You are still not thinking of the women who are also struggling to get jobs, who are poor as well. Women also struggle to pay rent or to feed their families too. You are contrasting women against struggling people as if they couldn’t be in the same position.
So not only women in this field already need to fight an uphill battle against the industry’s predisposition to hire men over women, now they are having to fight over opportunities that had been aimed at them to begin with. Don’t you think they will also face real financial struggles because of this?
It’s not a matter of caring about representation or material needs. It’s an opportunity to provide material needs through representation.
I don’t know where you are from, but I’m not american or european if that’s what you are assuming. Yet there are still women struggling where I live. I assume the same is true all over the world.
Surely, there is a point to be made regarding our need to pressure wealthy people so that more poorer people have means to live. But how does pulling the rug under a poor woman have anything to do with that? That’s not even the same discussion, that’s just changing topics from the ruthlessness being displayed.
And you know what, as a man, if I were in a situation of need as well I wouldn’t look favorably over people who are so intent on tripping whoever is around them to cut in line. Desperation is real for sure, but for that very reason solidarity is important.
Of course I am aware of that. Of course there are women who are in the same situation, or worse. Of course there are black women who are even in a worse place. Of course there are old black women who are in even a worse place. The fact is, there are people who need a job, and once this is the case, I don’t put any responsibility on any of them if they take the spot that could be taken by someone more deserving. This is simply a decision that doesn’t make sense. The responsibility is on those who decide how many jobs exist, to layoff people even with record profits (which coincidentally, are all the sponsors of this fair) and so on.
But how does pulling the rug under a poor woman have anything to do with that? That’s not even the same discussion, that’s just changing topics from the ruthlessness being displayed.
How is it trying to get a job (paying 600$+!) “pulling the rug” from anybody? This is what I don’t get. Literally, anything you do, you are affecting society in a way that damages someone who has less means than you. You are buying something -> you are marginally increasing the demand and therefore the price.
It’s not like I don’t understand your idea, I simply don’t think it makes any sense to expect such behavior to other people who are also victims of the same system. I have no interest whatsoever in fragmenting the working class creating a hierarchy of who is more victimized, this is a pointless exercises which is reactionary in nature.
if I were in a situation of need as well I wouldn’t look favorably over people who are so intent on tripping whoever is around them to cut in line
So if you apply for a job and someone else has already applied, you leave it? What does ‘cutting the line’ means in this context? We are talking about paying to go to a job fair meant for women, which also probably means that your chance to get recruited are much lower than a woman because companies are nowadays very interested in boosting their diversity metrics. And I think this is the case because for some people the struggle ends there: you get 40% of women in tech, there you go, now you are a good company, thanks Microsoft/Apple/etc… This is why I think that this particular version of feminism is inherently bourgeois and reactionary.
I have no interest whatsoever in fragmenting the working class creating a hierarchy of who is more victimized
This is very lofty talk for someone fully willing to take away opportunities intentionally aimed at someone else who needs it.
Don’t you think snatching that opportunity is going to cause fragmentation? Do you think women or minorities stop having material struggles as long as you don’t think of them as a distinct group? That’s not how it works. If it was, then before feminism, working class women would have equal material conditions to working class men, and that is absolutely not how it went.
And yeah, there are people who are even more disadvantaged, which also results in worse material conditions. The solution is not to stop thinking about it.
For all your talk about working class, what you propose is nothing that helps the working class in a systemic or immediate way, it’s just “looking out for #1” and then pointing fingers at the system if anyone judges you for it. I guess your logic is that if you are working class and you help yourself you are helping the working class? Funny, but that’s not it.
You know exactly what “cutting the line” means here. There are other job fairs and recruitment opportunities where these guys could go to. However less likely they may be to be hired, whoever does is taking away an opportunity that a woman needed. However insincere the companies may be at doing this, however this may not be enough to create a better society where everyone can have a decent life, these women need jobs regardless. You know, material conditions, the thing you were saying was much more important.
This is very lofty talk for someone fully willing to take away opportunities intentionally aimed at someone else who needs it.
Taking that opportunity (which specifically, I think is also very little) is someone who also needs it. You can create this hierarchy even among the women at that very fair, in fact.
Don’t you think snatching that opportunity is going to cause fragmentation?
I think not, if framed under the right perspective.
Do you think women or minorities stop having material struggles as long as you don’t think of them as a distinct group? That’s not how it works. If it was, then before feminism, working class women would have equal material conditions to working class men, and that is absolutely not how it went.
Absolutely I don’t. And I am not claiming that the problem is solved by “meritocracy” or by just stopping thinking about this. I am suggesting that it is not responsibility of the victims to self-police and sort themselves in order of priority.
