• tymon
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    15810 months ago

    the whole de-federating thing is seriously turning me off to the whole concept of lemmy, it’s like little dictators with their sceptres cutting off entire communities from each other. it’s a major flaw and I hope it gets addressed as lemmy/fediverse evolves, or else it’s not going to work

      • @Thorny_Thicket@sopuli.xyz
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        3910 months ago

        (e.g. if a server full of nazis appears, we want it to be defederated immediately).

        This seems obvious to everyone else, but not to me. Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?

        I’m extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.

        • @mate_classic@feddit.de
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          5210 months ago

          Authority deciding what you see? You mean like Reddit does? With Lemmy you can always change servers, heck, even set up your own server with your own rules.

          • @Cameli_Hostis@lemmy.world
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            310 months ago

            Yes, exactly like Reddit does. How does a federated system manage when everyone is required to run their own server to avoid censorship?

            • @mate_classic@feddit.de
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              3810 months ago

              Not everyone is required to do so. You just need to find a server that aligns with your values. Communities always censor content, one way or another. Call it moderation. Otherwise, you end up a piling piece of burning trash.

        • @geissi@feddit.de
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          4210 months ago

          The problem for those operating a Lemmy instance is that they are hosting copies of the content of all federated instances.
          So if one instance is filled with illegal content, the admins of all federated instances must remove it on their instances to avoid law enforcement kicking down their doors.

          If there is too much illegal content on one instance to effectively moderate manually, defederation is the solution.

          This is beside the fact, that some might have their own additional non-legally mandated requirements for content they host on their platform.

          • Grander
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            210 months ago

            The problem for those operating a Lemmy instance is that they are hosting copies of the content of all federated instances.
            If that’s genuinely the way it works, it seems really dumb.

              • Grander
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                10 months ago

                Fetch data from instances you’re trying to access, rather than hosting everything on all servers. That seems like a quick way to get half the fediverse defederated from each other.

                • @Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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                  210 months ago

                  That’s exactly what happens. But you have to store the fetched data on your instance if you want to display it there.

        • @aski3252@lemmy.world
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          3910 months ago

          Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?

          Who would be “dealing with them one by one”? People seem to keep forgetting that lemmy, both the code and the infraatructure, is developed and maintained by hobbyists, not by a company.

          I’m extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.

          You should really think about this, in my opinion, entiteled attitude… You are not the one paying for the server, you are not the one running the server you are certainly not the one who will have to deal with potential legal actions if illegal shit is going on on your instance…

          You are not entiteled to any of this… You don’t have to pay in any way for any of it and lemmy admins don’t earn any money from you…

          Imagine not only getting into trouble for a hobby, but have random people complain about “authority” because you don’t want to/can’t deal with potentially illegal shit on your server…

          If you are so concerned about “authority” and about “what you see on your feed”, start your own server and federate with whoever you want, or start a server that is collectively owned and controlled by it’s users or something like that… You can very very easily do that…

            • @aski3252@lemmy.world
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              910 months ago

              What exactly is the reason? That Nazis are not allowed? You seriously think not allowing Nazis on the platform will kill it?

            • @r_ffer23@sh.itjust.works
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              210 months ago

              I’m worried about that. And every time, they either mention nazis as an excuse, or suggest creating your own instance. I think fragmentation of users and content is only going to promote centralized platforms.

            • @aski3252@lemmy.world
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              410 months ago

              Spreading Nazi propaganda is illegal in some countries… The amount of moderation necessary would be unsustainable. And Nazis tend to propagate violence anyway, which is illegal in most places.

              And why is it so important to allow Nazis to “share their views” on your platform anyway? What possible benefit could this bring to a platform?

        • @thoro@lemmy.ml
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          10 months ago

          If you don’t want someone to decide who you can connect with, you can spin your own instance. Otherwise every instance has admins that aren’t you

          • @Cameli_Hostis@lemmy.world
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            1210 months ago

            Everyone here says to run your own server, as if that’s the mindset that’s going to bring in users and increase the popularity of federation. A little short-sighted.

            • @Polpota@lemmy.world
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              1910 months ago

              I don’t think the goal is to increase the popularity at the moment. I think it’s manage the chaos. The fediverse has had a massive increase over the past few days and you kind of need to use the emergency tools that are part of federations to manage that growth.

              I mean I’m just one person but I’m here to stay and if it shrinks or grows I don’t really care I just know I don’t want to go back to Reddit. I also like the ability to defederate as I’ve seen that reddit has had a long history of allowing bad actors to go untouched because they’ve never broken an actual rule.

              • @Cameli_Hostis@lemmy.world
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                410 months ago

                Now imagine that chaos, but everyone is running their own server. There are already posts and replies that won’t accept my votes.

                Who’s a bad actor? Liberals? Conservatives? Who gets to decide who the bad actor is?

                Lemmy needs to allow Server-managers to defederate other servers due to obviously illegal material. And Lemmy needs to allow Users to block or ignore servers just due to any number of reasons. But the decision should be left to the user.

                I’m 100% anti-censorship, and if a Server is going to be run that way there needs to be a way for existing users and new users to know that. And that’s the problem because a lot of new users are already stressed at picking a server.

                • @Polpota@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  Isn’t that a bit of hyperbole? If it was turning into what you said we’d be seeing a far greater amount of servers than we are.

                  The point of the fediverse is decentralization. That means if you have a predominant rigid viewpoint you can find an instance that shares that view. I don’t think at the current state of development that the fediverse can have a dominating instance that connects everything. It’s up to you to create a community you feel is missing on the instance you’ve settled in if no other federated instances have that community.

                  We’ve proven through Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter that we suck at communicating across groups on social media and are more interested in insulting whoever disagrees with us than communicatimg effectively.

                  That being said the Fediverse is young. Things aren’t perfect. It’s still less censored than almost any other social media platforms aside from 4chan and I’d urge you to use that if you are looking for anti-censorship.

                  For myself, I’ve picked out a dozen instances and I drift between them all while I figure this out. I treat it just like my half dozen alt accounts I had on RiF.

                • @jerkface@lemmy.ca
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                  910 months ago

                  There’s a big difference between opposing censorship and insisting that private individuals must platform whatever speech you say they should. The difference is so great it is hard to believe you are arguing in good faith.

            • @jerkface@lemmy.ca
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              1310 months ago

              No, they say that IF you want to have control over what instances yours federates with, then fucking put up, pay for the server, and make those decisions. Otherwise, pay an admin to do it for you, or be happy with what you get.

