Edit2: It’s a subjective perception I’m talking about. Are you offended? Why?
What’s the matter, why can’t men deal with me being sensitive and emotional? Is it because they struggle with me reminding them of having, too, emotions?
Edit: Do men think I’m weak when I show emotions? If so, why?? Why do women see it as a sign of strength when men are vulnerable, but men don’t seem to get it? Are they/are we dumb??
Men are often socialized to believe that showing emotion is reserved for children, women, and the weak. They are often taught that emotions are in direct opposition to “strength” and “manliness”.
Unfortunately, if men show emotion, they are often criticized and made fun of (often by other men), calling their masculinity into question. As if having emotions make you weak or less of a man.
Emotions are not a “weak” trait. Emotions are a human trait.
Men need to work hard to be supportive and accepting of other men showing emotion. De- stigmatize emotional men. Stop showing sensitive men or men who struggle or cry as “weak” or worthy of mockery. This is such an antiquated view and needs to be abolished.
Support your bros. Become comfortable with emotional expression. This will help struggling men everywhere, I guarantee it.
Men show emotions all the time. The problem is that the only “acceptable” emotion is anger or resentment. People of any gender validate other peoples feelings based on their own experiences. Because women’s emotions are invalidated as weak or useless, women tend to be more sympathetic to others who experience that same invalidation.
That’s my point: anger is an “acceptable” emotion for men, because it often coincides with the masculine concept of strength.
The “weak” emotions, though, are not acceptable.
Which is why OP feels they are more openly able to show these emotions to women but not men.
“Did Jesus ever cry? No! And neither will I!”
John 11:35
Jesus wept.
ThatsTheJoke.jpg
Oh, I didn’t get that 🙈
“But Daaaaad, I thought you were gonna save Me,” He cried. B&S 4:20:69
Plenty of men can deal with this, and plenty of women can’t. It’s not helpful to see this as a gender thing, you’ll only feel more alienated. You might want to seek out some new social connections?
Ignoring strong correlations because “not all” is less helpful.
Most men, in western society, have issues with expressing emotions other than anger. I’m certain I could find studies as proof, but don’t we all already know this to be true?
We do. Isn’t there currently an epidemic of men having to deal with a slew of mental health issues, not knowing what to do/how to deal with it?
Yeah. That.
You missed my point. I’m ignoring nothing, I’m suggesting OP seek out men who will be supportive, because they’re not hard to find.
I’m certain I could find studies as proof, but don’t we all already know this to be true?
Yeah. Provide studies.
Here’s one that cites multiple others right in the intro.
Loaded question. Full of judgement, too.
Fair enough, it’s a subjective perception that I asked about
This is what is commonly referred to as “toxic masculinity”. That’s the crux of what they’re talking about. It’s not just that men are taught to be dangerous to those around them, it’s that we’re also taught to be hard and lonely Islands that seek no support.
It’s no way to live and it crushes you over time.
As opposed to masculinity. Look at Gilgamesh, Achelies, even the godfather of stoicism Marcus Arilius. Historically peak alpha males never muffled their emotions.
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Not quite, I have a group of male friends who are very comfortable with being emotional with each other and I still prefer opening to women because they are much more concerned and able to deal with it, lot of men still don’t know what to do with it.
You’re still describing the effects of toxic masculinity, just the 2nd order effects rather than the first.
Why do you think a lot of men don’t know what to do with it? Why do you think a lot of men aren’t concerned?
It’s not some innate aspect of being a woman: it’s a suppressed aspect of being a human that society has pressed out of men.
They aren’t as used to talk about emotions and relationships so it’s easier to go with someone that is.
It’s no assumptions just facts
Yes. And the reason for that is toxic masculinity. That’s the point they were making. They were explaining the why, not the what.
I mean sure but if you want to look more in depth it’s not just toxic masculinity, there’s also toxic femininity involved most men have been hurt by their previous partner who they opened up to and their partner then used it against them or even ridiculed them in front of an audience. Or women around them mocked them for being emotional and crying
What you’re describing is still toxic masculinity and has absolutely nothing to do with toxic femininity. Men that have been hurt by their previous partners or ridiculed for being emotional, is toxic masculinity. This is because men are discouraged from expressing their emotions or seeking support, reinforcing the harmful stereotype that vulnerability is a sign of weakness. Men get hurt by women doing this because of the toxic view many men and women carry about masculinity and male gender roles.
Toxic femininity on the other hand, is a societal expectation placed on women to conform to traditional gender roles and stereotypes, like being passive, nurturing, and submissive.