I guess your logic is that if you are working class and you help yourself you are helping the working class? Funny, but that’s not it.
That’s not what I am suggesting. I am personally just thinking in very pragmatic terms. Realistically the struggle of the working class requires strong unions and harsh battles. How are you going to build a union when I - a male - see you -a woman (but you can pick any other category) - as something else as myself, as belonging to another group? To me building strong unions requires a mutual recognition of class belonging, and this is what I think helps in a systemic way. Nothing systemic is also going to change if X% more women would be hired by Microsoft/Apple etc., with the difference that if you reach that situation having alienated and fragmented workers, that’s also where you stop.
There are other job fairs and recruitment opportunities where these guys could go to.
I have no idea why they chose to attend. What I know is that you don’t spend 600-1200$ for the hell of it if you need a job.
whoever does is taking away an opportunity that a woman needed
And how is this different from any other job? I mean, ultimately you can apply this logic to any job you are going to take. Realistically, any company that will hire you is going to have a small % of women, so any job you are taking, you are taking it from a woman (or a black person, etc.). I really fail to understand how your logic works outside the specific context of the job fair. Are you saying that besides this job fair, then no concerns anymore should exist about under represented categories?
these women need jobs regardless. You know, material conditions, the thing you were saying was much more important.
Of course, but it’s a matter of deciding the strategy to reach that objective. From my point of view, for the reasons above, I disagree with this particular one.
Realistically the struggle of the working class requires strong unions and harsh battles. How are you going to build a union when I - a male - see you -a woman (but you can pick any other category) - as something else as myself, as belonging to another group? To me building strong unions requires a mutual recognition of class belonging, and this is what I think helps in a systemic way. Nothing systemic is also going to change if X% more women would be hired by Microsoft/Apple etc., with the difference that if you reach that situation having alienated and fragmented workers, that’s also where you stop.
Absolutely nothing about taking jobs aimed at women helps or even relates to this.
What, you recognize a woman as your equal in class struggles so you kick her in the shins and shoves her off the way? Whoa, the class solidarity truly brings tears to may eyes.
It’s like you are intermittently switching into a whole different discussion. However much you may talk of worker class solidarity and I partially agree, these guys aren’t showing any solidarity.
And how is this different from any other job?
Because we are talking about positions indicated to women, who already have a hard enough time getting tech jobs. Who also need them to live. I get what you are saying but here you flipped back to “I need a job, sucks to be them”, not a drop of solidarity to be found. This is different because the whole point of that one fair is being different, if you want to chase jobs for whoever makes it, you can look for them in other places. It’s not like this is the single opportunity anyone will ever get.
This isn’t difficult to understand. It just seems like you cannot for a moment think of what your life would be like if you were one of said women, rather than one of the men rushing to take the job by any means necessary, anyone around them be damned.
Sorry, we are going in circle, and I feel there is no point for me to rehash my thoughts for the N-th time. Either I am no expressing myself well enough, the language barrier is impeding mutual understanding or something else.
I fundamentally disagree with some of the premises of your arguments (“taking” - like one could choose - jobs aimed at women, etc.). I will close it here.
You are still not thinking of the women who are also struggling to get jobs, who are poor as well. Women also struggle to pay rent or to feed their families too. You are contrasting women against struggling people as if they couldn’t be in the same position.
So not only women in this field already need to fight an uphill battle against the industry’s predisposition to hire men over women, now they are having to fight over opportunities that had been aimed at them to begin with. Don’t you think they will also face real financial struggles because of this?
It’s not a matter of caring about representation or material needs. It’s an opportunity to provide material needs through representation.
I don’t know where you are from, but I’m not american or european if that’s what you are assuming. Yet there are still women struggling where I live. I assume the same is true all over the world.
Surely, there is a point to be made regarding our need to pressure wealthy people so that more poorer people have means to live. But how does pulling the rug under a poor woman have anything to do with that? That’s not even the same discussion, that’s just changing topics from the ruthlessness being displayed.
And you know what, as a man, if I were in a situation of need as well I wouldn’t look favorably over people who are so intent on tripping whoever is around them to cut in line. Desperation is real for sure, but for that very reason solidarity is important.
Of course I am aware of that. Of course there are women who are in the same situation, or worse. Of course there are black women who are even in a worse place. Of course there are old black women who are in even a worse place. The fact is, there are people who need a job, and once this is the case, I don’t put any responsibility on any of them if they take the spot that could be taken by someone more deserving. This is simply a decision that doesn’t make sense. The responsibility is on those who decide how many jobs exist, to layoff people even with record profits (which coincidentally, are all the sponsors of this fair) and so on.
