They talk about a few causes, but this is the gist of it for anyone who doesn’t want to click:
Researchers cited the pandemic as the biggest factor in the widening gender gap; it took a heavier toll on men. Unintentional injuries and poisonings (mostly drug overdoses), accidents and suicide were other contributors.
That’s because in addition to the disinformation, many men also have to do the macho thing: https://youtu.be/1chYhsp3NRw
I forgot that suicide was super macho.
I warned my ex to be safe when the biology of it was just beginning to be understood back in March/April 2020, and his exact response was, “It’s not like I’m going to die.” He says, occupying every high risk category except “immunocompromised.”
So yeah, apparently.
So … did he make it?
I remember when I was growing up my parents were always saying “son you better kill yourself if you want to get married.” And on wrestling night, Randy Savage used to stand up on the turnbuckles and shout “AFTER THIS, MACHO MAN IS GONNA BLOW HIS BRAINS OUT.” He was a big role model for me.
“son you better kill yourself if you want to get married.”
I think I’m missing something, is this supposed to make sense? You can’t get married if you’re dead afaik
They’re being facetious by imagining if intentional suicide was part of male culture in the same way excessive risk taking is.
Fuck Joe Rogan. At some level I want to say “if you are really going to take advice from Joe Rogan and other idiots online, Darwin will just be checking off posthumous boxes,” but I’ve seen too many family members be trapped and warped by social media into believing garbage that I realize it’s the fault of the system. People have always profited off of needless human death, it’s way worse though when it’s a podcaster spewing garbage.
Americans also just generally live shorter lives than people in other developed countries:
Still is, men are still dying more from Covid and in excess deaths from related conditions that are elevated like heart attacks and strokes.
The declining cd4 and cd8 cell counts however will strike men and women equally over time.
There are also studies that show men are less likely to got to a doctor or they go to late. In part that is because most male bodies tend to take longer before heavy symptoms are coming up but then they progress faster.
It has something to do with differences in immune system of men and women. When for example a man and a woman are infected with the same amount of viruses the women’s immune system will react faster so she gets symptoms earlier and goes to the doctor earlier as well. The man won’t have any symptoms but then the infection will suddenly progress fast when a critical amount of viruses is reached.
It’s of course more complex and there are tons of studies about it, but I think that’s something to keep in mind “in practice”.
This comes on top of the gender stereotypes which make some men shun the doctor.
Holy shit. That makes it even more problematic that many men tend to avoid going to the doctor. They essentially have less time once they do show symptoms. :(
You have any sources for that? Never heard of this before; sounds interesting.
There are different studies depending on the pathogen or diesease. But this one describes some of the more general effects I mean:
Sex differences in immune responses
Paywalled, but it provides a good list of additional sources via it’s references and list of articles that cite it: The influence of sex and gender on the immune response
Men trend more conservative than women overall (6 in 10 committed conservatives are men - pew) so more of them probably fell for the disinformation and denialism during the pandemic. Yes, we know that Republicans died more from COVID, to the tune of 15% more excess deaths.
i wonder if this is correlated with the loneliness increase / the loneliness gap. if you’re a guy, lonely, prone to depression, in a crumbling post-capitalist society that’s getting more malignant by the day…how much will to live can you have
Nah, the older men I know either won’t go to a doctor because they didn’t need them when they were younger, are scared of them, can man up through whatever pain they have, whatever. These are folks with Medicare, so at least access to doctors. These are all married men with kids. They don’t go until they’re literally forced to and by then, it’s already too late and they just die.
I won’t go to a doctor because my experience with doctors is they tell me I’m imagining it, refuse to order any tests, then send me a bill for hundreds of dollars for the privilege of hearing them gaslight me about my symptoms.
I won’t open up emotionally to people for similar reasons: experience of it going wrong.
Sounds all too familiar. I blame the pain pendulum swinging too far the other way. Doctors do a he’ll of a lot more then manage pain… but to a patient pain is usually the number one reason they are in front of the doctor. When the doctor will not even write the smallest script to alleviate their pain, or even worse accuses them of being a drug seeker either directly or with their indirect language (that we can all read through) men tend to give up. If you can’t even help me with the easiest part, or are going to become adversarial about it then what’s the point of going to the doctor? Obviously that question is rhetorical…
They really need to loosen their grip on low level pain meds and really start diverting people into pain management programs when necessary. This opioid backlash has only hurt the general public. Pain doesn’t just disappear if you don’t treat it, this just leads more people into buying diverted scripts, becoming their own doctor and then eventually using fentanyl pills or just “heroin”.
I don’t go to the doctor because even with insurance it’s too expensive. The whole billing system is complicated as fuck and makes it impossible to predict how much an appointment will cost. Then on top of that if you need more tests or specialists that’s a huge pain in the ass. My mom got to the point that managing my grandparents healthcare shit was basically a full time job. Nooo thanks I’ll just off myself if I get to that point.
That’s a whole nother layer, and is also why I have a decade gap in my medical history. Then the doctors and nurse practitioners have the gall to gasp that I haven’t seen a doctor regularly in 10 years…
One protip is if you don’t own anything, you can just let those bills go to the void of collections. Collections will run a hard game at first, just trying to recoup the 2% it paid for the debt. But after awhile they give up… can’t draw blood from a stone.
I’d rather die than ever see the medical bill.
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quick question, how is this any different for women?
It’s less acceptable for men to open up, it’s one of the toxic masculinity traits that harms men the most.
I think as men get older, we also tend to have less close friends than women. Or at least it sure seems to be that way for many. Saw it with my dad before we lost him last year. I see it with my brother and myself. It has brought me and my brother somewhat closer in that we text and talk more than we used to despite not living close and being pretty different personalizes.
