They’ll talk for half an hour about university reform but the moment you ask “who owns the coal mines” or “where does the lithium come from” they say they haven’t thought about it then they get mad at me when I say the Nordic model is fascist

I can bait the ADHD ones into reading theory by simply using enticing vocab words but idk how to deal with everyone else

  • spectre [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
    35·
    15 days ago

    I say the Nordic model is fascist

    In this case: don’t tell, show. People without a theoretical or historical framework are not going to be receptive to that sort of description (even if correct).

    It’s more difficult to break down why it isn’t really part of the socialist movement, but it is more effective propaganda to use it as a teaching moment, including examples of how thhey have reverted to neoliberalism (and racism) after the fall of the USSR.

    I also offer some grace and suggest that:

    if we could snap our fingers and have Nordic model everywhere tomorrow, then most socialists wouldn’t have a major issue with that. The living conditions are largely very good!

    The problem is that it is still built on exploitation of the global south, so by that model there must always be an exploitable group of people or land to sustain it. It also preserves the economic relations of capitalism at the core of their economy. This will always lead to capitalists gathering power for themselves and hollowing out the state/social institutions for their own profit. You already see this happening in Sweden in the last decade…

    • Ekranoplane [none/use name]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
      13·
      15 days ago

      That seems like two different angles of attack, like should I focus on the internal failings of neoliberalism or the external failings of imperialism? I feel like imperialism is the primary contradiction and must be centered or you end up with Western Marxists and National Bolsheviks. I guess that does ask people to do a complete 180 of their worldview up front, the conversation might last longer if I try to lead them through neoliberalism or whatever. But young people are very online and likely to start talking about Georgism or something and then you get bogged down in weird internet fringe theories.

      • hotcouchguy [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        17·
        15 days ago

        In general my approach would be to start where they’re at, find those areas where you mostly agree, but not completely, and keep a long-term dialogue open. Anyone you convince in one conversation is going to be un-convinced by their next conversation with some crank or whatever. They need to do a certain amount of intellectual work for themselves, you should be encouraging that instead of giving ready-made answers.

        I think it also really depends on who you’re talking to and what the context is. Is this someone you work with in local activism? A friend of a friend? Someone you want to recruit to your org? Someone you literally just met and want to figure out their current politics?

      • spectre [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        8·
        15 days ago

        It is two angles of attack, and it can get convoluted. I guess my goal is to throw out a couple of “bumpers” on the Nordic model like I pointed out above, and then get back to a topic that we have common ground on. Kinda like:

        “yeah I agree that they have a good quality of life under the Nordic model, it’s similar to my vision for what I want for everyone. I have concerns [here] and [here]. I track [other topic] more closely because…” [now you’ve redirected]

        You can’t demolish somebody’s worldview, they’ll need to do that themselves. Your best shot is to open the doors and windows for them to “look outside” and figure it out for themselves. This can take many conversations over many months (depends on their class standing, intellectual aptitude, etc…).