- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmit.online
Google’s claim that search users have choice is “bogus,” Microsoft CEO tells judge::Google’s search dominance creates “vicious cycle,” Satya Nadella testified.
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Dear Microsoft: I saw your shenanigans from Windows 3.1 onward, you gotta stop making me agree with you in 2023 because it makes me feel dirty. Thanks.
Microsoft is hardly one to be involved in this. They’re just as bad in different ways. But. As far as search goes, I think it’s incredibly simple to change search engines but the problem is Google doesn’t give users that choice up front when installing chrome but even if they did most people don’t give a shit and will just use Google anyway.
And the fact that Chrome has a virtual monopoly on the browser market isn’t going to help them either. Other than Firefox and Safari, every other browser is Chrome, and most web devs only test on Chrome.
It’s IE all over again, and I’m a bit scared that iOS’s app store restrictions are the only thing stopping Chrome from being a complete monopoly.
While one browser dominating is obviously bad, they at least won the market [roughly] fair and square. Unlike Microsoft which bundles it with their OS and makes it impossible to uninstall.
And harasses you ceaselessly to use it, advertises itself if you look up Chrome in it, gets reset back to default on updates for a bunch of file types.
Sincerely, a Firefox user.
Ever try using Google’s sites in Firefox or Safari? Most people use Google services and started using Chrome because of Google hounding them to switch. Hell, every major site says to just use Chrome now, and if a real Chrome ever comes out for iPhone, people will just download Chrome because it’s what they use on their computer.
Sincerely, a frustrated Firefox and Safari user
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Absolutely. I’m not buying the “fair and square” argument. Firefox won over IE fair and square, by being better in every way, but that didn’t last long enough.
There are really only two search engines. Its either Google or Bing. The others exist, but they use Google’s and/or Bing’s search results.
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Thanks, I didn’t know!
since when uses ddg google or bing ?
DDG is Bing by proxy, has been for ages. A while back they had a controversy for having microsoft trackers or something like that, and mentioned it was some stipulation for using Bing results. But they still backed off on that anyway.
DuckDuckGo’s results are a compilation of “over 400” sources according to itself, including Bing, Yahoo! Search BOSS, Wolfram Alpha, Yandex, and its own web crawler (the DuckDuckBot); but none from Google. It also uses data from crowdsourced sites such as Wikipedia, to populate knowledge panel boxes to the right of the search results.
Source: Wikipedia
So it’s definitely not a “proxy to Bing” but it does use data from Bing.
I think it’s incredibly simple to change search engines
It’s not though, because the other search engines all suck. I have changed my search engine, but I still keep going back to google all the time because it’s often the only way I can actually find the page I’m looking for.
Microsoft’s claim is they can’t create an accurate search engine because they just don’t have enough users to have reliable data on which pages should be presented to the user. Google has better results because they have more users, and they will never lose that advantage unless there is government intervention.
I don’t think Google should be punished for having a superior product. If users prefer to use Google then the market has spoken. Users can still use Bing even though it sucks.
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I feel I have less of a choice in operating system than I do browsers or search. Just saying.
Modern Linux is amazing, just jyi
I’ve boarded the Linux train but not everyone can replace their OS nor troubleshoot issues, and good luck bringing your computer to a repair shop if you do run Linux. For the average person, they need someone to help them whether it’s Windows or Linux.
Is it really a valid option for people outside the tech industry who don’t know programming and who play PC games?
That’s an honest question, not a snide question.
Generally, you don’t need to know any programming in order to install and get most mainstream distros working on your machine. Most apps/drivers are one click installs. PC Gaming is still the kicker. There are some compatibility issues, but more and more games work as time progresses.
I would say though that it’s not really a great choice unless you are already pretty tech savvy. And these days, less and less people seem to even know how to actually use a computer, let alone one that runs Linux.
Thanks for the response! Sounds like it might be a few more years off for me then. But I am continually more disgusted with windows… Might make the switch sooner on that account.