I have a few close friends, but not male ones. I had to stop working at a young age and I feel that is when I stopped having a connection to any sort of male bonding.
But I agree, that it still seems unacceptable to open up, share feelings, and be vulnerable as a man. Probably why I have mostly had women as close friends most of my adult life.
I have to wonder about the generalized differences between men and women not helping here either.
Men can bond over problem solving or following a sport /passion. Work often helps create an environment for plenty of problem solving and sharing of sports.
Women typically share about most things and want to just be heard with their gf’s and that is a wider bandwidth to contribute to a relationship with. A listening partner to vet their feelings with often.
Men typically are either figuring out their hierarchy subconsciously and couldn’t afford to share their losses as easily. Plus most men don’t really want to hear it. Older men often don’t know how to deal with it. There’s a reason a lot of our happy places are places where we don’t seem to think like fishing, watching sports, etc
I discovered after my father passed unexpectedly from a heart attack the majority of his male friends were those with health issues that he was helping out with from rides to doctors, to money for things like medicine. He didn’t follow sports and outside of gambling didn’t really have hobbies.
I didn’t really put that together until years later when I looked back with this problem solving mindset. All those men that came up to me at his funeral were men he helped in one way or another. Some of them were going to lose some of the freedom he provided with his ability to still drive and shuttle them around. I’m not sure what friends he had outside of this dynamic during his short lived retirement. When I called his old co-workers that I knew of when I was younger to inform them of his passing often they had not seen or heard from him since they last worked together.
It’s something my lonewolf personality is going to need to address as I get older too.
So when my woman gets less attracted to me as a result of me opening up, that’s toxic masculinity at work?
Yes, good example
More an indicator of a poor decision on a life partner.
@intensely_human @SkyeStarfall Yes? Or rather, the *assumption* that she would is toxic masculinity. If she actually does that, she’s bought into the same toxic bullshit.
It’s toxic no matter whom it’s coming from. You *deserve* someone whom you can open up to.
Men and women seem to make friends differently. Men have more of a tendency to make friends through work. The change in work culture can cause these to collapse more easily. It’s particularly harsh at retirement. They not only lose their day-to-day reason to go on, but the friendship net that should help them.
By comparison, women tend to make friends independently of work. This makes their friendships more tolerant to changing jobs, or leaving work. Women also seem to be better at maintaining friendships at a distance.
Lastly, there is the (slightly controversial) glass floor. It’s the inverse of the glass ceiling. Both men and women have a bias to help women in distress over men. This makes it a lot more likely that someone will step in to help, before the downward spiral gets too deep. This is partially why men make up a large proportion of the homeless.
I’m pretty surprised by the friend-making info you shared. Do you have a source? I’d like to read more.
In terms of making friend stats I don’t know of any study’s but I do find it extremely believable from my life. My dad is probably the only man I know of to have a friend group and even then it’s just him and one other guy. Meanwhile I walk around and see women walking around exclusively in groups. I suppose it really doesn’t help that in the place I’m from socializing with coworkers is considered lazy and generally shushed.
It isn’t. When you look at studies they reveal that loneliness is very prevalent in multiple groups of people and in general. In some studies older women are the most lonely group.
Gender and Age Differences in Loneliness: Evidence for People without and with Disabilities
There is much activity by anti-feminists in particular to push the narrative that men are the most lonely group and that of course the reason are women. This is heavily pushed by media because people seemingly like that idea more than that gender stereotypes targeting men are potentially more at fault.
Of course, because if men ever have it bad, it’s their own fault and of course women actually have it worse. And now you know why mortality for men is so high.
I mean, gender stereotypes still tend to be sourced by a person. It makes sense the most stretched stereotypes would come from people that don’t actually fall into the demographic themselves. You wouldn’t hear Mexicans claim “Oy mijo, we are all so lazy!”
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The loneliest group is older women, btw. Not that anyone cares, though…
Women are better at expressing that are lonely. From what I understand it’s unclear who is more lonely because men don’t admit to being lonely. It’s probably more important to not argue about and just be aware that old people are often very lonely.
I agree. But I think to increase life expectancy in men it’s important to look into the diverse causes instead of letting the discussion being guided by anti-feminists who really do not seem to put men’s health and happiness first but rather their ideology.
Harping on one potentially non-deciding factor and leaving those factors that are known to be important behind because they don’t fit their ideology is not helping men.
Yep and going around arguing that women are more lonely doesn’t add much to the discussion IMO. It’s not a competition and the output of dying younger is the primary fact we know about gender health differences.
It is a complicated discussion with a lot more inputs than just loneliness though. The anti feminist angle is kind of strange, never thought much of it.
Doubt
To live? Not much. To riot? Plenty.
This is the energy I wish everyone carried.
I want to kill myself because I hate myself, not because of capitalism. This kind of doomer shit doesn’t fucking help anyone. The absolute hopeless outlook of people on social media is pathological at this point.
You’re all loved. You’re valid. We’re not gonna let anyone murder you en masse. Things will get better. It might be slower than we’d like at times, but nobody has been able to stop progress yet.
Here’s what you get for listening to joe rogan for medical advice lol
Edit: for those calling out missandry, the article and I are talking about american men. You’re not the center pf the universe…
It’s telling that your first reaction is to joke about the issue. Imagine someone talking about wage gaps and people making a joke about women.
I mean I always enjoy humor about dark subjects personally, doesn’t matter the topic. Maybe that’s just the autism working tho
if it was about wage gaps and the joke was about women people would call it mysogyny not “dark humor” so it’s not unreasonable to take his comment as misandrist.
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Bigotry is not eliminated by bigotry in the other direction.