          • @Thorny_Thicket@sopuli.xyz
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            710 months ago

            I don’t think that setting up my own instance is as easy as you make it sound to be and that’s besides the point anyways

        • JadedIdealist
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          3310 months ago

          No one is stopping you from joining a server full of Nazis.
          Those openly avocating violence and cruelty towards others who are being neither violent or cruel aren’t “just another reasonable point of view that deserves to be heard”

          • Arcaneslime
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            10 months ago

            Not contributing to the debate necessarily, I’d just like to take a moment to say:

            Tbf, if you don’t like “Those openly avocating violence and cruelty towards others who are being neither violent or cruel,” then you’ll want to be on an instance that defederates lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. Before the reddit exodus this place was almost entirely genocide denialiasts who support Cuba, China, Russia (incl. the current invasion and simping for the USSR), and who want to literally murder all small business owners and landlords even if they only rent out their spare room or an old townhouse from before they got married for some extra income to help pay for meds in retirement, but no matter, “bourgeoisie.”

            The only reason they aren’t so prominent today is the flood drowned them out a bit, they’re still very much here, and they’re no better than the Nazis, and the kicker is they both think they’re the good guys lol.

            Edit: Hehe downvotes mean nothing here, but I can see I upset a few of those genocide denialists and that makes me happy.

        • @Tvkan@feddit.de
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          3010 months ago
          1. Why would anyone want to stay connected to a Nazi community, except for the obvious reasons?

          2. Nothing prevents people from just creating new accounts on another instance of lemmy - ban evasion is trivial.

          If you’re uncomfortable with this feel free to set up your own server.

          • @Cameli_Hostis@lemmy.world
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            710 months ago

            Nazis aren’t the point. Censorship is. Hard to see how a community that requires an individual federated server for everyone to avoid censorship is going to eventually come close to the popularity of Reddit.

          • @Taxxor@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            Why would anyone want to stay connected to a Nazi community, except for the obvious reasons?

            Besides that Nazis were just one extreme example, even there you can make the case that not everything people there care about is nazi stuff.
            It’s like looking at a specifically Christian instance you wouldn’t expect their users to only ever post or comment about God or Jesus.
            Users of such an instance can very well comment on instances like gaming or technology that have nothing to do with their particular instance world view and you wouldn’t know they are nazis and it also wouldn’t matter, instead their comments would benefit the thread just as much as any other comments.

            By defederating the instance, you’ll also block interactions like this.

            Lets take a tech community on a regular instance as an example. I make a post because I have a problem that needs quick help. Should I care if a person commenting and offering me a solution to my issue could potentially be a nazi because he is a member of Instance that is known for nazis? No because that has nothing to do with the thread. If he can help my with my problem I would want to see his post.

            • @Tvkan@feddit.de
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              310 months ago

              Should I care if a person commenting and offering me a solution to my issue could potentially be a nazi because he is a member of Instance that is known for nazis?

              I think it’s generally a good idea to avoid interactions with people who literally want to commit genocide. I’m willing to risk having to wait five minutes longer for assistance with my computer problem.

            • Catweazle
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              110 months ago

              @Taxxor @Tvkan, No, there are principles that cannot be crossed due to ethics, at least for me it is a no go. There may be contributions that may be of interest, but this does not justify an interaction with Nazis. There are also contributions of interest in other groups, probably even more. If I’m in an instance where I’ve seen Nazi garbage, xeno- or homophobic comments, the next automatic step is to block this instance, I don’t want this shit to appear on my timeline.

        • pancakes
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          1910 months ago

          If Nazi content is something you don’t want blocked, then I recommend you find a different instance because not many people will share your values here.

        • @jerkface@lemmy.ca
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          10 months ago

          You seem to be saying that moderation actions should be performed against users, not instances. You’re not getting that instances ARE users. On a network where anyone can create an instance, and then as many accounts on that instance as they like, moderating accounts from a hostile instance is POINTLESS.

          • @Thorny_Thicket@sopuli.xyz
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            510 months ago

            No, I’m saying I dont want a 3rd party pre-selecting the content I’m allowed to see. I want to make the choices myself

            • @jerkface@lemmy.ca
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              10 months ago

              Doesn’t that exactly imply what I said? It’s the same thing, man. You’re trying to play hockey with a lacrosse stick and getting pissed off at lacrosse. Go play hockey if that’s what you’re into, the same rules don’t make sense here.

            • @aski3252@lemmy.world
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              310 months ago

              What “third party”? There is only one party that decides how their server is run and moderated and that’s the server owner… If you want to see Nazi content, you can go visit the Nazi server, nobody is stopping you from doing that except maybe your government… Nobody should be forced to host Nazi content on their servers against their will…

              So go make that choice and host your own instance… What gives you the right to choose how to run an instance you don’t own? I could understand if you have no other choice, but you do have the choice. The code is available for free…

        • @Polpota@lemmy.world
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          1710 months ago

          Two things.

          First, you can opt to follow that instance still, but I don’t know why you would want to hang out with a bunch of Nazis.

          Second, I liken it to cutting out a cancerous growth. If you have an instance infested with Nazis and those Nazis are not being stopped due to a lack of admin and/or mods or worse actively being promoted by an admin then defederate them to keep the Nazis from spreading.

          Look at the incel and redpill movements that happened on Reddit. Failure to act quick enough helped the movements grow. They were vitriolic to most people but most of them didn’t break any rules. They were destructive in nature and validated misogyny but Reddit didn’t act until it was a very vocal and well established community on its platform. Now, even after closing down their major subreddits, those users who weren’t the most extreme still actively espouse the values of those communities and have created new subreddits.

          Or in this case Beehaw has some very progressive ideals, with rules that require a lot more active moderation, they can’t handle the influx of everyone jumping ship from Reddit. Instead of leaving the gate open for people who will ignore the rules it’s better to shut it and open a smaller “apply to join” door creating a protective barrier from individuals that may be Nazis.

          In closing, I’ve both been a shitty redditor and seen shitty redditors and I appreciate that the fediverse has tools to decouple and recouple as needed. And again, if you like hanging out with Nazis that instance still exists and you can willingly hang out with Nazis.

          • @goat@sh.itjust.works
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            2110 months ago

            Except there are many users who get banned by the Beehaw admins because they dared disagree with the admins. Beehaw’s adminstration has an extensive history of this sort of behaviour, silencing any critics they can.

            Well before the reddit blackout wave, they literally had a “no sources” rule because users kept questioning the mods. Likewise their current “rule set” states what they say, goes, and that everything is up to them, not the rules. They say that with all cases (except obvious trolls), they will always warn first. I have yet to ever see any kind of warning from any of their admins.

            Truth is they were being questioned on sh.it and on lemmy.world, so they blocked both. You can check their modlog to see just how little spam they have to deal with. Instead they spend most of their time on discord.

            I was a victim of their abuse – I personally got banned because I got into an argument with the admin there. They wrongly assumed that I was American and made a claim to counter my argument. I then pointed out their mistake that their claim doesn’t apply to my country, and then – Boom, banned, no appeal, no warning, nothing.