How is it trying to get a job (paying 600$+!) “pulling the rug” from anybody? This is what I don’t get. Literally, anything you do, you are affecting society in a way that damages someone who has less means than you. You are buying something -> you are marginally increasing the demand and therefore the price.
It’s not like I don’t understand your idea, I simply don’t think it makes any sense to expect such behavior to other people who are also victims of the same system. I have no interest whatsoever in fragmenting the working class creating a hierarchy of who is more victimized, this is a pointless exercises which is reactionary in nature.
So if you apply for a job and someone else has already applied, you leave it? What does ‘cutting the line’ means in this context? We are talking about paying to go to a job fair meant for women, which also probably means that your chance to get recruited are much lower than a woman because companies are nowadays very interested in boosting their diversity metrics. And I think this is the case because for some people the struggle ends there: you get 40% of women in tech, there you go, now you are a good company, thanks Microsoft/Apple/etc… This is why I think that this particular version of feminism is inherently bourgeois and reactionary.
This is very lofty talk for someone fully willing to take away opportunities intentionally aimed at someone else who needs it.
Don’t you think snatching that opportunity is going to cause fragmentation? Do you think women or minorities stop having material struggles as long as you don’t think of them as a distinct group? That’s not how it works. If it was, then before feminism, working class women would have equal material conditions to working class men, and that is absolutely not how it went.
And yeah, there are people who are even more disadvantaged, which also results in worse material conditions. The solution is not to stop thinking about it.
For all your talk about working class, what you propose is nothing that helps the working class in a systemic or immediate way, it’s just “looking out for #1” and then pointing fingers at the system if anyone judges you for it. I guess your logic is that if you are working class and you help yourself you are helping the working class? Funny, but that’s not it.
You know exactly what “cutting the line” means here. There are other job fairs and recruitment opportunities where these guys could go to. However less likely they may be to be hired, whoever does is taking away an opportunity that a woman needed. However insincere the companies may be at doing this, however this may not be enough to create a better society where everyone can have a decent life, these women need jobs regardless. You know, material conditions, the thing you were saying was much more important.
Taking that opportunity (which specifically, I think is also very little) is someone who also needs it. You can create this hierarchy even among the women at that very fair, in fact.
I think not, if framed under the right perspective.
Absolutely I don’t. And I am not claiming that the problem is solved by “meritocracy” or by just stopping thinking about this. I am suggesting that it is not responsibility of the victims to self-police and sort themselves in order of priority.
That’s not what I am suggesting. I am personally just thinking in very pragmatic terms. Realistically the struggle of the working class requires strong unions and harsh battles. How are you going to build a union when I - a male - see you -a woman (but you can pick any other category) - as something else as myself, as belonging to another group? To me building strong unions requires a mutual recognition of class belonging, and this is what I think helps in a systemic way. Nothing systemic is also going to change if X% more women would be hired by Microsoft/Apple etc., with the difference that if you reach that situation having alienated and fragmented workers, that’s also where you stop.
I have no idea why they chose to attend. What I know is that you don’t spend 600-1200$ for the hell of it if you need a job.
And how is this different from any other job? I mean, ultimately you can apply this logic to any job you are going to take. Realistically, any company that will hire you is going to have a small % of women, so any job you are taking, you are taking it from a woman (or a black person, etc.). I really fail to understand how your logic works outside the specific context of the job fair. Are you saying that besides this job fair, then no concerns anymore should exist about under represented categories?
Of course, but it’s a matter of deciding the strategy to reach that objective. From my point of view, for the reasons above, I disagree with this particular one.
Absolutely nothing about taking jobs aimed at women helps or even relates to this.
What, you recognize a woman as your equal in class struggles so you kick her in the shins and shoves her off the way? Whoa, the class solidarity truly brings tears to may eyes.
It’s like you are intermittently switching into a whole different discussion. However much you may talk of worker class solidarity and I partially agree, these guys aren’t showing any solidarity.
Because we are talking about positions indicated to women, who already have a hard enough time getting tech jobs. Who also need them to live. I get what you are saying but here you flipped back to “I need a job, sucks to be them”, not a drop of solidarity to be found. This is different because the whole point of that one fair is being different, if you want to chase jobs for whoever makes it, you can look for them in other places. It’s not like this is the single opportunity anyone will ever get.
This isn’t difficult to understand. It just seems like you cannot for a moment think of what your life would be like if you were one of said women, rather than one of the men rushing to take the job by any means necessary, anyone around them be damned.
Sorry, we are going in circle, and I feel there is no point for me to rehash my thoughts for the N-th time. Either I am no expressing myself well enough, the language barrier is impeding mutual understanding or something else.
I fundamentally disagree with some of the premises of your arguments (“taking” - like one could choose - jobs aimed at women, etc.). I will close it here.