Been riding my 28 mph unlocked e-bike for years. And yet it’s still unnerving when I reach that speed, and that’s riding alone on an empty greenway. IMO, even 25 mph is too fast for bike paths or shared use paths that aren’t basically empty.
The situation has degraded even in the short time I’ve had my bike. I have to pedal to go fast and it requires sustained exertion to max it out and keep it maxed, so typically I’m not riding at full speed. When I slow down I have to pedal even harder to accelerate up to speed again. So you would think that would encourage dangerous behavior because the cyclist is incentivized not to slow down.
But now I’m seeing scooters and e-bikes where they’re not pedaling at all. They’re just holding down a throttle and they seem to have no concept of braking.
The throttle jockeys wouldn’t have to put any effort in at all when they slow down, yet they never do, while those of us actually pedaling do slow down. They also are rather unfriendly as far as a typical bicyclist will wave at you or nod their head or even say hello sometimes, but not with that crowd. They’re typically zoned out with earbuds or whatever.
To me they’re a different type of rider and they don’t seem to have any desire to adopt bicycle culture or norms. I’d imagine they are responsible for most of the dangerous behavior.
I have also been riding 28mph unlocked for years, but I’ve gone through a few different E-bike models in the meantime.
The current one limits itself to my jurisdiction’s law (Class 3 defined as 28mph pedal only, no throttle assistance allowed. Class 2 defined as up to 20mph assist with either pedaling or throttle).
Class toggle is achieved via a proprietary app, and it will adjust to whatever the last polled laws of the jurisdiction of the Bike’s currently marked GPS location.
Ergo, should my legislature do any thoughtless changes in either direction, my life will be immediately impacted and the product I already paid several thousand dollars for, altered.
So, I like to make sure there’s nuance in these type of discussions, because everyone has anecdotes to share, but they always seem to be focused into one specific class of scenarios and further discussion tends to focus on sharing the same initial scenario.
I do not disagree that 25Mph is too fast for bike paths or shared used paths that aren’t basically empty. It absolutely is.
I also do not disagree that there is a new, rising type of rider best characterized by suicidal indifference to their surroundings.
But every E-bike comes with many a knob and toggle.
I go everywhere by E-bike, including work commuting. Throughout my route I must pass through a mixture of environments: Shared pedestrian/bike path, road bike lanes (painted lol), woodsy pedestrian trails, and actual shared with car traffic road usage.
My E-bike has a torque sensor, gyro for hill boosting, and a very powerful and responsive motor. It also weighs almost 100 lbs.
It can accelerate to its max speed within 3 seconds, and is trivial to maintain there at max assist settings.
So what do I do when I am headed towards the shared paths when coming off a big boy road?
I turn the knob that was always right next to my thumb, and decrease the assistance level down to where it barely provides any, and I pedal along at 5-8mph (within fast walk range, slower than a jog) as I assess the situation ahead of me.
Do I then shoot off at 28 mph if the shared path is empty? Of course not that’s insane, and there’s corners to turn where someone might be coming. I use judgement.
Meanwhile, if you want to experience unnerves at 28mph from the other direction, go ride Forester’s hell hole with the cars, as they zoom past you going 35-40mph in the 25mph road you specifically route through because theoretically we can all go the same legal speed.
Regarding Throttles: I got a rearhub drive E-bike. If I’m in class 2 and my chain slips in the middle of a pedestrian path, I can throttle gently towards a safe stop location.
How unnerving do you suppose it is when the chain slips in class 3 where my throttle is arbitrarily software disabled because a chamber full of people who can drive cars made a decision for me, and I’m stuck without drivetrain power in traffic where the turn lane set up necessitates that I be in the goddamn middle instead of the right shoulder?
We need these laws to address the rule breakers and incentivize companies to design safer, more intuitive devices.
Not arbitrarily limit their usefulness as a mobility replacement that can fulfill multiple roles.
Multiple straw man arguments and baseless accusations in your response, unfortunately. To set the record straight: I am constantly looking out for debris, obstacles and other people sharing the routes I’m on and adjust my speed according to the situation to maintain a safe environment for all. I spend a lot of time planning out routes to improve the safety of my ride. I didn’t request any arbitrary restrictions, computerized or otherwise, or even request any laws. I also did not state that I “shoot off at 28 mph if the shared path is empty”. It’s up to me and all of us to follow the law and ride safely.
