As The Intercept pointed out this week, this is Israel’s 9/11 in that it is a horrific event they didn’t see coming, but when you stop to look at the powder keg they created, they absolutely should have.
And just like 9/11, they were warned of the attack weeks in advance but were still woefully unprepared to protect their citizens.
I’m worried that they DID know, and are using this as an excuse to further their agenda against Palestinians.
With the Netanyahu government, that’s the more plausible explanation.
Well, it worked in the US /s
Well, it really did work in the US. This is literally what happened at Pearl Harbor.
Roosevelt knew the attack was coming, very much so, our intelligence was good. But he needed the attack to happen, so he let it happen.
At the time, Europe was at war and our allies desperately needed help, but the US had been dragging it’s heels about getting involved for years. Roosevelt wanted to enter the war and support our allies, but congress just didn’t want to make the official declaration of war. But after the attack on Pearl harbor, that declaration came in short order, just as Roosevelt knew it would.
This is untrue. This is a false conspiracy theory that people keep repeating that has no facts to back it up. This one bugs me because my grandfather was in the merchant Marines and was stationed there when this happened. People parroting that untrue fact drove him bonkers.
This is untrue
Which part?
Did the people stationed there get warned? Did merchant Marines have access to top brass intelligence reports? Did Roosevelt have a different motivation? Did Pearl Harbor not happen…?
That’s sadly a possibility.
What was the prior situation with the reservists? Did they backtrack on their no show threats before the war broke or was the war what forced them to show up
It’s not that easy. There is constant information coming in all the time and intelligent agents need to parse signal from noise. It’s not every single bit of intelligence regarding an attack comes into fruition. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. This is an extremely difficult signal detection problem, one with lives at stake.
Also they did have radar signatures of the attack incoming but radar tech was new and they didn’t trust it.
Please tell me you’re being facetious, because radar has been in use for more than 80 years.
80 years ago is the 1940’s. But the report was ignored due to lack of training. The way I heard, it was due to radar being relatively new, untested, and thus untrusted.
I’m confused. When did this conversation divert to Pearl Harbor?
I think they responded to the wrong person. There’s a pearl harbor tangent happening above this.
That would make the radar tech very old and likely you could not trust their work either.
Well by that logic, we should be really suspicious of tech like the wheel or the plow.
Which is why I have never used a plow before and never plan to.
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I believe that radar should be read as radar system. That is to say it was a new radar system that had not been fully learned yet not that radar as a concept was new.
What are you talking about?
And just like 9/11, their response is sowing death to countless civilians.
when you stop to look at the powder keg they created
Wait until you expand it by a few more years:
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By not forcing Palestinians out of their homes to house Americans: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/4/if-i-dont-steal-your-home-someone-else-will-jewish-settler-says
By not voting in a government that openly supports the eradication of a people that they claim are not a culture: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/no-such-thing-as-palestinian-people-top-israeli-minister-says
By not commuting further war crimes by doling our collective punishment on civilians: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-opt-israel-must-lift-illegal-and-inhumane-blockade-on-gaza-as-power-plant-runs-out-of-fuel/
This video was posted in May 2021, and is still relevant: https://youtu.be/INCXqWzH5vk?si=xxvSkiBcRtkZwZVa
War crimes are being committed on both sides, but one side is in a far better political, economic, and defensive position. Treaties and councils have been written, but if the stronger party decides they want to break those agreements, and suffers no repercussions from doing so (so far as having essentially full support from the US government at one point), what can the smaller group do? Roll over and let their people be extinguished by a callous and racist government?
I do not condone attacks from either side, but saying that Palestine is “suffering the consequences”, while ignoring the actions that led to this attack (which could be seen as Israel suffering their own consequences) is short sighted and cruel.
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Just look at is the body count. Israel kills or maims 10 or more Palestinians for every one Israeli casualty. That sounds less like defense and more like overwhelming offense.
You are speaking of Palestinians as a monolith. If you apply the same logic to Israelis, Palestinians are perfectly justified in attacking them. Hamas and Likud are both terrorist organizations. Targeting civilians is a war crime no matter who does it or why they say it’s justified.
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So you think it’s also ok to hold Israel as whole responsible for the actions of monsters like Ariel Sharon and Benjamin Netanyahu? Should we hold all Russians responsible for Putin, and blame all Americans for the Iraq war?