Nope
Examples of Toxic Femininity
To identify toxic femininity, you need to know what to look out for to ensure they are not falling victim to toxic femininity guise as friendship or niceness by some women. The telltale signs include:
Slut-shaming and body-shaming – women who slut-shame or body shame others are toxic Talking over other people and belittling others, especially fellow women Making fun of another female to get the attention of a man. Shaming men for being too soft or having feminine traits that do not live up to societal expectations of what a man is. Passive aggression behavior can include patronizing behavior, fake niceties, and smiley faces after a harsh text. Sabotaging and backstabbing behavior like lying for their benefit, offering misleading advice, manipulating situations, and mocking others for their decisions. Resentment, jealousy, and bitterness towards others, especially fellow women, for their popularity, looks, and achievements Negative competitiveness with other women through dominance or sexuality
Sounds like you hang out with childish “men” (boys) and emotionally intelligent women.
There have been plenty of times in my life where showing emotions to women was the wrong move. On the other hand, the friend of mine that I consider the most emotionally mature is a man.
Toxic patterns get passed on due to resentment, often. It’s not like they wanted to have to suppress their emotions, but they were taught to. The idea people don’t have to anymore itches some people in a weird way.
Like, pretend you joined a club that had an initiation that was really painful, and it happened every year. Tradition. Now imagine that started to change, and you yourself were from that last year that ever had to do it. Now everyone who joins doesn’t have to. That could breed resentment for those new people and that new system, if you let it.
Yeah, I guess that change would confuse the hell out of me …
and I guess I recognize that kind of resentment, like “why/how the hell is him able to be so vulnerable and I not?” That makes so much sense but it’s crazy confusing to me still
So, it may be that men resent me for my ability to be vulnerable?! Damn wtf
It definitely can get weird. All the self-reflection that helps you see it requires some sensitivity too, so never learning that sensitivity can partially prevent you from ever fully acquiring it, dropping those guys into a sort of trap that would be hard for anyone to escape.
I am eternally grateful to Fred Rogers for teaching me many different ways of seeing situations while I was young enough to still believe in him, which helped avoid this trap. Once I got old enough to think for myself, I could look back and choose for myself. I had options to choose from, instead of just my own local culture.
I don’t know your exact experiences, but I had a similar feeling in the past. However, recently I noticed it was a lot of how i behaved to them. I started speaking more openly with my male friends and noticed, they also value my emotions. The main difference was, that my friendships with women started on an emotional level making it a lot easier to open up for me. With my male friends, I needed to just say how i feel, which i have not dared for a long time. My own stereotypes probably played a larger role than the gender of the people involved.
However as others have said, if they do not take you seriously when you open up, they are bad friends.
They wouldn’t be bad friends out of malice though, that’s a bit harsh
Yep. And it’s really liberating once you become comfortable plainly sharing your emotions about things with other men. I didn’t even realize I was keeping things in until I stopped keeping things in. I think it’s helped my relationship with my wife too, just by building better habits around isolating and speaking my emotional reaction to things.
Then you run into a full-blown narcissist and they will mistake your openness for weakness and start to weaponise it against you. Ask me how I know this.
In my experience, this isn’t a gendered distinction - but rather just down to the individual person.
Some of my closest friends that are both men and women alike are friends I consider “letting my guard down” around. The same applies in the opposite direction, where I have friends (but generally more on the distant friend / acquaintance side) men and women alike that I have to be a bit more guarded around.
And while I can’t comment on this specifically because I of course don’t know you and as such have no frame of reference, from what I’ve experienced in the past and seen others go through, is that a lot of times it’s how you bring it up. If it seems more forceful, it’s going to have a higher chance to not land well with people (of any gender).
Edit: Another thing worthwhile to note, is that people have different ways of expressing emotional acceptance. For example, my grandfather would never turn me, or anyone away for expressing their emotions. But, he’s more of a silent listener, and doesn’t usually comment on it - but I know that he is still accepting of my emotions the few times that I bring it up. It’s very similar to the concept of love languages, if you’ve ever heard that. It’s very possible that the men in your life are more the silent listener type.
I don’t think it’s a man/woman thing. I have been friends with men who were very supportive during such times, and women who saw it as weakness. I’ve also met a lot of women who are turned off by romantic gestures and sentimental feelings coming from men. And of course, I’ve encountered many that were the reverse of these.
So I honestly don’t think gender is a factor here. I think it varies a lot from person to person regardless of gender. It also highly depends on your relationship with that person. Don’t expect a lot of support or empathy from your most casual friends. Some friends will run away from you at the first sign of anything remotely ‘clingy’.
It also highly depends on your relationship with that person. Don’t expect a lot of support or empathy from your most casual friends. Some friends will run away from you at the first sign of anything remotely ‘clingy’.
This is almost certainly part of it. Reality is, most people will only have one or two friendships that are developed enough to be even close to totally vulnerable with. Most people have between 3 to 5 close friends, without much regard for gender.