          • @Thorny_Thicket@sopuli.xyz
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            10 months ago

            I understand all this but I just don’t personally see it as a problem the same way many others seem to. I constantly read comments I strongly disagree with (for example when discussing this topic) and it’s fine. A racist comment here and there doesn’t bother me much. If it’s written in “good faith” but I disagree with it I’ll either downvote or not engage. If it’s just pure hate with no content I block the user and I don’t need to deal with them ever again. I’m an adult capable of deciding myself what I don’t mind seeing on my feed and what I do. I view it as a kind of a science experiement. I like exposing myself to ideologies even if I strongly disagree with them. I find it interesting when people have a completely different world view to me.

            When it comes to stuff that’s illegal it’s a different story. Ofcourse I need to deal with it wether it personally affects me or not.

            Also nazis are not the point here. It’s just an extreme example. We could be speaking of flat earthers aswell.

            • @sussy_gussy@wirebase.org
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              710 months ago

              There are also instances made to host spam bots (when they host it themselves they can make as many bots as they want and as fast as they want without having to worry about captcha) and instead of blocking each bot manually, our admins have the option to block that bot instance entirely. That’s a pretty powerful moderation tool. They may of course also use this to block communities with a different ideology than them to avoid conflict. If you don’t want this, you can join an instance that doesn’t do this (that choice is the cool thing about the fediverse) and you could even host your own instance if you have the know how.

              • GodOP
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                210 months ago

                He didn’t say anything about spammers though, just dissenting opinions. Obviously if your instance is filled with 99% spam you ban the spam. Nothing to do with the nazis thing he was talking about.

            • @damipereira@lemmy.world
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              410 months ago

              I think the beauty of federation is that each instance can have it’s own moral code, I figure we will see everything-not-illegal-lemmy.com at some point, without any conmunity except meta ones, with admins that just do not de-federate from anything else.

              You can be part of any instance that aligns with your values. And each community can decide which instance to live in. If some community wants to live in an instance which allows everything so anyone can comment, then maybe they move or start their own.

              And I don’t think only horrible people would want this. I figure some community like suicide watch might want to allow everyone to comment no matter where they are from. Making de-federation the only option would suck, but it’s not. There can be different bubbles, and bubbles which contain them.

        • @Cameli_Hostis@lemmy.world
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          1210 months ago

          Everyone missing the point because the example is “Nazis”. It doesn’t matter what it is, I don’t want someone else deciding what I can see. Unless it causes legal problems for the server, don’t censor me.

          Individual servers isn’t the quick answer everyone seems to think it is.

          • @damipereira@lemmy.world
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            610 months ago

            Different instances have different ideologies. You can get a user on “everything-conservative” which blocks half if the federation, or you can get into a free for all instance which allows all. Big generic instances like lemmy.world do have a big problem on their hands, they have to make the bubble the common denominator of all users, which is hard to know.

        • @Jimmycrackcrack@lemmy.ml
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          10 months ago

          I wrestle with this, I really do. Part of the way forward for me and part of the problem at the same time is finding consistency in the application of principles. I can acknowledge change over time in how I see this issue, but that change could be described as hypocrisy. I know when I first heard about and began to really get into Reddit, I was very much in the let the upvotes decide camp and felt it aligned with my generally liberal even leftist views. To begin to apply caveats to this idea should seem then to be a back step and admission that I don’t fully believe in democratic values or equal rights to beliefs and opinions.

          But over time I’ve tried to reconcile this with certain emerging realities. Especially those brought about by the nature of the internet in particular. People will often bring up things like Nazis as their go-to example of why you should embrace moderation and intervention in open forums. It’s a pretty good example because they’re a fairly widely held archetype of an intolerable world view that almost everyone agrees they wouldn’t endorse, which is a useful extreme in any discussion on this topic even if a tired one. But one can always ask, “surely then, these Nazis would be a marginal and irrelevant influence? There’s no need to sacrifice the purity of our dedication to open discussion by intervening to banish such views on internet forums, the users and voting systems will do it, and if they don’t, then maybe it’s what ‘the people’ wanted after all?” Well sure, but this theoretical approach ignores realities such as the mechanisms that will be used to push this fringe and near universally reviled set of ideas to the mainstream fore. The machinery of the internet allows for malicious actors not to just put out their views on a virtual speaker’s corner, but infect and flood a forum and artificially distort it in to basically, a nazi forum. They’re not honest idealists trying to sell their relatively unpopular wares in the market of ideas, they’re walking around pushing everyone else’s stalls over or surreptitiously supplanting their own materials in to everyone else’s shop front. In a more literal sense they’ll use bots, they’ll use alts, they’ll brigade, they’ll insert Nazism in to every topic where it’s not relevant, they’ll organise together and purposefully distort voting for posts by automated means or just by a perverse dedication to poisoning the well by consistently voting on ideology rather than interest. They’ll use open hostility to make a place generally unpleasant enough to be around that there’s a disincentive for anyone except those whose only desire is to promote Nazism, to even bother contributing which will further reinforce the distorted influence of this small but dedicated group of bastards dilligently constructing an echo chamber for themselves and they’ll point to that echo chamber and their outsized influence in it and declare it the will of the people for the relative lack of a counter narrative. They’ll cry foul and rail against censorship when attempts are finally made to curtail them as they simultaneously smother anything like free speech themselves through their continuing degradation of it.

          “But can’t we do that? What makes them special? If all it takes is dedication to an ideology shouldn’t we just fight with equal zeal?” maybe, but this takes us back to the purpose of the forum, and of the individual instances too. If, on each visit, your time is dedicated to trying to fight bad faith actors deliberately perverting the discourse from either an explicitly stated topic (for a specialised instance) or just general discussion, then you’re really not getting what you wanted or needed out of that place anymore.

          The same applies to something less ideologically loaded but working in a similar fashion, ads, shitposting and astro turfing. Those are things you can be pretty sure you won’t miss and we’re all better off without, but similar to insidious fringe political groups, they will work against your idealistic principles to force themselves in to spaces you’d hoped to carve out apart from their malign influence. They’ll fight dirty and use your tolerant policies to help them proliferate. Unchecked, they completely overrun a comment section, they do it at scale, with automation and strategy and often with backing which gives them staying power and an asymmetric ability compared to administrators and general users alike but technically, they’re just sharing ideas, equally as valid as any other. They, like Nazis will also be probing the weaknesses of administrators, they’ll use techniques that render case by case examination of borderline unacceptable behaviour ineffective and impractical and thereby side step moderation that’s not empowered to deal with them at equal scale.