I’m sure they put it up to a democratic vote and only went through with it after getting the unanimous agreement of every single Palestinian in Gaza.
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Did you even read my comment?
I know I’m taking to a shill or a bot or just someone who isn’t actually aware of what’s going on, but you’re grossly misinformed.
Is this your default reaction to seeing something you disagree with?
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Amen, we can all agree on that point.
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The bigger problem is that they probably knew. They where informed by Egypt intelligence…
If that is true, then they might have let it happen as an excuse to take Gaza in retribution
Let’s not spread conspiracy theories without good sources
US Congressional members with security clearances corroborated this, did they not?
They didn’t corroborate that Israel let this happen as justification to level Gaza. That’s the conspiracy theory the user above is urging not to spread.
Fair point. Though to me it’s of little relevance; for either they were grossly incompetent or they let it happen intentionally.
Given the historical evidence behind the Shock Doctrine, I’m convinced that is what’s playing out here.
So, Israel’s 9/11 then? It wasn’t a coincidence that NORAD was on training exercises that day.
Hamas is a death cult openly using human shields, so no surprise really.
It also has to be noted that a huge element behind low Israeli casualties is the Iron Dome.
If you plotted a chart of attempted civilian deaths, you’d get a very very different picture. Personally, I’m not meaningfully less upset at someone who tries to murder me just because they don’t succeed.
Iron dome didn’t come online until 2011 so you can see pre-iron dome on the chart, 2008-2011 and it’s not much different. If you do go out even further like another person posted you’ll see that comparatively high Palestinian deaths characterize this conflict. Before Hamas, before the iron dome Palestiniana have been the overwhelming victims of this conflict.
It’s a group of people with leftover/smuggled weapons from other anti-Israel interests vs easily the most organized military in the region.
That doesn’t really mean much to Americans. Christianity is a death cult.
Hamas is Jihadist and extremist. It would have been a fatal mistake for Israel to support them to undermine the secular movement for a free palestine. Trying to position Hamas between international support and the palestinian people sounds like a really cynical and bad idea.
There is no way the hard right in Israel would ever pursue such an agenda.right?
Lol human shields stupidest shit I’ve ever heard
What do you think the hostages they took were for? Aside from later rape after they were tired from all the initial raping and pillaging.
Palestinian militants take IDF soldiers captive so they can exchange them for their own that are being held captive in Israel.
Your hatred and racism for Palestinians is insane.
You’re just being overdramatic. My comment never mentions Palestine or Palestinians explicitly and to be clear I was referring to hamas, the terrorists, that hide behind Palestinian civilians.
Maybe a lot of people are sick and tired of the absolute bullshit argument of human shields.
Still way too one sided against Israel
How people fail to notice sarcasm is beyond me
No /s, no sarcasm.
You must be a joy at parties.
I don’t go to parties, I spend my time as a disembodied text balloon 🗨️
Just basic heuristics really. With just cold text, it’s impossible to be sure.
Damn this is going to still be going on in 2121?
Israel will almost certainly have wrapped up their genocide long before that.
Looks like it.
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“the facts don’t align with the narrative I’ve selected! Clearly this must be propaganda”
Would you mind parsing that out a little further? Surely you’re not saying that it’s fine that the IDF is killing almost 500x the number of civilians Hamas are because they have the iron dome, and pointing out this fact is propagandistic?
100% not agreeing with this person, but I think their point is that if Hamas attacks, their attacks are likely to be blocked by the iron dome, resulting in no Israeli casualties. But if Israel retaliates, Palestine will have casualties.
I think the thought process is to defend Israel by implying all the deaths they’ve caused is as a counterattack?
Again, not defending it, just interpreting what I think was being implied. Even if my interpretation is correct, so much is still missing from the thought process.
This amounts to “You tried to punch me a couple of times and landed one, so I beat the shit out of you with 500 punches - it’s racist propaganda to point out that I did that.”
There’s a reason I asked them to expand on what they said - I’m confident they’re trying to defend the indefensible, and I’ll just let them reveal that themselves.
A little more nuanced than that.
Where did Israel come from? Who lived there first? Why was Israel set there and who deemed it all legal?
Imperialism.
People native to the area are shoved aside, money is sent to force those people being shoved aside and nobody is supposed to care they are shoved aside.