Honestly, gaming on Steam is pretty straightforward on Linux. You just have to go into the Steam settings and allow Proton (the compatibility layer that allows you to run Windows games on Linux) to not restrict your game list to tested games. It’s a single checkbox. If you do anything more than just play the games (ie., you install mods for the games) you’ll need to dig in a bit more. I suppose that’s the same for Windows, though.
Really, I think the issue is more Windows applications that aren’t available for Linux if you’re a professional. People need their Adobe software.
Additionally, you’ll need to be able to troubleshoot and fix issues if you don’t have someone to do it for you, just like on Windows. The difference is that Windows can be supported by almost any computer enthusiast whereas tons haven’t learned the ins and outs of Linux.
Yes installing Linux mint is just as easy as installing windows. It runs almost the same as windows but faster.
Funny they should say that, considering that Bing is deeply integrated into Windows, and users have literally no choice of another search engine.
And if you accidentally open edge you can’t even close the application without going through the setup process.
They literally tried to force you to make a Microsoft account as set up and make it seem like you have no choice other than to make one.
Microsoft is more guilty than Google
Pro tip: enter no@thankyou.com and any password to bypass it
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Yes
They don’t realize how much they fucked up when they forced users to download the Bing app in order to use GPT in Bing.
They had the perfect chance to hijack Google by making users switch their default search engine in Chrome. But no, they had to get greedy as fuck, and now Bing is dead again.
They went all-in and lost. Who is using Bing search now? Nobody, people want to use Chrome.
I’d have probably used Bing for a longer time and maybe would have gotten used to it (only for GPT) if they hadn’t forced me to download their app.
While i agree with them, i do think Microsoft is attempting even worse steps in turning bing/edge into the next google: literally cant open windows help links on any other browser, the task bar’s search functions are bing only, popups about using edge instead of chrome, defaulting 100 file types into edge.
Those big companiew are shit. They all attempt the same stuff while blaming others for succeeding in doing so.
I do actively choose not to use Bing, though.
Real choice is when your OS sells you boner pills.
Hypocrite! Every time there’s a Windows update it makes Edge the default browser again. Without the user asking. They should look in mirror!
It does? I don’t recall that happening.
It sneakily asks for Microsoft to select the most secure configuration for your system (or something similar)
Which means setting edge and bing as default
Today I was working on a 2019 server. I clicked on IE to download Firefox and it asked me if I wanted Edge. I didn’t want to do anything that might interfere with existing services running, so I said no. I took a phone call, and when I came back … welcome to Edge, I’m so fuckin great - let’s get started!
I’ve been doing this since the 80s, but this was a surprisingly fresh experience for me.
I’ve never had that happen and I’m always keeping up to date with Windows updates
Probably you are not selecting the “recommended settings” in the welcome wizard after a feature update.
I also have never had another welcome wizard appear after any update. Only get that after a fresh install. I just update, reboot pc, and it just boots up as normal to desktop with nothing extra.
Perhaps it differs per region? I’ve had at least two together with the upgrade to Windows 11 here in Europe.
I’m in the UK, but maybe it is different
No it doesn’t 🤣
It just asks anytime you use a Windows app to use Edge.
Microsoft has been making users’ choices “bogus” since at least Windows 95.
Nah, they had some BS going on in DOS I’m pretty sure, too.
Yeah. What they did to DR-DOS, for example (though I guess that was still related to Windows).
Things could be better, but it’s a far cry from the IE monopoly days. It’s amusing to hear Microsoft complain. DDG and Kagi are both very good search engines and DDG is a built-in option on iOS. Kagi even requires a fee and it’s still blowing up in popularity. I think the real issue for Microsoft is nobody chooses Bing.
I use bing. They’ve indexed way more porn than anyone else.
Me too, they also pay me to use it
A better search engine is out there, it’s just not free.