          It is the sad nature of humanity and the internet that such things are predictable and inevitable. It means free speech is ironically something that has to be maintained through seemingly antithetical means, it’s part of why it even exists as a concept, otherwise surely all speech would just be free speech by default and there’d be no point giving it a name. It’s something that despite it’s name actually requires careful balancing to make sure it really is actually free for everyone and that that concept not being abused to effectively amplify the speech of small groups at the expense of everyone else. Knowing all this if you are hosting a discussion platform you have a dilemma, do you choose not to act, in order to preserve the sanctity and purity of your principles and commitment to providing a platform for open discussion; only to watch that platform transform from such in to its very antithesis, or do you actively take steps to make sure your speaker’s corner remains such both in theory and in practice.

    • @Aninjanameddaryll@sopuli.xyz
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      5110 months ago

      Eh, if it were easier to block an instance as a user, I’d be 100% with you instead of 95%.

      There are instances that are batshit crazy. Since blocking an instance as a user just ain’t possible yet, I can see why defederation before trouble gets going is useful. Once the nasty side of the internet gets snowballing, it’s much harder to manage.

      Troll, or serious extremist, some things are just cancerous.

      • elgordofordo86
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        2710 months ago

        These are good points but apparently it was just a community on that instance… The instance itself wasn’t the problem. You can in fact block a community as a user. People absolutely have the power to block the_Donald community on that instance on their own.

          • elgordofordo86
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            110 months ago

            Why can’t people decide for themselves? I don’t get the appeal of someone blocking something for me? A real turn off for me on lemmy so far. I get it for now since the tools aren’t there yet but long term if it continues to be an issue I’d probably have to self host or get out.

              • elgordofordo86
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                110 months ago

                It’s freedom in the loosest sense. As in there’s more options. Would it still be freedom if a government makes choices for you? I suppose if I have the means to move to a different country it technically still is. Still distasteful. I don’t know the people that run my instance. Why should I trust them to know what’s best? We’ll see how it shakes out.

      • @Taxxor@lemm.ee
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        10 months ago

        Since blocking an instance as a user just ain’t possible yet

        I don’t think that would solve the legal issue so it doesn’t really matter in many cases. Even if you personally blocked an instance, your home instance will still recieve copies of that instance as long as someone else is interacting with it. And with that comes the fear of unintentionally hosting something illegal on your instance becasue you have the copies from that other instance.

        So again there would be no other solution than defederating.

    • Bri Guy
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      2710 months ago

      People can block communities right? That might make more sense than just severing connections to other servers completely?

      • tymon
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        3210 months ago

        See, that would be such a better option. Let individual users block servers from appearing for them alone in any interactive sense. The Beehaw defederation was not only terrible timing, but it exposed the biggest achilles heel of this whole idea.

        • Track_Shovel
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          1210 months ago

          Can you elaborate more on this? Its a tangent, but one I’m out of the loop on.

          Why DID beehaw split?

          • tymon
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            1810 months ago

            I’m not fully in the know on this by any means, but from what I understand, Beehaw’s admins/mods decided to defederate from sh.itjustwor.ks and lemmy.world because of an inability to moderate effectively due to the massive influx of new Lemmy users last week - most of which were in those two instances, as they have open registration.

            Beehaw requires you to apply to join.

            • Track_Shovel
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              1010 months ago

              How would splitting off fix that problem, though? If 100k users joined beehaw, and they stop syncing with the rest of the federation, they still have 100k new users to moderate.

              Or am I looking at this backwards, and they want their gated garden, absent of slugs?

              • GodOP
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                2010 months ago

                Beehaw would not let 100k users into their platform to start with. They will grow according to their means to moderate. That’s why they only allow sign-ups through application, go bring down the number of new sign-ups and filter by quality.

              • tymon
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                1410 months ago

                I think there’s definitely a bit of a gated-garden mentality here, but it’s mostly just being overwhelmed. If they had more help, or had ASKED for more help, it would probably have been much different. I’m new here myself so I’m not going to pretend to understand the nuances here.

                • @maegul@lemmy.ml
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                  710 months ago

                  The general way I’ve been putting things around federation is that it’s a different kind of friction from corporate big social, and there’s an adjustment period needed for both admins and users.

                  We’ve kinda gotten used to all living under one big umbrella corporation and tolerating their untouchable shadowy actions, as well as the convenience and relative simplicity that brings.

                  Federation is more chaos but also more human and flexible. So we get more interpersonal friction and less convenience, but more choice and direct connectivity to the admins. Arguably more accountability or transparency from admins too, but I think that’s the part that needs the most growth largely because many don’t know what that really looks like.

                  The transition can be tough sometimes. A loss of convenience can make us entitled and drama can be a real turn off. But I think it’s useful to think about how much our tolerance goes down when we can put an identity to an action we don’t like. It’s also useful to think about whether the friction of federation is more like real human interactions and whether that’s healthy.

                  I’m not a decentralisation fanboy. I tend to be critical of it actually, but I think there are trade offs both ways.

              • @iorale@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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                910 months ago

                Or am I looking at this backwards, and they want their gated garden, absent of slugs?

                You could say that, they have said more than once that they want their instance to be their safe-space, which is cool and all, if their users are all up on defederating at the fall of a leaf along with the mods that’s cool, the “problematic” part are the users that join that instance because it’s big but don’t expect them to be like that, because then they have to drop that account and create another in a different instance.
                But I’ve said it more than once, until we get migration tools think of your account as disposable or prepare to keep multiple accounts to juggle servers.

                That said, I think they would be happier using a forum-like server instead of the fediverse because they seem like the kind of instance to end up isolating themselves.

                • @Taxxor@lemm.ee
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                  10 months ago

                  the “problematic” part are the users that join that instance because it’s big but don’t expect them to be like that, because then they have to drop that account and create another in a different instance.

                  Not even that, it also affects users on other big instances that happen to be defederated by beehaw and with beehaw still hosting some of the biggest tech and gaming communities, users won’t have access to that depending on which other instance they joined.

          • Bri Guy
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            510 months ago

            I remember mods saying that it was too much work managing the trolls and other “offensive” content so by splitting it was easier for them to control

      • @BenFranklinstein@sh.itjust.works
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        1810 months ago

        You’d think the concept of letting users choose their instance would also apply to letting the user choose to block or not. It’s not like the entire instance is full of Donald users, just one crappy part of it.

      • GodOP
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        1210 months ago

        Tell that to admins with strong opinions, and other admins who don’t wanna anger admins with strong opinions and get defederated for not defederating the offenders.

        • Arcaneslime
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          310 months ago

          That’s the part that gets me. Like, I’m all for “it’s your server do what you want,” but I do judge you if your reason for defederating my server is something so stupid as “this other server says they’re bad, so I’ll trust that.”