I agree chart pushes a narrative but the narrative is not “Palestinians are crybabies about missile strikes”
Jews are natives to that area as well. It wasn’t just the people who today call themselves Palestines.
Okay. But also so are Palestinians and that was their land until the British changed it (Imperialism)
Now who lives in open air prisons because of the other? Because it ain’t Jewish people.
Yes, cause pre-iron dome, which is on this chart 2008-2011, the death toll was much completely even.
On this chart, where is the line showing babies and children beheading?
Before we just dig in and point fingers, maybe we can get on the same page? Nobody is saying murdering babies is ok, as others pointed out, that has not been substantiated. Assuming we’re all against murdering innocent people, the point of the chart/linked article, is to understand the circumstances that make a powder keg for violence.
Think of it this way: pointing out that having a table full of wood shavings and gasoline out in the sun is likely to cause a fire is NOT pro-fire or justifying fire; it’s pointing out the conditions that foster the growth of fire because you want less fire to exist in the world.
Considering that I haven’t seen any substantiation for those claims, it’s properly charted already at 0.
Phew. I’m so glad to hear Hamas draws the line at murdering, raping, kidnapping and using human shields. I was really worried they were the bad guys.
Did we look at the same graph? Can you truly say these attacks caused more suffering? Who murdered more innocent children (considering the demographics of Gaza and the indiscriminate nature of Israels bombings in the past)?
I don’t think anyone is innocent here, but if i had to blame someone, it’d be the oppressor, not the opressed.
You legit looked at this graph, ignored ALL of it, and still went “Hamas bad”.
Why are you here if you’re not going to even try to understand the situation?
Hamas IS bad. They repress secular movements for a free palestine. We shouldn’t forget tho, that is the role Israel intends for them.
The truth is rarely so convenient
I always think to myself “No one could possibly believe such blatant propaganda” and then i read comments like these. Why behead them? Why don’t you behead the adults? Do you carry a dedicated baby knife for that?
It’s not like they’d be innocent without beheading babies… But i guess dehumanizing them like this makes it easier to justify the atrocities that are sure to be commited as a reaction to this.
It kinda makes me wonder how much of the things i assume to be true are the product of propaganda aswell.
They intentionally slaughtered a massive amount of civilians in a blatant act of terrorism. The people that did this don’t believe Jews to be worthy of living. True or not anyone who can believe and do these things isn’t too far off from being capable of beheading babies.
They intentionally slaughtered a massive amount of civilians in a blatant act of terrorism.
Yes they did. So did the israely military in Gaza.
The people that did this don’t believe Jews to be worthy of living.
I wonder why. Not saying i agree but i understand their anger and frustration. What growing up in an open air prison does to a mf…
True or not anyone who can believe and do these things isn’t too far off from being capable of beheading babies.
What ever helps you justify the indiscriminate violence Israel will be unleashing on the palistinian population. Realisticly there is no way to distinguish between Hamas fighters and civilians. But i guess those are 2nd class civilians anyway, or are Hamas themselves, right?
You mean the made up babies that everyone who claimed they existed are now backpedaling on?
It’s not on the chart. Not only did it not happen prior to the current October 2023 war (as it clearly states in the title of the graph and the post), it didn’t happen at all.
What did happen is the overwhelming murder and maiming of innocent civilians who have no way to defend themselves, against one of the most powerful nations on the planet.
It’s not that hard to read fam.
The title of the chart clearly states prior to the Oct 2022 war. So …
*2023
You are correct, damn typo, thanks!
And here we see one of the rights favorite tactics. Focus on the most lurid horrifying story, usually involving a white woman or child, to demonize and marginalize a group of people while completely ignoring the statistics of whose actually being victimized. You saw it in the Jim crow south with stories of negros raping white women, you saw it in nazi Germany with stories of Jews sacrificing German babies, and now you see it in the defense of Israel.
The battle for hearts and minds.
Check your axes. You have 2x 25,000s. I genuinely want to know how on someone can create a chart with this kind of error these days. Surely you’re not adding axis labels with a graphics tool after the initial generation. Right?
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Edit: if any of the downvoters would take a moment to reply letting me know what they think I meant by this comment that would be much appreciated. Frankly, I’m a bit lost.
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I think that the downvotes come from a place of not understanding what this comment tries to imply, hence not adding anything to the conversation.