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Enabling their hypocracy? It isn’t exactly unfair to call out this kind of joking when a cornerstone of men’s issues is that they often aren’t taken seriously when things like mental health issues arise. They’re often dismissed with jokes or belittled.
In other words, the person who came in joking failed to read the room and got called out for it. Would you defend someone saying, even facetiously 'bet she’s just saying that for attention ’ in a rape support thread?
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Sounds like you’re working through some personal issues there, champ. Wanna air them out?
Cry harder, you whiny, enabling, sexist piece of shit.
you’re sad other dick wielders
You really expect people to take your opinions to heart and maybe change their minds and agree with you, while speaking to them like this?
If you’re here to just make yourself feel better, especially if you’ve been hurt, then by all means, continue. We don’t mind the verbage pollution. /s
However, if you’re here to express ideas and have conversation that may lead to understanding, you’ll need to work on your temper/tone.
And if you just want to flame me for pointing this out, then continue on, Internet Warrior. Or don’t, you’re not making things any better here if you do.
Oh horseshit, you said you’re cool with making bigoted jokes now that the shoe is on the other foot. Get fucked with the whole righteous indignation spiel.
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It’s interesting that criticism enrages you so much. Maybe take some time to touch grass and reflect.
you have poor reading skills
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Bigotry is the unreasonable and prejudicial intolerance of the members of a particular group.
I doubt you have encountered any actual bigots, as I can’t imagine any group that would willingly include you in their ranks.
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Oh great, and soon we will have the right to make bigoted jokes about women again when “eye for an eye” comes to fruition?
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That’s what they get for sacrificing their educations and careers to have children.
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Does this mean that I can also make jokes about the massive gaps in other situations against women?
There are way more male than female politicians: Maybe if you stop bickering about emotional bullshit you’d be liked and voted for.
There are way more men than women in the tech sector: I mean hey women know how to make a good dish and men know how to code a good porn site.
There are more men holding executive positions in public companies: Listen, that’s on you if your work goes to shit for a week every month.
I could go on but you get the idea. Is that OK?
Sounds like you took that personally…
Huh… is Joe Roganisn an identity now?
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I just saw someone being unfair towards a group of people and no one calling them out. If someone were to also make a joke at any minority group/protected class without anyone calling them out I’d do the same thing.
It’s just kinda hard to find people being misogynistic, racist, homophobic or whatever and no one calling them out at least here on lemmy. Which is good.
Sounds like you were just looking for an opportunity to spew your own misogyny. It came rather easily if not even a bit eagerly to you for an argument against it.
and despite how youre trying to sell it, it’s not ‘calling out’ someone when you precisely example it like you’re talking to a child.
And it is derailing, which is hypocritical.
And it’s aggressive.
So It misses the point your tying to argue it makes on so many levels.
It came rather easily if not even a bit eagerly to you for an argument against it.
I don’t even know what that means.
I was being aggressive by illustrating different situations to show that it’s unacceptable to anyone to make sexist jokes. But when it’s a sexist joke against men you don’t seem to care.
But what the hell am I derailing? The article said that suicides and overdoses are on the rise which cause early deaths disproportionately for men. Then the commenter said some dumb shit about health choices from Joe Rogan. There is no conversation here, OP just saw a chance to shit on meatheads but chose the wrong time and place.
And most importantly:
and despite how youre trying to sell it
*You’re
So It misses the point your tying to argue it makes on so many levels.
*You’re
And most importantly:
and despight how ur trying to cell it
So It missuz the point ur tying to RGew it makes on so many levels.
Better?
Yeah buddy it’s the women who are too emotional. This is definitely a completely proportionate and rational reaction
It’s punching down. You can make jokes like that and nobody is going to punish you for it but they will think you’re a jackass.
That’s a convenient excuse to be an asshole to half the population while running interference for the other.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander
Makes sense I guess but it still feels unfair. Like people can make jokes about men who are suicidal and overdosing but you can’t make jokes about women’s stereotypes?
To me it should be one or the other
1- You can make whatever jokes about any protected class or minority
2- You can’t ever make jokes at the expense of a protected class regardless of how privileged they are
No one is stopping you from doing either one. OHHHH you just don’t want the consequences. It’s Not about personal responsibility or choice. I see now.
I’m saying this about myself bro what the fuck are you talking about? I’m saying other people should follow one or the other.
No lie you sound like ChatGPT 0.1 trained on tumblr lmao.
I mean I would definitely consider it in poor taste if a woman started making tone deaf jokes about male suicide rates. You get a lot more leeway when making fun of a group you are a part of. You combine that with the general assumption that everyone on the internet is male until proven otherwise, and yeah in this kind of forum it’s much more acceptable to make jokes at the expense of men than women.
There’s also a bit of a disparity in the examples you gave. The idea that men die earlier because they take medical advice from Joe Rogan is obviously not made in sincerity. The overwhelming majority of men have never listened to Joe Rogan and besides a few high profile examples I don’t think he actually gives that much medical advice. Though it would be harmful if people genuinely believed this was true, it doesn’t seem likely that anyone would.
On the other hand, Women being worse workers due to emotions or their periods or whatever is something a lot of people genuinely believe. In some circles those statements wouldn’t be considered jokes but rather serious opinions. Repeating those things, even if you don’t personally believe then, reinforces the ideas and is clearly harmful to women.
A similarly offensive “joke” at men’s expense would be something like “men die earlier because they’re too stupid to see a doctor”. This would be a bad joke, because it’s taking something which is basically true, men don’t see doctors as frequently, and tying it to a real and harmful stereotype, men are dumber than women.
You’re right, the OP wasn’t serious. But same as with misogynistic jokes, a lot of people could believe the Joe Rogan thing. I mean he does like carnivore diets, he puts vaccine skeptic people on his show, he took Ivermectin, and there is likely some other dumb shit he spews that would be harmful. I could easily see someone believing that he was a part of if not a big cause of male deaths in during the pandemic if you’ve not read the article.
