your option is better. They don’t though. They will be bullied and mistreated for it outside of the home. The least that could happen is for them to be able to come home and be welcomed for who they are without judgement.
I know it’s a tangent but one gripe I had this morning was due to society changing it is not more acceptable for me, a dude, to wear a dress to work than it is shorts on a hot day.
If I wear a dress everyone will ignore and at most talk under their breath because of a fear of not being inclusive or whatnot but if you wear shorts “oh that’s not corporate policy you can’t do that.”. It’s utter bullshit.
Regardless I bet we would agree on far more than we would disagree on and I do strongly agree a lot of the problems today are due to people not being beat up when they say racist/homophobic/hate speech.
How much effort does it take to not use he/him though? Are you sure they’re just saying they don’t care so you don’t feel bad about it?
I dunno, obviously I don’t know you or your kid and you seem to be handling it much better than many would… It just seems weird to be so ambivalent to something so fundamental about your child.
I’ve had a good number of trans people in my classes over the years. I’ve frankly been shocked by the number of people who do not care if you guess their gender correctly. Obviously it isn’t the norm, but they are out there.
I can’t speak for everyone, but in my experience I’ll not express anything externally when property/improperly gendered, but I’ll still feel happy/sad when it happens.
You’re saying you’ll defend whatever she decides to be, but I don’t think you accept it yourself; that’s why you’re still treating your daughter as if she was a boy. It’s perfectly possible this actually hurts her, but she doesn’t complain because it’s complicated to do so with your parents before adulthood, like it or not you’re still a figure of authority.
EDIT: to be clear. I’m saying it’s preferable to treat a trans child by the gender they identify themself with, than by the gender assigned to them by birth. Doubly so if you’re in a position of power over them, like a parent is.
I’m laughing that you’re making the decision that they want to be identified as a girl. The point you’re making is moot at this point but how you’re attempting to make it is ignorant AF.
You’re the one assuming shit here far more than I am and in fairness it’s because you know jack shit about me and my kid.
I am not deciding shit for anyone. I’m concluding your kid is most likely MtF, based on the infoyouprovided — “in my simple brain he has a dick he’s a boy” + usage of the word “trans”.
And, even in the chance my conclusion is incorrect (the kid is actually genderfluid, or non-binary, et cetera), my point still stands, even if you pretend it doesn’t dammit. You highlighted you use “he/him” because the kid has a dick, regardless of the kid’s identity, that’s an arsehole move, doubly so coming from a parent. The right approach would be to use the ones the kid chose.
You’re the one assuming shit here
Not really.
I’m laughing […] I find that funny.
Said Egnatius the Celtiberian.
EDIT: I usually don’t bring shit from the modlog up, because it’s often a diversion tactic. However, in this case, it’s 100% relevant: the user above defends physical violence against children. In his own words, “I’m saying this with all the honesty. We need to start beating our kids again.”
It explains a lot, doesn’t it? If a person doesn’t get why physical abuse against kids is bad, the idea of respecting someone else’s choices is a bit too complex for that person.
He’s actually stated he’s more asexual than anything but no, your point doesn’t stand if anything you’re highlighting ignorance from the other side.
That said you’re not looking to discuss you’re looking to scream from your soapbox and that I have neither the time nor the give a shit to hear it.
Edit - also takes a real terminally online twat to 1. Believe a post like it’s the gospel truth and 2. Take the time to dig through someone’s post history for it.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding something but being asexual doesn’t have anything to do with being trans. You can have a different gender than the one you were assigned at birth and not be sexually attracted to other people. Being trans doesn’t influence the people you are attracted to
As a dad now with a trans son I so get it. I’m blessed in I know who and what I am. I will never “get” what’s going on in his head or understand what trans is or any of that shit. But I love him, I want him happy and I will defend whatever he decides to be until the ends of the world.
Note to everyone and self I use he/him because in my simple brain he has a dick he’s a boy. Like me he doesn’t give a shit because we joke about the old meme “I identify as an attack helicopter” and I tell people my pronouns are “dumb/ass” or if I’m being a dick “she/him”
Digressions aside. If it doesn’t hurt anyone, and it makes someone happy, just let them be happy.
I don’t know your kid or your relationship with them or anything, so I’m just speaking in generalities, but most trans people I know really appreciate being called by their preferred name and pronouns. If your kid is using certain pronouns with new people or with their friends that they are out to, it might be nice to give them a try. Maybe not, again I don’t know you both, but just because someone is willing to joke about pronouns doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t actually care about them. Seems like you really care for your kid and I’m sure that if they wanted to be referred to with new pronouns that you’d be able to figure it out. Wishing you both the best.