For example. Someone can read this and think “Context matters, so that’s why Hamas did what they did, and what they did is fine and I stand with them”
Another person could read “Context matters, it doesn’t matter what Isarael did before, Hamas still did something unforgivable and Israel is still right and I stand with them”
Ultimately, at least for me, it’s hard to see what you’re trying to say with this comment, especially when the situation is so nuanced. At least that’s how I saw it.
Edit: if any of the downvoters would take a moment to reply letting me know what they think I meant by this comment that would be much appreciated. Frankly, I’m a bit lost.
Probably since you stressed the importance of context and refused to give any context
I meant it in the exact way OP did. Which is that these recent deaths aren’t a whole lot in context.
15 years is a woefully short time frame to look at in a conflict that goes back hundreds if not thousands of years…
This conflict started in the late 40s. Less than 100 years.
I mean I’m not gonna waste my time trying to educate you on this but you’re wrong. Go read some books, watch some lectures, listen to some podcasts.
You’re a moron who fell for the natural enemies myth. Jews, Christians and Muslims all lived in Palestine peacefully before the Nakba.
Don’t call people morons when you’re completely ignorant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hebron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
Edit - Folks, how is it controversial that this conflict extends further into the past than 1948?
You are not allowed to say something against Palestine on Lemmy. Sometimes not even against Hamas.
Not sure if that’s propaganda bots, anti-semitism, or people generally having this biased view.
In Germany Palestinian activists were celebrating Hamas attack on Israelis. And anti-semitic attacks in the public and even schools increased.
Yes surely 1917-1948 was a time of peaceful bliss…
You’re wrong, you need to read some Facebook posts, educate yourself!
Still it would probably be good to have the graph go back 70 years to when it started.
it’s not in timeframe of millennia.
do you think the recent conflict can tracked back to biblical times when prophet Moses lived?
so many things happened in that region, that includes there was a peace in that region for a time to time.
the recent conflict can be tracked at WW I, when British Empire take over that region from Ottoman Empire and they drew the lines and promised two ethnic groups of the same region.
WW I was over a hundred years ago. My point stands that only considering 15 years is a very myopic view on the region.
Can THIS conflict he traced back to biblical times? (By the way, it may even be selling yourself short to stop at Moses… but that leads to the question of how back do you draw the line of relevance…) no of course not. Realistically, while I’m inclined to look back to the late 1800s and early 1900s, there’s no one alive today that was alive at that time. 1 or 2 generations later can you expect everyone to forget the events of the past? Maybe not.
It’s a really classic example (maybe THE classic example) of violence begetting violence. Unfortunately the violent tendencies and hatred are institutionalized. It’s clearly not an easy problem to solve, but I’m fairly certain that violent terrorist attacks against civilians is not in the running for a solution.
EDIT: just to add, going back a thousand years takes us to the time of the crusades, during and after which there were Arab attacks driving out non-arabs… and Arab attacks against other Arab factions (not blind to the fact that all Arabs are not a monolithic group).
Going back a little further you have a history of violence and discrimination against the Jews and Arabs (and pagans and other people) by the Roman’s. You can see how hard it is to find a stopping point in the history of violence in the region.
So yes while the CURRENT conflict probably only tracks back a hundred or so years, the history of conflict in general in the region goes back thousands of years (probably 4 thousand years but im not sure there are even stories, much less even somewhat reliable historical accounts that go back much further than that).
Yes, this is a region that has been fought over since the dawn of human history. It’s centered between the various cradles of human civilization - Sumeria, Egypt, and Greece, so it would have been a strategic location militarily and economically. Jaffa is a port that dates back to biblical times, and during the height of the Roman Empire, Judea would have been a vital trading post on the silk road. It’s where monotheism began, so it holds great cultural significance as well. With the discovery of oil it became an indispensable ally for the industrialized world in a region destabilized by colonialism and the fall of the Ottoman Empire. It truly is a prize to be won, and has been for thousands of years.
However, Israel is not a center of trade in the globalized economy under American hegemony, and perhaps as our dependence on oil wanes, its military/geopolitical significance will dissipate. The only remaining reason for conflict will be the Al Aqsa Mosque sitting atop the Jewish Temple Mount.
I was curious about looking at some recent data being visualized. specifically a percentage of population estimate for the varied areas. (injuries , deaths, missing) anyone know of some credible data sets for some of this info? if I wasn’t at the bar, I’d try to tease it out myself.