The examples I gave were intentionally bad to show the difference in reaction in this community. But TBH, I see now that the reaction is not as one sided as I saw in the first place. Still fucked up though.
If that’s what you think a joke is maybe give up on trying for a comedy career.
No, it’s not okay. My parents didn’t have me to be your f*cking ‘Chef.’ Learn to cook a decent meal for yourself a**hole.
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You cant say with certainty that that is the cause because there are many other numerous factors that can cause this
joe rogan is an idiot though
I’m being facetious, it’s clearly a complexe issue
Obvious joke is obvious lol
spits out elk jerky
Hey now don’t waste the elk jerky
Ironic that the thread is about men dying on average younger than women, and the majority of the responses are people completely ignoring that fact and instead just taking an opportunity to negatively stereotype men so they can shit on them collectively.
Are we in the same thread? Feel like I’m missing that going on
Pshew - look at that pendulum swing…
Men typically die younger than women across the world. Men tend to be higher risk takers and tend to be less social due to toxic masculinity. The strength of your social network is a huge factor in anyone’s lifespan/quality of life. Then in the west you have the “manosphere” (Joe Rorgan, Andrew Tate etc.) as a very popular men’s place for socializing, which is isolating in it’s own right and drives things that are, once again, already predominant traits in men like going to see doctors less and listening to their advice less.
These are the things I’m seeing brought up and they’re all real known phenomenon. Where’s the lie?
"Men die earlier because of toxic masculinity "
That is victim blaming, plain and simple.
Apply your logic to rape and women wearing revealing clothing and then tell me that your statement isn’t disgraceful and sickening.
Learn how to read and understand logic dude. Oh and cope harder.
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That’s fine. My job as a man is to die first. Is that toxic masculinity? Yes. Is it stupid? Also yes. But I’d rather die on my lawnmower than acknowledge feelings. I will go out 6 years early like a man.
I will work 12hr days and sacrifice my health for my family. Toxic maybe, but my duty as a man.
I’ll eat that 12oz sirloin and wash it down with beer and whiskey every night. Just so someone doesn’t call me gay. Doesn’t matter how many dudes I fuck in the ass!
Get that umbrella away from me faaaag.
Wow
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You know I really question how many children are gonna grow up in the world basically fatherless, or with an absent father, because there’s this idea that the man has to be the one sacking everything they have in order to “put food on the table”. Gone for most of the day, devoid of energy when they come home, meat on the chopping block. I wonder how many kids would pick a better house, brand name foods, more toys, over more time spent with their dad.
This was my dad growing up. (Although my mom worked a lot at her job, too.) He’s since expressed his regret over it, and the sad thing is that at the time we were all perfectly happy for him to work all the time because he was just such a difficult person. But now that he’s retired and had a chance to breathe and heal, he is such a different person and I love spending time with him. We are both cantankerous weirdos with ADHD, and our weekends together are often spent doing projects, losing track of half our tools, and then comparing stories about the dumbest things our impaired attention span has caused us to do.
Basically, he just needed a chance to be HUMAN.
That was a beautiful ending in its own way :)
The fact that so many men are dying young should be it’s own issue, full stop. There is no reason to try to start a competition over it, or to try to force the topic to change to something else. This IS important, and it should be treated as such. Gain some empathy.
Did women get the rights to vote and wear pants just because they secretly wanted to? No. They fought against the standards of the time, and they had support from other groups. They didn’t have that support just because of their genetics, but also because other people had some goddamned empathy. We need to move past the “fuck you, I got mine” as a society if we EVER want things to be good overall. Nothing really excludes you from doing that, at least not if you actually care about others. I don’t even really care if someone has a damned disco ball down there, it’s horrible that people feel the NEED to live in a way that cuts their life short.
If you hear that a large group of people is dying young, the correct response is to figure out why, and solve it. The correct response is not to turn it into a competition or to blame the people who died so young. The correct response is to try to find a solution, and to possibly literally save lives. You are a bad person if you are happily ok with this going on. If you hate half of the population so badly that you don’t care about their death, you have no business telling that population how to live or how to be happy.
It’s tragic really. Imo, this is yet another situation where tradition and societal pressures kill people. Don’t be miserable to try to make dead people happy. Dead people who cared so little, that they didn’t put anything in place to help you in the future. Dead people who only cared about what they personally experienced during their time on earth. Dead people who had a very large hand in causing most of the pain that these people are feeling today.
Dudes reading this, I know it might be difficult depending on where you are, but please check up on your friends. Don’t tease them when they open up about serious things, and please listen to them talking about things they love. Change starts with you, and it starts with me. We can make a new future, and we don’t have to keep trying to please the people who will never see it.
Try to not be too hard on yourself, you’re probably doing the best that you can. Your best might “look like” 20% one day, and 80% the next, but it will still be YOUR 100%. You are only human, and no one is perfect. Please keep up the hobbies that you love, and always look towards better and brighter things. Some days that might be looking forwards to Friday, and other days that might be discovering a new passion. Love unconditionally, and build yourself and others up relentlessly. The odds that you specifically exist are so miniscule that it could almost be considered a miracle.
Even if it might not feel like it today, you are important. You have value. No one else out there has your exact combination of attributes, and only you can fill that role. Even if you’re in your 50’s, you can still pursue your passions and dreams. Many of the people who poop on your ambitions are people who regret not fulfilling their own. Don’t listen to angry people for live advice, as their methods are the best way to stay angry.