I love it. Been an early adopter and uses it all day long, and it just works. Being able to rank sites and getting search results that never show up on Google is worth every dollar. It feels like you actually see the entire web with this search engine again.
SaaS is almost as big of an issue as the tech monopolies that sell them, imo. I’d be more interested if it was a one time purchase.
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Subjectively, it might be better for you. Sure.
It’s objectively better, functionally, than Google. Results tend to be better, more accurate, less ad-riddled, and you’re able to manually boost or block links to improve your own results.
Checked the link. I literally can’t buy it as a European
Because credit cards are a scam I refuse to partake in, and they seem to only accept American bank transfers
y’all don’t have debit cards in europe?
Not the visa or MasterCard kinds that you can give to sites like this. It happens rather often that I want to throw money at the internet, but simply can’t. Other examples are Wolfram alpha and chatgpt plus
They also accept cryptocurrency via OpenNode.
Click the small link below the plans on the pricing page:
For paying via PayPal or OpenNode, or without auto-renew, please click here.
Details: https://help.kagi.com/kagi/plans/payment-methods.html
Oh, PayPal works. Thanks
No problem! Hope you enjoy! :)
Oh like neeva. Might give it a look. Right now i use brave search
I’ve seen this mentioned so much, I’m gonna have to check it out.
I am on my trial period and am going to sign up when its over.
I don’t feel trapped into Google for search… the fact is their search engine gives me better results than everyone else’s. It is not like they are restricting my access to others.
A few years ago my work had Microsoft staff in doing an SQL assessment and the guy doing the works spent a good 5 mins trying to find a Microsoft article in Bing. Eventually he asked me to look away, switched to Google and found it as the top result. I asked why he requested I look away and he said it was against their rules to use Google lol
their search engine is better than everyone else’s
It’s not though. You never even get to see what the competition would be because they lock competitors out of the market.
I’m really happy about the case against them. This trial is uncovering a bunch of dirty tricks they use. They have far too much power and far too much of our data and are abusing it.
Google is 100% better than the rest. I switched to DDG a few months back and I regularly have to go back to google for technical stuff. DDG oftentimes does not even serve the homepage of a searched company on the first page of the results, lol.
I switched to DDG recently after realising how much worse Google is for giving good results. After doing so on a trial basis, I’m now switching on all my devices as it’s just overall a better search experience for me. (Even if DDG is just Bing.)
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I think it really depends on what you’re looking for. Google tends to be better about technical stuff, but Bing did really well for me in the old “Bing it on” challenge if I was searching for pop culture or game related stuff. Google always won for code and troubleshooting.
You know what would be refreshing? If someone in business could actually hold themselves accountable. For literally anything.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
On Monday, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella showed up at the Google antitrust trial to back the Department of Justice’s argument that “Google used unfair tactics”—most significantly, default search contracts—to block opportunities for search competitors like Bing, The Wall Street Journal reported.
At the trial, Nadella said that in Silicon Valley, Internet search is “the biggest no-fly zone,” which the Journal characterized as “the hardest market to crack.”
Third-party data showed that “Microsoft’s share of the search market has hardly budged” since adding AI features to Bing, but Google’s lead trial counsel, John Schmidtlein, argued that this was “a direct result of Microsoft’s missteps in Internet search,” not due to Google’s command of the market.
Nadella also expressed significant concern that emerging AI technology—rather than providing opportunities for competitors like Bing—could ultimately further entrench Google’s dominance in search without the court’s interference.
“In fact, if anything, I worry a lot that—even in spite of my enthusiasm that there is a new angle with AI—this vicious cycle that I’m trapped in could even become even more vicious because the defaults get reinforced.” He added: “This going to be even worse of a nightmare to make progress in search, because there’s a new avenue” for Google to “lock up essentially” the “thing that feeds” AI models, “which is content.”
Nadella told the court that to Microsoft, search is “a hard game to make any breakthroughs, but no one can accuse us of not being persistent.”
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