The most grounded response and thank you. I commented elsewhere but ultimately I’m big on providing the space to do what you feel is comfortable so in that I’m more of a watch and wait.
From someone that’s been there, try to work on that mental switch. Even if the kid sees you as an exception, and really doesn’t care if you don’t, it’s still a powerful thing to do it anyway. You can still crack jokes together and fuck around, but if you put in the effort to shift your language the rest of the time, it seriously uplifts someone that’s in the process of finding their path as their authentic self.
And yeah, it is true that a decent number of kids in particular (as opposed to folks that are transitioning as adults) don’t care about pronouns when their loved ones support them in every other way (or even just in most ways). They know some old fart has decades of brain patterns built up, and years of thinking of them as a given gender. They know it won’t happen overnight, and thus aren’t hurt by slips, or are hurt way less. But I’ve never met a trans kid that didn’t feel happy and loved by a close family member putting in the effort anyway.
I promise you, the worst that can happen from trying is you get razzed for fucking up
Points taken what I will say is pronouns aren’t top of mind with any of us. If anything I’m pretty big on using “buddy” which in this day and age is pretty gender neutral. Beyond that think of it as, he’s a kid, I’m providing the safe space for him to be able to advocate for himself. If he wants me to use pronouns I will, but he needs to raise it. Not because I don’t want to, but because he knows I love him unconditionally so he has an opportunity to show growth in himself and advocate that.
In all honesty he’s shown far more growth than I did at his age all things considered.
You claim apathy, but you put more effort defending yourself then just being better toward you child.
I wont claim to know if it bothers your child to ‘joke’ about it. But have you ever asked?
Yeah man you should really be using the pronouns your child wants you to use. I imagine that they have accepted that this is the best relationship they can have with you. They’re still your child and your unwavering support is important to building their self confidence regardless of whether they’re cisgender or transgender.
How can you be sure they don’t care? Could it be, instead, that they know it’ll just be a pain in the ass to get you to do what they want, so they don’t bother even if it’d make them happier? They’re appeasing you so they can still have a relationship with you. You are refusing to appease them. Your child sounds more mature than you do.
How can anyone be sure of anything outside of what their actions tell us?
You’re bang on my kid sounds more mature than I am but in fairness to me it’s a low fucking bar.
What I will impart is that when they told me about being trans it was a good month before they told their mom not because he knew I would be more accepting but because I genuinely do not give a shit. I will love you unconditionally. We joke in my house that unless you’re a furry I don’t care what you are (and then yes, I make it very clear even if you were a furry I would still love you but will judge you harshly).
I think the big problem here which came up elsewhere is twofold.
This conversation exists outside of all additional context of my life and my kids life. People are pontificating on something in isolation.
Online is not offline. People are assuming that what we are typing here is the reality when it isn’t.
I think you’re missing the point though. If you actually don’t give a fuck, and it would be something that they appreciate, why not change what you call them? Isn’t that the right thing to do? If it actually cost you something then fine, there’d be an argument to not do it. Also, if you cared about it then there’d be an argument to not do it. Since you’ve said you don’t care, why not just do it? If you can make your kid just a little happier, at no cost to yourself, why wouldn’t you take that opportunity?
I wish I could say you’re being selfish, but you aren’t even doing that. It doesn’t benefit you to not change. It’s just spite I guess. You think it effects who you are to be nice to your child in a way that doesn’t effect anything else.
Yeah, we don’t know what the reality of the situation is. We only know what you’ve said. What you’ve said though is uncomfortable to hear. I don’t like hearing about parents choosing to not do things that make their kid’s life a little easier for absolutely no reason. If you actually don’t care about what your child is called, and if you care about doing what’s right for your child, then change. It’s free, and I’m reasonable sure your child will appreciate it, probably more than you could realize. They obviously still want to be around you and don’t want to make you uncomfortable, so return the favor.
The only thing I’m going to pick at here more as food for thought. Talking with my psychologist this morning. I feel there is benefit to the fact that as example for me having ADHD as a kid life was tough and we had to learn how to manage because the world doesn’t give a shit. I firmly believe we lost that along the way.
Do not mistake my being tough with a lack of caring.
The question I would ask you. Were you trans would you rather learn to deal with ignorance and advocate for yourself with someone you know or trust or from the world which will fucking bury you if given the opportunity? Personally I’d choose the former.