          You fools ain’t never had a friend spread a runor about another friend? Never watched a sitcom? People lie lol, if you’re going to make overarching decisions that affect your users too, you could maybe stand to do a modicum of your own research into it instead of just letting the one you “trust” bully you into compliance simply because this other masto instance doesn’t cater specifically to marxists, and “capitalists are nazis” so they must be banned or else they’ll speak!

          My masto server is defederated for being anti trans, yet one of our organizations key members has been a trans woman since 1981 and she’s one of the most prolific posters on the server (and one of the best, I might add). We’re labeled “anti trans” simply because we didn’t defederate with a server that is actually anti trans when the “good guys” tried to bully my admin into it, but the admin respects us enough to allow us to make our own decisions regarding what we want to see or not see on our feed, so of course that suggests to these reactionaries that he wants to somehow exterminate the jewish people.

          I’d be more open to it frankly if I wasn’t a direct example of how that system can be and is being abused to create echo chambers and bully those who don’t want to live in them. By all means, your server your right to do so, but my right to think you’re a bad person for it if it’s for silly unresearched reasons such as this. And you might say “they don’t have the time to investigate everything, so they just throw the book at it.” Well, they chose to become admins, they chose that job, maybe managing a public server just isn’t for them, I know I don’t have the time, that’s why I don’t do it.

          • GodOP
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            510 months ago

            Completely agree. Admins are free to defederate. Users are free to heavily criticize and leave. That’s how freedom works. 😊

            • Arcaneslime
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              210 months ago

              Yes, just venting my personal grievances with the reacionary culture of the fedi at large. I think the fediverse would be perfect if most of the moderation (regarding cultivating your feed and blocking instances, communities, and users) was placed on the individual, barring outright illegal content like CP, revenge porn, or beastiality which should of course be nuked from orbit and are all actually illegal.

              I’d like to see the culture go not from dictator (reddit) to smaller dictators (lemmy), but from dictator (reddit) to anarchism (lemmy, but with more community decision making for themselves as an individual rather than The Council of Beehaw and The Council of Lemmy.world deciding all their peasants are at war with each other.)

              • GodOP
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                110 months ago

                Admins are effectively dictators. Some do have anarchistic views such as lemmy.dbzer0.com (and even there, to what extent?). The vast majority only care about themselves and what is theirs. No authority with absolute power will submit themselves to the will of a collective of strangers.

                • Arcaneslime
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                  210 months ago

                  My masto admin still is free to ban people he doesn’t like from his server of course, he just would rather we be able to curate our own feeds, and I’m sure curates his own just the same as we do. He didn’t abdicate the throne I suppose by the nature of being the server owner, and our server is private (exclusive to those in a particular club,) I guess he’s just a benevolent dictator. Still though, I like his approach.

    • Lenins2ndCat
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      2210 months ago

      So you would prefer massive dictators with a profit motive instead? Because that’s the alternative you are advocating for.

      The entire point of federation as a tool of decentralisation is to address the issue of Spez, Musk, Zuckerberg and so on. Massive corporate dictators of the internet.

      The solution is to split up the massive dictators into lots and lots of smaller ones, who can federate with who they want to in order to make a bigger space, and ultimately provide you with the choice of which approach you like better. It ultimatley allows all of these spaces to shut out corporate advertising as well because if McDonalds ever makes a fucking instance everyone will defederate that shit to get away from the advertising immediately.

      If you like the mega dictators better. Reddit is over there. I assume you do not, because that’s why you left it.

      • tymon
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        Don’t show your ass like this. Don’t do the “oh you like waffles so you hate pancakes???” meme. I didn’t say or suggest a single thing you just said.

        What I actually DID say is that allowing mods admins to defederate entire communities is stupid. If you want to talk about THAT, fine.

        EDIT: admins, not mods, my mistake, thanks god

          • tymon
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            410 months ago

            Look, you’re absolutely right about pretty much everything you said here. My issue is not exactly with the concept of federation per se, but with the potentially cavalier selection from a top-down level.

            The Beehaw situation is really what I mean. At least for the next few months, it seems to me that there will likely be a lot of confusion and frustration over how this all works from new users, and even longtime users will be left wondering whether they need to just keep making new accounts in order to interact with the communities they have history in. C/technology on Beehaw is the de-facto tech community, and it’s now inaccessible to a huge number of users, and for somewhat specious reasons.

            I understand the utility of federation and de-federation, but I don’t think it’s being handled well right now.

          • @Taxxor@lemm.ee
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            If a bunch of nazis want to run a server and post racist shit all day we can’t stop them. But we can (and should) defederate from them. They can have their own private island.

            And what if they post racist shit all day on their own instance but also post normal and helpful stuff on communities of other instances? Just don’t visit their communities, that’s it. No need to block potentially helpful posts of members of that instance everywhere.
            The same thing when there’s a NSFW and your own instance doesn’t want to see NSFW stuff. That’s fine but it’s not like the users of that NSFW instance are running around posting porn on every other community.

            If some of them do, block the users. But there’s no reason defederating the whole instance because those users can and do also participate just fine in other topics that have nothing to do with NSFW or nazi stuff.

            For example why should a programmer that has a nazi instance as his home not be allowed to post memes in a community about programming humour from a regular instance, when he doesn’t post anything there that is in any way related to him being a nazi?

              • @Taxxor@lemm.ee
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                10 months ago

                Not what I said, but okay…

                So you think that being a nazi automatically means that every view you have on anything is bad by default or that you are not able to participate in any normal conversations that don’t touch that topic, like technology or gaming, without writing racist stuff?
                Because that would be the only reason defederation would be justified in my eyes.
                In any other case, just don’t visit their home instance.

        • Lenins2ndCat
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          10 months ago

          I didn’t say or suggest a single thing you just said.

          Of course you did. You said that the defederating thing turns you off the concept of Lemmy, and you advocated for it to be not-a-feature.

          You are advocating for centralised mega platforms owned by mega dictators.

          The are two options. Centralisation, or decentralisation. That’s it. There is no magic alternative. This is the material reality that exists.

          If it turns you off Lemmy, then what you are advocating for is centralisation. The literal polar opposite of what the entire fediverse aims to be and exists to solve. There is not an alternative and there will not be. You either get one owner of a super site or thousands of owners of minisites that federate in order to be emulate a supersite without the oversight. That’s it. There is no third-way.

          • @zinklog@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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            1310 months ago

            Criticizing and mentioning flaws of a system doesn’t automatically make a person against the system.

            Accepting the current flaws and then working on their solutions is the way to make Lemmy better for everyone.

            • Lenins2ndCat
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              10 months ago

              The system IS federation.

              It’s not criticising flaws in a system, it’s literally asking to dismantle it entirely. You can’t have the fediverse or decentralisation without federation. That’s the issue.