Please keep doing your best, and best wishes to y’all. It’s tough out there and I can’t imagine how tough it would feel to go at it alone. Strive for a better tomorrow, and never give up. Giving up is the only way to guarantee that this continues.
The fact that so many men are dying young should be it’s own issue, full stop. There is no reason to try to start a competition over it, or to try to force the topic to change to something else. This IS important, and it should be treated as such.
Did women get the rights to vote and wear pants just because they secretly wanted to? No.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Tbh I only mentioned it because I saw other comments trying to turn the post into yet another game “who has it worse” or “who can we blame so we don’t have to put any effort into fixing it”.
I also saw some toxic comments stating that men should just pull themselves out of it. I brought up the rights situation because it was another scenario that required more than just one group of people to make any proper change. We’ve done it before, why not again?
Expecting a group that is already struggling with life to suddenly magic themselves better is unrealistic at best. So, I tried to remind people that working together would be better.
You’re fine, it was overly verbose for my taste/consumption, but informative. When I see that much verbosity I’m suspect that it’s actually just a ChatGPT-type generated text/comment.
To the point, I was just friendly teasing, by emphasizing via italics, the fact that you were talking about something that shouldn’t be done, and then actually doing the thing you said you shouldn’t be doing, all in the same comment.
It’s all good! I wanted to make sure that I clarified just in case
Fair enough. Sincerely, no insult was meant (unless you really were using ChatGPT, then in that case “fuck you!” >:p ).
What’s your point?
What’s yours?
I am trying to understand what you meant to say, since it was not clear.
Check the parts I italicized, they’re emphasized to make my point.
or to try to force the topic to change to something else.
Seems like this is the point. No double standards.
or to try to force the topic to change to something else.
Seems like this is the point. No double standards.
Or more like saying we shouldn’t do this and then doing what you’re saying you shouldn’t be doing.
I would have thought the emphasis by italicizing would have been enough to make my point. Apparently it wasn’t.
Competition? What do women have to do with this? Who is happily ok with this going on? Who are you talking to?
There are a decent number of people just in these comments that are willing to just dismiss this as ‘toxic masculinity’ and move on. They think toxic masculinity is something entirely created and maintained by men. It is not. Many men have stories of women holding them to toxic masculine standards.
is this supposed to be an announcement to them?
It is an explanation of the misconception many people are under and why it is a misconception.
It is commentary that makes no assumptions of the person reading it.
It is an assumption of your first sentence is true. It’s even going into prediction.
What part is either assumption or prediction? Just read the comments.
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He didn’t write anything against that.
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Stfu
Has anybody considered that maybe we don’t want to live longer?
My entire life, I feel like my only value as a person has been to provide financial benefit to others. There is no passion. There is only obligation.
I’ve met those obligations. Those obligations required a whole lot of struggle and doing whatever was necessary with no regard to my physical or mental well-being. If at any time I tried to take pause and do something for myself, I was considered loathsome and…favorite zeitgeist buzzword, toxic. Only when I returned to giving all of myself to others was there any tolerance of my existence.
Now in my fifties, I’m tired. I don’t mean I’m I need a nap tired. I mean it at an existential level.
I refuse to spend my remaining years in doctors offices as they systemically extract every remaining dollar I’ve got while telling me I’m a terrible person for not living a perfectly physical life. I’ll choose the early exit and a nice clean estate to leave to my daughter.
When my time comes, I will go quietly into that cold dark void, and I will do so enthusiastically. I see no value in prolonging the inevitable merely for the benefit of others. Let me have this one small thing
I’m so sorry to read this. It must be ok to do stuff for yourself, anybody that tells you no is the one being toxic. As they say in fight club, you are not defined by your job. Especially in this time of AI and extreme automation, we must normalise that not having a job, or not living for your job, doesn’t mean you are worthless. This is valid for women as well, btw.
It sounds like you have personal issues that go beyond aging
It’s not personal issues, it’s patriarchal issues. Just about every guy I know past a certain age, myself included, feel the burn from this. You are expected to just give give give and anytime you have needs, including some damn rest, you are looked down on for it and marginalized. You don’t see how much of a dog shit deal this is until you burn out.
If you don’t have a reason to keep on living, you have to make one. Set your direction. You don’t have to live just to provide for others.
If you don’t have a reason to keep on living, you have to make one. Set your direction. You don’t have to live just to provide for others.
It’s like you didn’t read what he said. You can do exactly that, set your own reason and start expressing yourself as you feel. The problem is that you are looked down on for it and marginalized. One of my best friends is gay, and he works in sales. He has to conceal much of himself to get by, and even in situations where he’s comfortable discussing his orientation, even amongst his own circles the issue of talking about your feelings is still difficult for people to accept.
If it’s an issue for gay people, imagine how fucked it is for straight people. Your comment comes off as if you clicked reply on the wrong thing.
I get that it isn’t simple or easy. There are parts of myself that I hide in public too, things that shouldn’t matter but for some reason do.
But if people are demanding that you give and give and give until there is nothing left, you owe it to yourself to either tell them to get fucked or find a way to get them out of your life. Easier said than done, I know, but it is the only way you will be free of that bullshit.
you are looked down on for it and marginalized
You just said and exact quote
you owe it to yourself to either tell them to get fucked or find a way to get them out of your life.
When that list includes your own mother, father, siblings, supervisor at work, and SO, I think your advice is tantamount to amputating a limb because of the discomfort it experiences in life, as opposed to recognizing the issue. I’m taking what you’re saying as aloof to the very subject matter here, and hence the subject we’re discussing here in the first place. The idea of telling your loved ones to get fucked and get them out of your life is in line with the issue of suicide, depression, and anxiety.
The depression from where you just became lonelier, and the suicide as many people see it as an “out”. You may as well just say, go kill yourself if you don’t like this world…and then we’re back to square one again.
