There have been very very bad experiences with Daniel Mikay, the former (?) lead dev of GrapheneOS.
GrapheneOS is an awesome project. It doesnt suit everyone, as it only focuses on security, doesnt add many LineageOS features, ships no Appstore preinstalled and pretty much promotes hunting down your APKs from Git* releases, doesnt work with microG, …
But its a really valuable piece of software, extremely critical for the opensource community, as its really the only degoogled and secure Android there is.
Now I am close to ditching it… again… as I am pissed off by “the community”, or more these/this weird anonymous people/individual identifying as “GrapheneOS” on their self-controlled Matrix server.
Background
Not wanna cry here, but giving the scenery:
I went into their room and discussed a bit. Points where pretty much:
- Android is a deviation of Linux with its own Kernel and way different release numbers
- it sucks being dependend on a big Corp for their Android Desktop, as there simply is on Custom ROM creating a different one
- Linux is awesome, as it is so free. Android immutable model could totally work with more customizability like desktops, and still be secure.
What happened? I got perma-banned for “doubling down on spreading misinformation”.
Prior I went into a Private chat with this “GrapheneOS” person, and asked what exactly where the points where I spreaded misinformation. They said “Android is Linux. You have no idea what you are talking about but think you do. You cant spread misinformation in our community anymore.”
After these messages and still no explanations, they left the private chat and blocked be from rejoining.
Wow. This is what a self-run server can also look like it seems.
Well, I guess I will be switching to Calyx or DivestOS soon, if I have no community to discuss in.
I would be happy if some critical voices could join the server and do some constructive discussions. Right now its a forced echo chamber.
PS: If that was you Daniel, please just take a pause. You did some great work but personally you act extremely toxic. This is not how to talk to people.
These discussions are worthless, because of the complexly with Linux kernels. Saying android is Linux is the same as saying macOS or iOS are Linux. They only have in common to be a kernel driven Unix system. Stop there and be good, the only other mentionable opposite is DOS.
I run gOS and be good with it but I don’t follow all of their thoughts. Security and privacy are two different things. gOS follows the security rabbit hole. Doing more for privacy is in the users hand. This is better than ROM who build their ecosystem the other way around.
Small nitpick: Mac OS is BSD
And BSD isn’t Unix?
BSD is Unix. Linux is Linux.
BSD and Linux are Posix compliant. They run different kernels, so they are different operating systems.
Linux is not Unix, it’s unix-like.
Technically Apple is BSD not Linux if we’re going that way
Yeah, they are a bit egotistical. I don’t use GrapheneOS and would not use GrapheneOS over other secure versions of android due to their attitude.
I’ve been in the GrapheneOS matrix lurking for a while, and it’s absolutely jam packed with toxic weirdos.
Great ROM though!
Toxic weirdos make the best software
I wouldn’t engage with them personally. I use grapheneOS. I would use their matrix for support only, but we already know the community is a little… errrr… defensive. Definitely not the place to debate stuff like this, and those folk involved are pretty bright anyway.
“Android immutable model could totally work with more customizability like desktops, and still be secure” - I read this, and don’t know enough, but I’m wondering if this is a selling point of a rival of theirs. I think they’re very precise and ardent on secure. Some of their rivals allow more flexibility, and less secure, so it could have been a conversation they’ve had millions of times with people trolling them. Obviously, they’re quite sensitive, and react way beyond the pale, but good policy is don’t troll folk that may need mental health help.
The fact you know Daniel, and the history, and went in their to debate is really quite questionable. “I wonder what would happen if I take this box of matches into this room full of flammable material”. It’s weird you’re asking people to go in and debate with them. Why are you advocating this? It’s like you’re wanting to troll them, and while there is often not excusing some of the actions on that project, what is your goal? Subtle trolling is a thing.
Either way, use what software you want. Their matrix is run by them, and they define the rules of how they operate. It isn’t a public entity, it’s a private club.
Patient: When I do this, it hurts.
Doctor: Well don’t do that then.
I’m well pleased with my gOS on it’s own merits, I occasionally hear things like this (glad Daniel Mikay is out, hope he gets help), but do not engage. Maybe this is a sign for you to do similar…
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Allowing is a strong term. Some random internet user has a beef with another random internet user on a private matrix chat.
Who’s going to disallow that? It’s not like graphene OS the organization came to Lemmy and started arguing with people. They’re not posting a manifesto to Mastodon.
So saying we’re not going to let people have private conversations unopposed on their own hardware on their own servers, is a really strong position.
Makes me not want to use it
I use GrapheneOS but have zero contact with the so-called “community”. The project itself is awesome but as with many Linux/OS projects a lot of the people around it aren’t all the way there.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with what you’ve said. Them perma-banning you for “misinformation” instead of actually engaging in a discussion with you about it says all I need to know about that kind of community IMO, and it’s not one I’d want to be a part of… regardless of how amazing and secure their OS is.
The unfortunate thing is, I think it’s hard to maintain projects like GrapheneOS without people like that on the team - the community’s principled nature is kind of reflected in how watertight and robust the OS is
Yeah it ain’t new. Daniel has been a shithead from the start. You should have seen the drama in the copperhead os and the linux-hardened IRC channels. But also with his old business partner who he dragged in the mud for no good reason.
He’s also a huge part of the reason, with other KSPP folks, why Spender went private with GRSEC. A huge loss for the Linux world.
Please don’t advocate brigading. Talking about issue is one thing, but asking people to go attack another community is a completely different thing.
On a second review, you should look at your own well-being. No internet chat should make you cry. Or almost cry.
The opinions of random people online, have little to no bearing on your real life. People tend to be more antagonistic online, where is the same person in person can be polite, understanding, nuanced.
If the internet is getting to you, it’s good to take a break, decompress, do other things. Don’t get focused on an echo chamber
I think they didn’t mean “not wanna cry here” literally, but in the sense that they didn’t list the following points just to complain
Being upset about being ostracized from a community is s totally normal reaction, what the hell are you talking about lol. It’s normal to be upset you’re kicked out of something. It’s normal to be upset they won’t listen to your explanation and reverse the ban.
They can be upset. As somebody seeing the post on the all-channel, it’s strange that they start and finish the post with pointing out the lead dev when there is no clear sign that he is involved.
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I run GrapheneOS too. Fortunately there are so few issues that I can just focus on using it, no need to engage the community around it.