Also have a torque sensor. I ride mainly for exercise so I stay in minimum pedal assist or even turn off assist sometimes.
I do not use my throttle at all and removed it. I had hit it accidentally a couple times, and simply by preemptively downshifting I could accelerate faster from a stop without the throttle than with it. So I found my throttle entirely useless, or even potentially dangerous due to the accidental taps of it, and removed it. When it was installed it would accelerate the bike up to 20 mph even in class 3 mode, which might have been a violation. The way I read it the throttle should have been completely disabled in class 3 mode.
Your bike software indeed sounds very scary and I’m glad that mine does not have the ability to impose such restrictions. If I felt that my bike’s software was putting me in danger then I’d sell it and get something else. But that’s just me.
Meanwhile UK is the other way round, limits are so low that legal ones are almost useless for a healthy adult to have much reason to bother with.
E-trikes are useful for elderly or disabled users, so at least there is some use. But otherwise you pretty much need an illegal one for it to be worth bothering with.
One idea I have heard that sounds interesting is to limit the power OR top speed, rather than both. So you could either have +250w all the time regardless of speed, or as big a motor as you like but always limited to 25kmh. The bigger motor can be useful for steep hills or heavy cargo bikes, small motor at any speed is useful for commuters who would already be cycling at the current cut off speed limit.
As you mention the motor is great for hills and weight, like my heavy chain and not-so-Litelok. It’s also good for wind.
I was looking around a city in France (forgot which one, but not Paris) on street view and was noticing that there were not really any bike lanes, hardly even any painted on. Bicycles were mixed in with the traffic on the street. Seemed really scary! And then I noticed the speed limit was 30 kph (~18 mph). And suddenly it all made sense and I was jealous. Around town I have to ride all these crazy routes through residential areas and such in hopes of a little safety, often doubling (or more) the distance I have to ride to get somewhere. Would gladly have an 18 mph speed limit if I could ride on safer streets and just go directly there, it’d be much faster. Although, from what I’ve read, 30 kph isn’t universal in France, as the standard seems to be 50 kph (which is still only 31 mph) and I’d imagine those areas probably do have bike lanes.
I experience the same problem in the Netherlands, and I’ve seen it close up in France and Germany as well.
Those throttle-only capable things need to go or be regulated like ICE scooters. They are ruining it for all of us. But, the cops have only so many resources and, at least here, not ACAB (probably most given the chance , but certainly not all as in the Anglophone sphere).
Been riding my 28 mph unlocked e-bike for years.
…
I have to pedal to go fast…I wouldn’t call that “unlocked,” I’d call that “switched to Class 3 mode.” Yours sounds like it’s still a legal e-bike, which makes it categorically different from the
“fast e-bikes”illegal e-motorcycles that are actually causing all the problems.I’m assuming you’re just being pedantic? It’s Class 2 by default and you can unlock class 3 mode in the settings by going above 20 mph. I believe it even prompted me for confirmation but it’s been years.
How big is your assist motor?
I have a class 3 cargo bike with a 750w hub motor and 0 through 5 for “assist level”. At level 5 it accelerates as fast as a car and holds 28mph with minimal exertion on my part. Level 5 is only used in traffic: level 1-2 is “rides like a regular bike” and 3-4 are for heavy cargo, head winds, or nasty hill climbs.
500 W sustained, 750 W peak. By default it’s class 2 and limited to 20 mph (which is what the label on the stem says). I typically ride between around 18 and 22 mph. Only really go above that on flat or slightly downhill sections, where the motor isn’t really as needed anyhow. I ride on assist level 1 (minimum), although sometimes I’ll switch to 0 (no motor assistance) on a downhill to give myself a little more exercise.
Been riding my 28 mph unlocked e-bike for years. And yet it’s still unnerving when I reach that speed, and that’s riding alone on an empty greenway.
I go 28 mph all the time and it feels slow as shit
THEY ARE NOT “FAST E-BIKES.” E-BIKES ARE NOT FAST, BY DEFINITION. ANY BIKE THAT IS FAST IS CATEGORICALLY SOMETHING OTHER THAN AN E-BIKE, NAMELY, AN ILLEGAL E-MOTORCYCLE.
Actual e-bikes are being made illegal for shit they did not do because the powers that be cannot be bothered to understand the difference.
It is fucking despicable that even a publication like Electrek is contributing to the confusion with a shitty headline like that!