Either way, have a nice downvote for your terrible attitude. I hope you have something better to say than the old “toughen up” advice that constitutes what makes this fucked.
If I sound aloof then I am sorry. But I have had to make similar choices. Saying goodbye to shit people can be truly difficult, but it’s either that or endure their shit if they won’t listen to you.
I am not saying to wallow in loneliness. You will need to find non-shit people to make a friend network, even just a small one.
It is a lot of effort and even the prospect is scary as fuck…but living a life enduring an untenable burden will never be better.
Sometimes life gives us impossible choices. Like upend everything or live in misery.
Bud, we hide this shit because the punishment for not doing so is worse than whatever we gain from not hiding it, we wouldnt have started hiding it if it weren’t
I have autism. I know far more about that than you’d think.
May I suggest revenge? Great reason. Also nazi hunting is pretty sweet. Take a few of the bastards with you.
Seems like you are in a tight spot. It must be immensely hard for you to feel the burden of “having to give” while it seems that nobody really cares about your well-being and gives back. I’m really sorry for you. It’s obvious that you’re far from happy about that. That’s only natural. I bet most people would feel the same if they were in your spot. And yet, it really sucks that no one around you seems to see.
I can understand that you got exhausted by all of this and don’t want to continue living like that any longer than you need to.I hope I don’t cross any line, whith the following. My apologies if that happens. Please feel free to ignore this completely if you’d rather not talk more about this.
Would you like to change your situation if it were possible somehow?
You said that you were misunderstood as “loathsome” and “toxic” when you tried to care for yourself. If it’s okay for you to tell us more about your situation: How did that happen?
Oh good. Another article about men struggling with X. This certainly means that help is coming, right? Right guys?
The help: “Remember guys, it’s okay to not be plagued by X”
It’s ok to be weak without support structures, you’ll be fine. It’s ok to not have friends, making friends is hard, 15% of the male population having no close friends is something you can work past, you’ll be fine. It’s ok to have mental health problems, despite there not being any help or support for them, it’s ok to let them take over your life from time to time, lonely men’s bills pay themselves, right?
But you’re men, you’re meant to be strong, and stoic, and nothing is meant to phase you emotionally. You’re allowed to cry, just don’t be pathetic looking when you do it. Cry like a fucking man.
It’s not phrased as how this is actually a women’s issue, so no.
Another article you don’t want to mention to someone else on account of being shamed for acknowledging men have problems at all 😃
Yes, but what about those women who have to lose their husbands and sons? They are the real victims.
You’re not wrong that they matter too, but both things can be bad
I don’t know how many people have noticed, but I was being sarcastic.
The fact that this has to be explained tho
Oh crap my bad XD
Lol it was a reference to how Hilary Clinton once said wives and daughters were the real victims of war.
Poe’s law my friend.
I don’t know how many people have noticed, but I was being sarcastic.
Best to use /s when you are.
Even italicising a point doesn’t seem to make it through the consumption to understanding; need to be more explicit here it seems.
Hillary Clinton, 1998?
Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.
…and not the dead guys?
I wish the men in my life would visit a doctor, get an annual check up, and take more preventative measures protecting their health.
Sounds expensive
Only in the US.
oh.
Other countries pay for it in high taxes. You pay for it somehow.
Edit:
Every tiny bit of interaction with the medical system in the US costs a multitude of what the same interaction costs in other countries.
There’s a reason why “international medical insurance” for say European travelers excludes the US by default. And if it includes US, it costs 4-10 times as much.
We have the tax money already in the US, we just dump most of it into the MI complex.
Probably
We pay plenty in taxes to cover healthcare already. It’s just wasted on a bloated military budget. That and lobbyists prevent any changes that would negatively impact the healthcare industry’s bottom line.
You pay more for it in the US anyway, and don’t necessarily have anything to show for it.
It’s just lose/lose for the US people.
US is 13th in the world for the highest marginal individual income tax rate. Throw in the cost of education, medical bills, insurance, and property taxes, just to name a few, we as Americans are getting screwed.
You’re right, I pay 5-10x as much out of my income 😀
Maybe you should talk to them first instead of wishing for them to pay for help not involving you.
It’s a lot cheaper for women to act like adults and stop treating them like utter dog shit.
You wanna throw in blaming immigrants too? It’s right there, easy pickings. C’mon, you know you want to.
I’m blessed to have good health/dental insurance and I guarantee you I make sure I get my money’s worth from it. I get my annual physicals, my required pokings and proddings, etc.
You’re victim blaming
I’m a bit concerned about using the “gender gap” term. As in, I wonder if it’s going to get adopted by misogynists to pit women’s suffering (gender pay gap) against men’s suffering (gender lifespan gap).
It is certainly telling that your first reaction isn’t about the real subject of the study.
Maybe you’re right, I’m sorry. It was just a first thought, and I’m trying to put thoughts out there on Lemmy less sensors to get convos going. Maybe this was an inappropriate one though and I can certainly choose better choices moving forward!
No worries. If you spend your life worrying what dickheads will think, you won’t make any societal progress.
Lol this guy is shamelessly accepting your apology and dismissing any potential issues on behalf of someone else 😂
The person has already apologized for an unintentional slight. What exactly is there left to do except accept it and move on?
What are you expecting to accomplish by pushing on the issue?
You don’t accept an apology on behalf of someone else implying it was unnecessary. It’s dishonest at best.
It was an understandable faux pas in a public conversation. Not something personally offensive to a particular individual. Fucking chill.
Even comparing the two issues that you brought up is ridiculous to me. Issue 1, women make slightly less in some situations for some jobs. Issue 2, men die earlier than women. These two issues are not even in the same realm of seriousness and urgency to solve.