In the age of social media, friendships seem diluted to me. The vast majority of people you meet, if you come out and dump the mess of your life on them… they’re gonna back away.
It isn’t that they’re unempathetic, either. Maintaining that kind of intimate friendship requires a lot of effort and intentionality; people are going to take a step back because they just don’t have the energy to deal with it and the relationship lacks the frame work of trust and mutual understanding to do more than “gee that sucks. Uhm. Good luck with that.”
That said, it is entirely possible that the culture one finds oneself in has dictated all the things that are being said elsewhere here. For a common example, religious congregations that hew to conservative/traditional relationships.
In the age of social media, friendships seem diluted to me.
I agree. People have always been selfish and self-absorbed to varying degrees. But social media acts as an amplifier of that, from what I’ve seen.
It isn’t that they’re unempathetic, either.
Thanks for pointing this out (and your other good points). It’s not reasonable to expect just any random person you know to be a shoulder to cry on.
Unfortunately, I think our modern “pace of life” here in 2023 has diminished the number and quality of those deeper friendships. I think back to my parents in the 70s and 80s, and how they had close friends that they would spend a lot of time talking on the phone with, visiting with in person on a frequent basis, writing letters and postcards to, etc. Much of that would seem completely absurd to a young person today. People are terrified of talking on the phone, and have forgotten how to do anything but conduct robot-like business on the phone (and they resent doing even that).
Obligatory “nOt ALl MeN”
I’m a dude and I’m fine with my guy friends showing emotion. Very few do. We’re socially taught it’s weird, but it’s not.
Get yourself a guy friend you can hug.
Yeah … you’re right 🙈
problem is though
Past sexual abuse makes it physically icky (I’m straight!!)
Yeah, that’s a concern. But these types of guys typically understand consent, so will respect that.
You have given lemmy very little to go on here, so pick whichever answer you prefer.
Hypothesis 1: The culture of which you are a part has established gender roles which lead to its women typically being more emotionally open and empathic than the menfolk.
Hypothesis 2: For similar cultural reasons, women around you tend to favour a communications style that happens to be more compatible with the one you have developed for yourself, leading to easier mutual understanding.
Hypothesis 3: You have some hang-ups of your own about sex which are making you more receptive to female company than male.
I’m not sure about H1, because I’m younger in years than the number of relocations I had in my life
H3 plays definitely a part into my perception tho!
In my experience, as a man, this simply doesn’t happen.
Men are rejected by both men and women when they’re emotionally vulnerable.
Source: failed to complete suicide in 2014. Lost 95% of my friends, including ones that were active in an org that supposedly worked to prevent suicide.
Same in my experience
Show emotion, get beat down and ridiculed
I hear you. I’m struggling with my mental health daily since I was 19, decades ago. 0 friends. I didn’t have many before but lost the few I had once I went through a crisis.
Lesson learned: bottle it all up, definitely don’t bring it up in, well, any circumstances at all, and you’re golden. Struggling/weak? Garbage that’s only fit to be disposed of.
And that is today in our very “educated and evolved” West. If things were even worse decades ago I don’t even want to know.
The therapist is basically the safest person to bring it up to
I agree that socialization is a big part of this tendency, as other commenters are saying. However, having experienced living with a testosterone dominant body and an estrogen dominant body, I’ve found that it was much harder for me to process other people’s emotions on T. While I would care about people and what they were expressing, I often would feel overloaded by strong emotions. On E I don’t notice that as much, and have a lot more patience and capacity to emotionally engage with others.
I’m sure this stuff varies a lot from person to person, and there isn’t one single factor that determines how men and women would typically behave. But in my own life there’s a pretty big hormonal component to this
Find the right men. There are 4 billion men out there and many are able to communicate and be there for friends. It may take moving into some peripheral spaces where different experiences and points of view are appreciated.
Pretty much that.
Because on the whole, boys are never taught to deal with any emotion but anger. All others must be suppressed lest you look weak…
To listen to another man express painful emotions means they may have to acknowledge that they are not masters of the universe and perfect, stoic gods in every way and in every aspect of their lives.
It takes real courage to allow yourself to be emotionally vulnerable around others and the vast majority of man are never able to to this with anyone but their partners (and will never admit that that they have) and most not even then.
To listen to another man express painful emotions means they may have to acknowledge that they are not masters of the universe and perfect, stoic gods in every way and in every aspect of their lives.
This is really helpful to hear
Glad to hear it helped.
These mags may also be helpful for you.
None of us are perfect, none of us have all the answers and none of us have control over this random, erratic world we live in.
Who’s downvoting this lol
The same people who can’t listen to men having emotions.