At what point are they just motorcycles
Time to reclassify the definition of motorcycle. Can’t be based on engine size anymore it needs to be based on speed capability. Same with road cars, if it can go 0-60 in 5 seconds its a sports car and should be taxed and insured based on that.
SUV classifications need unfucking too, broken since the start
A lot of states have already done this. In mine it can’t be registered as a moped if its motor is capable of above a certain wattage output.
That’s not a great way to do it either though. A couple of issues off the top of my head -
The 1st issue is peak vs continuous wattage. A lot of people - ie the ones who will be handing out fines/confiscating the ebike ( or even registering it) won’t know the difference and trying to get manufactures to standardize labeling to clearly show continuous vs peak wouldn’t solve that even if if they did standardize.
The 2nd is if you need an ebike in an area with steep hills you need more wattage to get up them.
The biggest issue is a lot of ebike speed limiters are easily bypassed right in the settings so any Joe schmoe can go faster than is safe right out the box. that is what really needs to be fixed.
Fair point, but those caveats do run parallel with existing ones for the ICE definition of a moped. There are 50cc sport bikes that will do 70 mph. Ebikes are just less understood by the law because they’re new and government is slow.
In the EU: as soon as they have a throttle, or if they provide power at speeds above 25 km/h
So as soon as they are actually useful… I can already cycle at or above 25kmh with a mid range hybrid/trekking bike, or budget by US standards.
The bikes aren’t providing the power, you are
Then what is the point of it?
Not with headwind or up a hill you can’t.
Its rare to have a significant enough headwind to matter, its as flat as the Netherlands here.
Pretty sure the groups I see on high end road bikes probably could still do that speed up hill too, they are fucking quick.
25,kmh is the minimum speed of an ebike. You won’t sustain that on a bicycle. The average speed on the tour de France is 27 kmh.
The Tour de France includes mountain climbs and riding for the whole day, my commute to work is 20 mins along an old railway. Here 25kmh is the maximum speed an ebike can go before the motor becomes dead weight.
In the EU they are also limited to 250W.
At least in my jurisdiction, if it has an external shifter of some kind (manual transmission or manually operated clutch), an engine of over 50ccs displacement, or a top speed over 30mph on level ground is a motorcycle. A one-speed or fully automatic transmission, 49cc or less displacement, and 30mph top speed, it’s a moped.
A lot of e-bikes should be regulated as mopeds and driven on the street like any other motor vehicle, not mixed with pedestrian traffic. I’m not even convinced about “pedal assist.”
Could be pretty interested in easier access to an electric moped at ebike prices. Used to ride a 50cc.
Equip them with lights and require a driver’s license for them and I’m fine with that. Even include pedals.
Yeah that is what a 50cc bike requires. Not sure if lights are strictly required to ride it during the day but not seen one without, obviously required at night.
I’ve been to NYC. Once they’ve dealt with the much larger problem they have with cars, maybe it will then make sense to “crack down on e-bikes.”
You can do both. At the same time.
Nononono this is number 543654 on our list. Currently we are all required to concentrate on (checks notes) deforestation in Brazil.
No. To fix the car problem, biking needs to be attractive, and fast e-bikes ruin bike safety for regular bikers. This is at least my experience in Amsterdam (Holland), the so-called bike city of the world
Normally I’d be sympathetic to this view, but dealing with misclassified motorcycles at the same time as you deal with cars is not a problem I think
Dont understand the downvotes. You’re right.
I had a negative impulse because it initially read as “I was there once but I have wisdom on the topic”. It sounds like they’re weighing in on something they don’t have lived experience with.
Also, NYC is one of very few cities in the US that supports a car-free life
There are a lot of people in New York. I’d like to imagine those downvotes coming from some of them resenting an outsider pointing out that their beloved city is only slightly less fucked up by automobiles than every other city in America.
My e-scooter is limited to 32km/h and that’s frankly more than fast enough imo. It feels a whole lot faster when there’s nothing separating me from my surroundings. A crash at that speed could already injure me a lot and I wear protective equipment while doing so, and I see most people going without even a helmet while riding the same scooter as mine. No brain within those skulls to protect, I guess.
I live in the GTA. This shit along with motorized scooters needs to be licensed and on the fucking road. I run. I hate that the trails used to have walkers, runners and pedal bikes and no we have fuckwads in motorized vehicles endangering people on pedestrian paths.