I’d stop worrying about misogyny and start with some reflection on your own misandrist values.
Fucking hell, this pisses me off.
Lol, right? It would be funny if it weren’t so depressingly common a response.
“Something bad is happening to men”
“I think we should focus on how that affects women.”
Exactly. It’s like if your good friend came to you and told you they have cancer then you respond by saying, “oh that’s nice, I sat wrong and my leg fell asleep, shouldn’t you be caring about my leg???”
There is one constant with assholes: Any term or phrase can be used against someone else. It really doesn’t matter what. When someone has an agenda to degrade another group of people, anything can be used as a weapon. The specifics have no meaning.
As far as your concern about this being used against someone else, sure. The most likely scenario is that this is picked up by some kind of partisan taking head and rebroadcast on a grander scale.
Turn of phrase.
Idk… “term or phrase” works at least as well as well imo.
Eggcorn!
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They’ll do that either way.
That’s sad. Sigh.
if feminism has taught us nothing else (and it hasn’t) the only way to bridge this gap is to bring women down to our level not raise men up.
No, the way this works is the problem will go unsolved and probably even unaddressed until someone explains how men dying early is a problem for women. Then it’ll get attention. It’s not a real problem until it hurts women–the real victims.
So… you expect women to solve a problem made by men for men? How novel.
Society does not perceive “men are suffering” as a problem, is my point.
I think we very much do understand it’s a problem and there is not a whole lot women can do about it that we aren’t already doing. The majority of feminists would love for men to see a fucking therapist. They keep fighting it tooth and nail, though.
They’ll either not open up at all for fear of being judged, or they’ll ONLY lean on the women in their life. The one or two women in their life, because in my anecdotal experience they don’t seem to stick around women they can’t sleep with.
You guys want and desperately need actual emotional support, but you seemingly refuse to support each other. When we tell you to so much as just give each other the compliments you’re looking for, it’s met with whining because the respondents want women to do it. Even though mainly the compliments we get are…also from women, and going along with this request puts us in harm’s way.
A lot of men are so beat to shit from such an early age that they can’t even put a name to a lot of emotions besides anger. Which causes them to be both unable to manage what they can barely explain, and to feel significantly uncomfortable (outmatched) in marriage counseling, watching their wife run circles around them.
But biting the bullet and improving on emotional literacy via counseling and/or self-study and deep reflection never seems to strike the fancy. Their date has to teach them. And they WILL be fighting every step of the way.
I would love to date someone who doesn’t define their entire existence through their job. That’s nearly the entire reason two out of my four relationships fell to pieces.
-I- didn’t give a shit. I met one of them when we were both homeless and said yes anyway. But if I made more money or they got laid off at any point, both of them would have a months-long binge drinking breakdown regardless of what I said.
You know you could just stop, right? That’s what’s incredibly frustrating about this for me. A lot of problems that are specific to men seem to be an issue of self-image, and are thus self-imposed, and you could just. Stop.
I can’t make anyone not pick me up by the throat, but any day you could just wake up and decide your paycheck doesn’t actually fucking matter and never date someone who thinks it does.
You could be excruciatingly nice to people for no reason instead of demanding women do it, work out what’s going on with you and tell people about it, and give them both barrels if they think a human being needing help is gay.
As much as I feel for men as a group, it’s the empathetic part that makes me want to hold them upside down and shake them till the sense falls out. Take. Care of each other. Fix the thing.
It’s kinda sad that when men have problems, they’re just expected to solve it themselves.
Words like “self-imposed” are just thrown around to handwave their issues away. But no one asks why the men think this way. Are women completely blameless?
How would women react if men were to say the lack of female representation in STEM is “self-imposed” and that women should just stop not applying for those jobs because of fear. It’s unrealistic right?
How would women react if men were to say the lack of female representation in STEM is “self-imposed”
To be fair, people are saying this all the time. Look up a Lemmy post about struggles of women. Ok, that was a rhetoric task because you won’t find any with a significant amount of upvotes. But if you do on another platform, there will be plenty of people arguing that women should care for this themselves. Or discussing how bad it is for men, instead.
No, it ain’t sad at all. It’s infuriating. Men aren’t just having these problems. They are perpetuating them after having created them.
It’s the misogyny, sure. But also the xenophobia, homophobia, racism, religious extremism, warmongering, gun humping, and whatever else makes these dudes vote for the most conservative and/or biggest asshole they can find.
The same crap makes other people, including the women in their lives, not want to be around them. And of course that government they voted in ain’t going to offer any assistance as whatever calamities they’ve forced themselves to face alone, inevitably hit.
Glad to see both sides argued here, both legitimate points. Sorry for my pointless comment.
The majority of feminists would love for men to see a fucking therapist.
The majority of feminists would love for men to suffer and die and will say so in as many words, has been my experience.
But moving beyond that, therapy is a lazy, bullshit answer to the problem, for a number of reasons, a few of them being insurance.
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The majority of men are not mentally ill, aka they don’t suffer from a diagnosable disorder. Insurance won’t pay for “Apparently I need non-specific therapy.”
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…If he has insurance that would cover mental health services, which many men don’t.
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Have you ever been to a therapist? I have. They just ask pointless question after pointless question. “How did that make you feel?” “Bad.” “Why did it make you feel bad?” “…Why did being screamed at by my boss make me feel bad? That’s what you’re asking right now?” “Does that bother you?” They purposefully do not solve problems.
A lot of men are so beat to shit from such an early age that they can’t even put a name to a lot of emotions besides anger.
Who beats men to shit from such an early age? The majority of the people providing early childhood care are women. Elementary and middle school teachers, babysitters, daycare workers, hell, because of how pointlessly cruel the family court system is in this country, it’s difficult to legally be a father. Men are systematically prevented from raising children. Men have been arrested for taking their children to play in the park. Men get accused of pedophilia for existing near children.