              You either have centralisation. Or you have decentralised federation as a means of providing the size that centralised social media can reach without the centralisation part.

              The crying about it being a flaw is just people whining about wanting what they’re used to with absolutely no differences. They need to be told to simply get used to it with none of this babying. Their crappy suggestions and complaints are antithetical to the entire goal of fediverse.

              All of them will go back to reddit and then find themselves back here in a few years when it’s the content slop machine that they want it to be. They don’t actually care about the goal, they just want slop and are unhappy that their are complications about getting their slop.

        • GodOP
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          910 months ago

          Admins* defederate instances*. Mods only have power inside their /c/ community.

      • @Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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        210 months ago

        If creating little islands is the intended way of using lemmy then why bother with federation in the first place? Not to mention that carving up the fediverse robs it of the prospect of at some point replacing big players like reddit.

    • klieg2323
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      1510 months ago

      This is why I’m happy to be on my own private instance and part of what really turned me on to Lemmy. It’s trivial to spin up your own instance if you’re technically inclined. You have complete control over what you see and aren’t subject to some power hungry admin on some server like Beehaw. That’s what makes the fediverse so great imo

      • Dandroid
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        1610 months ago

        I was trying to set up my own 0.17.4 instance for a week. I have used docker professionally. 0.17.4 wasn’t trivial to set up. The instructions were full of errors and omissions. I basically had to rewrite the whole docker-compose.yml myself.

        Of course, right when I was at the finish line, they released 0.18.0 and rewrote the instructions, and now it gets you 90% of the way right out of the box. There was still one omission to pull an nginx config file, and then you need to get your own certificate and add it to that config file (or use a reverse proxy, but I have no need for that at the moment).

        At least it’s much easier than it was 3 days ago.

        If I didn’t already have a bunch of shit running in containers that I don’t want to risk messing up, I would have looked into using their Ansible instructions. But I really don’t like running scripts on my server (especially as root!) unless I know everything that it’s doing.

        • klieg2323
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          910 months ago

          Trivial probably wasn’t the best choice of word. I will say the effort was worth it

          • Dandroid
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            110 months ago

            Now that most of the issues are resolved, I would say none of it is really an issue you would need to be a programmer to resolve. More that you would need to have experience setting up websites.

            I also set mine up manually. There are a half a dozen or so different scripts that will set it up for you, including an official one here. I generally don’t feel comfortable running scripts on my server, so I avoid this if possible. But if you don’t have anything else on your server that you’re afraid it will fuck up, this is probably the easiest way to do it. You’re basically installing one command line program, on your laptop, then running the script. You’ll just need WSL2 on your laptop, be comfortable with CLI, and know how to git clone a repository. All that stuff can be easily googled.

    • Guru of Spores
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      1410 months ago

      You and me both. Presumably a lot of others as well.

      Feels like Lemmy is going to shoot itself in the foot with this.

    • Ataraxia
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      1410 months ago

      I mean I’d rather people have freedom over their property (aka their servers) than one entity be able to dictate to the entirety of lemmy.

      If I set up a server my instance will have my rules. I won’t allow NSFW nor will I allow any hate speech or promotion of extremist views such as nazism, fascism, imperialism, anything encouraging violence or threats, religious extremist beliefs such as sharia law and fundamental Christianity etc.

      I would not federate with any instances that break MY rules. That’s why it’s my instance. I made it, maintain it. My interest isn’t getting as many people on my instance as possible but to give a space for people who want to participate on that kind of instance. Some instances will focus on hating LGBT and being sexist etc and while that’s horrific they’re allowed to do whatever as long as it doesn’t break lemmy TOS which i honestly don’t know what it is. Anyway, it’s weird to see anyone label freedom to do what one wants with their property as being dictators.

      • @code_is_speech@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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        310 months ago

        The problem is that defederation is that it causes damage to the wider network, and can be far too easily abused.

        It makes instance selection very important to the user (which is already a major friction point). And causes terrible UX when users can’t figure out why content is unavailable to them.

        It can also be used as a weapon by powerhungry admins to force centralization around their instance.

        I know there aren’t really great alternatives to defederation for content moderation right now. But I think that these could easily be implemented. For example, instances could maintain a ‘blocklist’ which users could automatically be subscribed to upon joining, but they would be able to inspect and ‘opt-out’ from blocking certain instances or categories if they desired.

        I think this is a good balance of protecting users, and also respecting their freedom.

        Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean they could POST rule breaking content. (They are still users of your instance after all). Just that they would have the choice of which content they feel comfortable with VIEWING.

        When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. And defederation is a nuclear powered sledgehammer lol.

      • @maiskanzler@feddit.de
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        310 months ago

        There is no lemmy TOS by the way. There is no central authority to all of this. Much like real life, people tend to stay away from the weirdos and in the fediverse they just defederate from a group of weirdos if it becomes too bad.

        But to be honest, defederation is an absolutely minor inconvenience. Most important instance will of course cooperate and have similar rules. It’s just that we are on a very young platform right now and the moderation tools are not as advanced as elsewhere. Currently, defederation is just a temporary band-aid solution to make the admin’s lifes easier. It’ll get better and sort itself out over time.

        If you like spreading hate, you will of course always have a problem with defederation. You likely won’t be able to participate in normal discussions on normal instances as well as vile portrayals of humanities’ worst with the same account. But that’s not a new concept. People have had two accounts for normal discussion and things like NSFW subs before.

      • tartar
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        210 months ago

        there is no “lemmy TOS”. lemmy is only a piece of software that can be ran on a server. it is licensed under the GNU Affero GPL, a copyleft free software license.

        this means that pretty much the only legal “terms” you need to abide to run the software on a server is that if you modify it in any way, you have to publish the source code so that others can freely read and modify your version, the way you read and modified the original (this is what copyleft means; it’s the exact opposite of copyright).

        the instance owner is the only one providing any “service” here, and as such they decide their terms (the site-wide rules for an instance). if you run your own instance on your own server, you are the only one who can dictate any “terms of service”.

        all of this is by design; the fediverse would be pretty useless if anyone could impose a global “terms of service” over it.

    • ManeraKai
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      1110 months ago

      Well this is the design problem in ActivityPub. There are Nostr and OcapPub that are promising to resolve this problem.

      • tartar
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        710 months ago

        thankfully, that isn’t really the case on your (which also happens to be my) instance.

        we’ve been blocked by precisely one actual instance - the predominantly German-speaking feddit.de, for having open signups, which i’m sure is something we could hash out with them in the future. (technically there are also instances that block us which are run by single persons for their own use. in effect, this amounts to a single user blocking us for themselves, which obviously is fine).

        we ourselves have defederated from precisely one instance - lemmygrad.ml, the political one for authoritarian communists. this was probably done to avoid unpleasant political spam posts from showing up. personally, i think we could get rid of even this one block as the users can decide whether to block that instance for themselves or not; i might post asking about it later.

        and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues. this statement more than anything really made me feel like i chose the right instance.