Now all that said this is online conversation and in no way expresses the complexity of reality so please take that for what it’s worth. You may be assuming something that in no way matches reality.
I agree that we’ve lost some “education” in conflict handling. For example, I think people should get their asses kicked for doing things society doesn’t agree with, like neo-Nazis. That can’t really happen anymore because there’s too much surveillance, and it’s technically illegal. Things like the “no tolerance policy” have made this worse too, where defending yourself is the same as attacking someone.
On you’re question of learning to deal with ignorant assholes, no, I think I’d rather have parents that support me, because there’s already far too many ignorant assholes who will treat them poorly. There’s no need for a parent to add to that. They’ll learn that lesson soon enough, if they haven’t already. If they could choose one or the other, then sure, your option is better. They don’t though. They will be bullied and mistreated for it outside of the home. The least that could happen is for them to be able to come home and be welcomed for who they are without judgement.
I know it’s a tangent but one gripe I had this morning was due to society changing it is not more acceptable for me, a dude, to wear a dress to work than it is shorts on a hot day.
If I wear a dress everyone will ignore and at most talk under their breath because of a fear of not being inclusive or whatnot but if you wear shorts “oh that’s not corporate policy you can’t do that.”. It’s utter bullshit.
Regardless I bet we would agree on far more than we would disagree on and I do strongly agree a lot of the problems today are due to people not being beat up when they say racist/homophobic/hate speech.
How much effort does it take to not use he/him though? Are you sure they’re just saying they don’t care so you don’t feel bad about it?
I dunno, obviously I don’t know you or your kid and you seem to be handling it much better than many would… It just seems weird to be so ambivalent to something so fundamental about your child.
I’ve had a good number of trans people in my classes over the years. I’ve frankly been shocked by the number of people who do not care if you guess their gender correctly. Obviously it isn’t the norm, but they are out there.
I can’t speak for everyone, but in my experience I’ll not express anything externally when property/improperly gendered, but I’ll still feel happy/sad when it happens.
Fair enough! I personally try to stick to preferred names and pronouns, but to err is human and I do make mistakes pretty often.
Yeah, and I don’t think any reasonable person will hold a grudge against a mistake.
Also worth noting especially with younger people they can’t disassociate online with offline.
…I’ll be honest.
You’re saying you’ll defend whatever she decides to be, but I don’t think you accept it yourself; that’s why you’re still treating your daughter as if she was a boy. It’s perfectly possible this actually hurts her, but she doesn’t complain because it’s complicated to do so with your parents before adulthood, like it or not you’re still a figure of authority.
EDIT: to be clear. I’m saying it’s preferable to treat a trans child by the gender they identify themself with, than by the gender assigned to them by birth. Doubly so if you’re in a position of power over them, like a parent is.
I’m laughing that you’re making the decision that they want to be identified as a girl. The point you’re making is moot at this point but how you’re attempting to make it is ignorant AF.
You’re the one assuming shit here far more than I am and in fairness it’s because you know jack shit about me and my kid.
Anyways, I find that funny.
I am not deciding shit for anyone. I’m concluding your kid is most likely MtF, based on the info you provided — “in my simple brain he has a dick he’s a boy” + usage of the word “trans”.
And, even in the chance my conclusion is incorrect (the kid is actually genderfluid, or non-binary, et cetera), my point still stands, even if you pretend it doesn’t dammit. You highlighted you use “he/him” because the kid has a dick, regardless of the kid’s identity, that’s an arsehole move, doubly so coming from a parent. The right approach would be to use the ones the kid chose.
Not really.
Said Egnatius the Celtiberian.
EDIT: I usually don’t bring shit from the modlog up, because it’s often a diversion tactic. However, in this case, it’s 100% relevant: the user above defends physical violence against children. In his own words, “I’m saying this with all the honesty. We need to start beating our kids again.”
It explains a lot, doesn’t it? If a person doesn’t get why physical abuse against kids is bad, the idea of respecting someone else’s choices is a bit too complex for that person.
He’s actually stated he’s more asexual than anything but no, your point doesn’t stand if anything you’re highlighting ignorance from the other side.
That said you’re not looking to discuss you’re looking to scream from your soapbox and that I have neither the time nor the give a shit to hear it.
Edit - also takes a real terminally online twat to 1. Believe a post like it’s the gospel truth and 2. Take the time to dig through someone’s post history for it.
You’re a trip brother. Get outside.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding something but being asexual doesn’t have anything to do with being trans. You can have a different gender than the one you were assigned at birth and not be sexually attracted to other people. Being trans doesn’t influence the people you are attracted to