Remember the sitcom Home Improvement, starring Tim Allen as Tim Taylor? There was an early episode that starts up with his sons playing with a few neighborhood kids, one of his kids (whichever one was played by Johnathan Taylor Thomas, remember him?) had an ordinary deck of cards, and was apparently using it to tell “fortunes.” The ace of spades was the “death card.” Well apparently he drew the “death card” on one of the neighborhood boys, and this scared him. He comes running in the house crying, and Tim immediately rushes over, hugs the boy, rubs his back and goes to ask what’s wrong, offer comfort, “It’s just a game, you’re not going to die.”
Wholesome little scene, right? Made me physically uncomfortable. Because if I was seen acting that way toward a young boy, I would be accused of molesting him. I have been so sexualized, my touch has been so sexualized, that I’m only allowed to touch people who intend to fuck me. I absolutely will not be seen hugging a child, even those related to me, because I don’t want to end up on a list.
Early childcare is almost entirely the domain of women, and little boys emerge from this, in your words, “so beat to shit.” It’s his fault though, right? He should figure it out and fix it?
I would love to date someone who doesn’t define their entire existence through their job.
Judging by what women say, they want a man who earns a lot of money, who doesn’t spend a lot of time at work, who has time for hobbies but doesn’t play video games, go to the gym, engage in sports, play with train sets or has a boat/motorcycle/dirt bike/whatever, and who doesn’t just hang around the house. The only creature real or fictional I’m aware of that fits within this criteria is Janet from The Good Place.
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Society absolutely perceives that. We can hardly help perceiving it when men are gunning us down, beating us to a pulp, and demanding our constant attention.
The thing is it’s a problem that society can’t solve. Only men can solve it.
How do you expect men to solve a problem made by a tiny fraction of people, mostly rich men but also rich women?
It wasn’t even a year ago that the un was making statements about how war affected women disproportionately when their husbands die in war. It was quite offensive
Remember, “Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.” -Hillary Clinton.
Oof that’s messed up. And I’d totally agree if she were just acknowledging that war affects women for those reasons, but it’s bonkers to compare and call women “the primary victims.”
That’s weird. Well, I’m gonna go catch a speeding bullet with my teeth, wish me luck!
Good luck, we’re all counting on you.
It feels like if the issue involves men it is not considered important. Boys struggle in school more now but only girls get attention, young men die to violence more, middle aged men die to suicide more, etc.
As a man, I’m okay with this. Take care of others, first. I have been afforded a myriad of privileges simply because my genitals are external. We could do with less men, honestly. I know a lot of misogynistic assholes and the world would have been better if they’d been aborted or castrated.
Go fuck yourself. You’re part of the problem
We really do not need to be that rude …
They aren’t wrong though. UnknownHandsome’s views are truly abhorrent.
Yeah but you do not converse with insulting somebody. If you want someone to change opinions maybe be a bit nice
The dude they’re responding to literally said he was fine with men dieing.
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Correct thing to do is treat everyone equally, not to change the unfair advantage into a disadvantage. Thats not equality.
Take care of everyone.
Sounds like you have some problems to work out
gr8 b8 m8
Modern problems require modern solutions. Identify as female.
“There’s been a lot of research into the decline in life expectancy in recent years, but no one has systematically analyzed why the gap between men and women has been widening since 2010,”
Since 2010, what happened in 2010? Was that when they started prescribing oxy willy nilly, maybe. I think women took as much though, why would bring down the life expectancy just for men.
100% with you on opioids being a leading cause.
To your 2nd point: in pretty much all drug abuse/addiction, men are more likely to abuse or become dependent, and they tend to use higher amounts on average.
The addiction rates of legally prescribed opioids is surprisingly small. The problem was pill mills and diversion to the secondary market. People who are looking to get high tend to have a very large chance of becoming addicted. If anything the pendulum has cut people on both sides. First they had pill mills and pills flooded the streets. Then they basically stopped almost all prescriptions and then you had everyone all the sudden scrambling for pills, real pills evaporated quickly. Fentanly 30s started flooding the streets and then just fentanyl powder sold as H, because why pay more for a pill if it’s the same stuff.
To your 2nd point: in pretty much all drug abuse/addiction, men are more likely to abuse or become dependent, and they tend to use higher amounts on average.
Well, that’s not great. Do we know why? If it’s the higher amounts part (and I suspect it is), just knowing that would maybe curb some from not taking so much. That seems like something that should be more well known. I guess it could be chemical make up too, there’s got to be studies.
It’s likely a combination of things, but two of the biggest are:
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Men on average isolate more, keep smaller (sometimes non-existent) social circles, and are less likely to reach out to others for support when they do have friends/family. Isolation is highly correlated with substance abuse of all kinds.
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Men are on average the higher risk takers. Be it nature or nurture, men disproportionately push safety boundaries for just about anything humans do, which results in high usage of drugs, higher overdose deaths, higher rates of severe accidents, etc.
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I feel like older men haven’t internalized positive masculinity as much as younger men, so i wouldn’t be suprised if men of a certain generation are driving down life expectancy because they self medicate at an even higher rate than women of that age group.
Clarification: Reason I say its older men is cause I’m picturing it being life expectancy, so older men doing worse things to their body kills them earlier. Also, we still have a long way to go with men and not saying younger women and younger men will not still have a disparity on unhealthy/destructive behaviors
Something happened in 2008
Don’t you DARE blame this on Obama.
I think the financial crisis and the resultant decade of falling living standards for the poor and lower middle are probably more of a factor than Obama’s election there.
Thanks Obama!