        FMHY for the win!

        • @Taxxor@lemm.ee
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          we’ve been blocked by precisely one actual instance - the predominantly German-speaking feddit.de

          Which also was my first home instance until I noticed that a comment chain I accidentaly started using another lemmy instance was not visible when looking at the thread though feddit. Not even my own comments made with an instance that wasn’t blocked. Turns out the user I answered to start that chain was a member of your instance and thus the comment and everything following it was not visible for feddit users.

          Which is why I’m a full time lemm.ee user for now bc at the time it had 0 blocked instances and was blocked by 0 too^^

          and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues.

          That’s the policy of lemm.ee too. It has 34 blocked instances right now but those are all suspicious ones that formed and got >30K users within a couple hours and no activity at all.

          But ultimately, new users shouldn’t have to worry about such things, which is why I can’t see Lemmy growing as a whole with the tools available now.
          Everywhere it says it’s not relevant where you sign up because you can see all the stuff from other instances anyway, but that’s simply not true, it DOES matter where you sign up and even after that you could be forced to change your instance when the defederation roulette starts spinning again.

          and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues.

          • tartar
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            110 months ago

            Which is why I’m a full time lemm.ee user for now bc at the time it had 0 blocked instances and was blocked by 0 too^^

            aye, that’s the real beauty of the fediverse; every person can find an instance which suits their preferences. those like us can find more hands-off instances if we want to, and equally people who prefer more moderation can easily find a more heavily moderated/curated instance.

            But ultimately, new users shouldn’t have to worry about such things, which is why I can’t see Lemmy growing as a whole with the tools available now.

            maybe an unpopular opinion, but i don’t care so much about lemmy growing. it’s great right now, having achieved a lot of growth recently bringing lots of interesting content and community, but still not being so big to the point where all the disadvantages of a reddit-sized userbase start to show.

            hell, maybe it’s better that lemmy never grows as big as the centralized sites, the people who prefer all the advantages of decentralized social media can move here, whereas those who prioritize convenience/ease of use can stay on the big sites. the annoyance of defederations is in some sense just a part of how the protocol works, and not something that can be “solved” per se; the people who are here choose to put up with it in exchange for all the advantages.

            one thing that could be done though, is for the lemmy software to have an easy option for migrating all your account data like mastodon does. the poor lemmy devs (literally just 2 dudes) are up to their necks in water just keeping track of the flood in the issues and pull requests right now, so it’s not likely lemmy will get new features soon, but hopefully people will step in to help them as well. if i was good enough at rust (or programming in general) i’d try to help too.

            • @Taxxor@lemm.ee
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              110 months ago

              maybe an unpopular opinion, but i don’t care so much about lemmy growing. it’s great right now, having achieved a lot of growth recently bringing lots of interesting content and community, but still not being so big to the point where all the disadvantages of a reddit-sized userbase start to show.

              Yeah it doesn’t have to get as big as reddit and I don’t think it ever will, but at least right now I feel my “All” feed doesn’t really change that much within 2-3 days so I’d like a couple more users on here^^

              • tartar
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                110 months ago

                Dumb question, but have you tried changing from “Active” sort type (the default) to “New”? I had the same problem till I found that with lemmy’s size at present, “New” is better at bringing you actually new posts from the past few hours rather than staying the same for days. Though maybe that only works for me because of the number of communities I’m subscribed to. Which is another thing that might help; discovery is a little difficult right now so best to use an external site like https://lemmyverse.net/ to find communities that interest you.

                • @Taxxor@lemm.ee
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                  I mostly used “Top day” recently, “New” isn’t really good with “All”, more with “Subscribed”.
                  Browsing lemmyverse.net is useful when I actively want to search for a specific community.
                  With the current size of Lemmy, I mostly use “All” because I might find interesting stuff from comunities that I didn’t think of before.

    • @bojanged@lemmy.ca
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      610 months ago

      Yep, this exact situation is why this whole federation thing is never ever going to catch on as much as Digg and Reddit did. I’m all for a good Reddit alternative but I really don’t think this will be it.

      • @maegul@lemmy.ml
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        2910 months ago

        The history of the fediverse has been paved with comments like this. Many thought lemmy would never be as populated as it is right now.

        Truth is broad unsubstantiated critiques are easy to make. Constructive criticism harder. Actually trying to make things better even harder.

        How much is your critique just “I don’t like a loss of some convenience even if it is the trade off for choice, diversity and non-profit corporatisation of my online social life”?

    • @jerkface@lemmy.ca
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      10 months ago

      You know you can block all the way down at the IP level, right? Yet somehow the Internet internets.

    • @ipkpjersi
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      410 months ago

      It’s not going to get addressed because it can’t be, other than running your own Lemmy instance and just federating with everyone, until the main instances turn off blocklists and instead use allowlists.

    • @Future203@sh.itjust.works
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      310 months ago

      I don’t know how any of this works either, but I’m hoping for a solution that makes it harder for owners of large instances throwing their weight around to affect the users so drastically.

      Something I can imagine would be the ability to be logged in to multiple accounts at once, so a user could see and interact with multiple unlinked instances seamlessly. Commenting or posting in a community would default to either an account made in that communities instance, or the next available account in a linked instance.

      I think this is sort of how it works now, we’re just missing the ability to make the experience seamless.

  • @monobot@lemmy.ml
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    8810 months ago

    People in this thread look like they never mada a mistake doing something for the first time.

    You are all perfect, but our admins are awful.

    They also don’t have experience in running this federation thing like we don’t have in using it.

    This is all in R&D mode, both for code and for running community.

    Express your opinions, since that is the only way things can change, but have some understanding for people running the show.

    • @Lininop@lemmy.ml
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      3610 months ago

      People in this thread look like they never mada a mistake doing something for the first time.

      I mean 90% of this community is now Redditors so are you really surprised with the attitude?

      • @monobot@lemmy.ml
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        610 months ago

        Sadly, I am not surprised at all. But I do hope it will be possible to have some instances where diversity is encouraged.

    • @HubbleST@lemm.ee
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      610 months ago

      Who puts the word “shit” in the name of their website anyway? That’s a good way to make sure a lot people don’t talk about your site. Kids aren’t allowed to say that word, people at work won’t say it because it’s inappropriate, the media won’t say it on air, etc. One could argue it’s actually “sh dot it just dot works” but that’s a mouthful.

  • tartar
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    6110 months ago

    thank god someone else is finding humor in this too. i laughed at the sheer absurdity of half the comments in that thread. people can really easily lose all sense of proportion

      • tartar
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        10 months ago

        https://lemmy.fmhy.ml/post/265796

        here you go, keep in mind that it’s 2 days old so probably best not to comment on it and shake up a pot that’s now settled. just sit back, read and laugh instead

        (wish i could give you a properly formatted link that would load the post in your instance instead of booting you off-site, but as of now i don’t think there’s syntax that lets you share proper links to posts, like there is with communities. does each instance just number every post on the network by itself? so far that’s what it’s been looking like to me)

        • no problem, the connection between instances are still kinda awkward anyways, I won’t be able to see whole thing. Thanks for the link, I’mma grab a popcorn real quick.

      • tartar
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        510 months ago

        heh, just realised i said “thank god someone is finding humor in this” and you, the someone in question, are literally called “god” :)

        • GodOP
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          410 months ago

          lol yeah there were a couple thank gods in this thread and i made sure to reply to both 🥰 it’s fun to be god

      • @MBM@lemmy.world
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        1110 months ago

        are getting butthurt

        Were butthurt, until they got what they wanted and the community got banned

      • LinkOpensChest.wav
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        2210 months ago

        There’s no real drama. Beehaw is defederating from some instances with shitty communities. That’s all.

        I don’t understand people who want this to be another reddit. Reddit was awful lmao

        • Ghostalmedia
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          3310 months ago

          IMHO, the big problem is that defederating causes a bunch of problems when you’re cutting ties with an instance that is 99.9% good actors.

          Sure, you cut out the trolls, but you also totally fuck up the user experience for the vast majority of well intentioned people.

          Example, I’m on Lemmy.world, and my wife is on beehaw. We often both comment to a Lemmy.ml community, and neither of us can see each others comments even though Lemmy.ml is neutral ground.

          • GodOP
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            410 months ago

            I would personally join another instance to have access to both lemmy.ml and my wife’s comments. Why don’t you join lemm.ee for example? It hasn’t defederated or been defederated with any big instance.

            • @Hexarei@programming.dev
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              410 months ago

              Yeah this along with having more communities aligned with my interests is why I joined programming.dev. I like beehaw’s communities, and lost a good 6-7 communities when they defederated from the other two big ones.

              So I moved to a third instance, to get used to this place until I set my own up sometime in the near future.

              • GodOP
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                210 months ago

                Yup. I’m also moving between instances. I have multiple accounts. All I do is browse and meme anyway. I don’t need a “home address” with a doorbell. Liftoff app is improving it’s inbox and currently you can switch very fast between servers’ inboxes. The problem is more that I have to make a lot more effort than I would if this weren’t happening, and that many people don’t even know they aren’t “stuck” with their first account.

          • LinkOpensChest.wav
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            410 months ago

            Eh, having read the information provided upfront by beehaw upon joining their instance, I find it unsurprising that they’d block an instance that allows something as discriminatory as the_donald. I’m on a different instance altogether, but I wouldn’t be surprised if our server owner is keeping an eye on that situation as well. I know we’ve already defederated from a few such as lemmygrad, and one of our rules is “No racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, or casteism,” which is one of the reason I joined this instance in the first place.

            There are plenty of instances you can join that allow Republicanism, Stalinism, Maoism, or whichever other extremist communities you want to see. Personally, I’m not looking for another reddit. I want something better than that.

            • @Lemminary@lemmy.ml
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              210 months ago

              Personally, I’m not looking for another reddit. I want something better than that.

              Hear, hear!

            • Square Singer
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              110 months ago

              For something better than Reddit, manly better mod tools and better mods than on Reddit would be required…

          • exu
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            410 months ago

            Sadly there aren’t any other tools to deal with abuse coming from another instance on a large scale. Moderation tools are basically inexistent atm.

          • GreatWhiteBuffalo41
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            110 months ago

            I agree with this. I understand WHY they did it but it kinda wrecks the entire experience of federation. I’m really hoping we end up with better mod tools ASAP.

    • Track_Shovel
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      810 months ago

      Aren’t they de-federating (fuck the English language) over the_Donald joining the instance?

      • GodOP
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        10 months ago

        It was banned as soon as the admin realized it even existed lmao. There was just one dude posting there and it was terrible quality so no one even cared.

        But everyone made such a fuss that the dude is practically now the entire branch of Nazism of Lemmy or something according to the proponents of defederation.

  • @Jimmycrackcrack@lemmy.ml
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    2210 months ago

    Hey jas sh.itjust.works actually been defederated with many major instances yet or are there just murmurs? I’m confused what happens because I’m on lemmy.ml and I still see sh.itjust.works content, but then I’m actively subscribed to some communities there. My understanding with defederation is that you no longer see anything from a given instance in the “all” section vs the “local” section (where you only have seen stuff from your home instance anyway). That makes sense, but what about my subscriptions. If I’m actively subscribed do I still get content from defederated instances or is that all just gone?

    • GodOP
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      6310 months ago

      No no, nothing happened. It was all angry discussion by crowds who didn’t know anything. The problems were solved very fast and no one ended up unhappy except for the troll.

      • @tobor@sh.itjust.works
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        2410 months ago

        It sucks because Sh.itjustworks is generally a pretty good place, people trying some good things like the Agora. Then I take a look a few minutes later and it’s like the Donald Glover pizza meme all over again.

        • GodOP
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          1210 months ago

          Some peeps don’t appreciate the good stuff in life. Gotta make it all about their deeply ingrained political beliefs, and bring down anything that slightly challenges them. As someone in the original thread implied, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    • Nerd02
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      10 months ago

      If I’m actively subscribed do I still get the content […]?

      No, the whole point of defed is that your home instance stops “listening” to the updates of the defederated instance. So you’d stop getting updates from any community hosted on @sh.itjust.works period.

    • grey
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      310 months ago

      If this defederation thing takes hold on the Lemmy network like it did the activitypub network then there’s no point in switching to this from Reddit, and it’ll just become small unconnected forums anyway.

    • @Countmacula@lemmy.world
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      010 months ago

      Now you only see the “local” copy of those subs. People in your instance can post links to it but you won’t see anything other non federated instances.

  • Track_Shovel
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    10 months ago

    Aren’t they de-federating (fuck the English language) over the_Donald joining the instance?

    Sidebar: saying ‘federating’ aloud ought to be an auditory war crime. What an ugly fucking word. I would rather hear someone fart into a tuba

    • @Barbarian@lemmy.ml
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      2010 months ago

      1 guy made a community. He put some shitty posts there that were massively downvoted. He was banned and his community deleted. It’s hardly “The_Donald” joining.

    • @jerkface@lemmy.ca
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      10 months ago

      Jesus, you are all over the place. Hearing someone fart into a tuba would be fucking awesome, and possibly quite sonorous as compared to the usual method of blowing raspberries into a tuba. I can’t make heads or tails of you.