“The whole Gaza Strip needs to be empty. Flattened. Just like in Auschwitz,” Metula Mayor David Azoulai said in a radio interview on Sunday, according toThe Times of Israel. “Let it be a museum for all the world to see what Israel can do. Let no one reside in the Gaza Strip for all the world to see, because October 7 was in a way a second Holocaust.”
How blinkered do you have to be to see the Hamas attacks on October 7 as akin to the Holocaust, but not see that your own determination to wipe out the entire people of Gaza resembles the genocidal intent behind the Holocaust?
I had family die in the work camps, die in the chambers, and die in the ghettos. If Gaza needs to become Auschwitz because you’re trying to shoehorn the Holocaust into the conversation, then October 7th was the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, you sick fuck. This mayor either needs a history lesson, a reminder to respect his family who died senselessly for their heritage, or would even do best to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. These blood-thirsty assholes need to figure out how to goddamn listen when others are crying before they repeat history’s worst atrocities.
Here’s a word I used to hear in Hebrew school and history lessons all the time: scapegoat. Look around you and try to identify who the scapegoat is. It ain’t us this time… Also, read the fucking room. If many of your most ardent supporters are Nazis, you’re probably doing a Nazi thing.
In 1939, German authorities began to concentrate Poland’s population of over three million Jews into a number of extremely crowded ghettos located in large Polish cities. The largest of these, the Warsaw Ghetto, collected approximately 300,000–400,000 people into a densely packed, 3.3 km2 area of Warsaw. Thousands of Jews were killed by rampant disease and starvation under SS-und-Polizeiführer Odilo Globocnik and SS-Standartenführer Ludwig Hahn, even before the mass deportations from the ghetto to the Treblinka extermination camp began.
They crowded those people in a small area with a high population density and they started to die of disease and starvation. Gosh gee, why does that sound so familiar? 🫠
🤔 I remember reading a book in school about a family that lived in the Warsaw ghetto. At the end of the book, an agency helped them smuggle the main character’s baby sister out in a basket, and he remarked to himself about how he knew she’d never know who her real family was.
Now, with all that context, that Poles where coexisting peacefully with Jews before the war, that countless of them have sacrificed their own lives and lives of their families to help them during their brutal extermination, even they now get called antisemitic when pointing out Israel’s tactics are no different than what Hitler did to them.
I’m not sure if anyone even cares anymore, and given how nukes are in the hands of most of the countries turning fascist including Israel, everyone on the planet needs to worry now.
That really is my bad. I wanted to reply to this quote which really stabbed at the heart of the problem and, for a moment, considered that I might confuse people by “speaking” directly to mayor for literary effect, but then decided I was being overly-anal. Sorry that I confused you, but yes, I was passionately angry at the mayor’s mischaracterization of the situation in order to play the helpless victim. The only offense committed by !floofloof@lemmy.ca is perhaps one of underfloofiness.
19,000 is the total I’ve seen, but I don’t think there are good figures on civilian vs. combatant deaths. I was assuming a very conservative 2:1, which I saw reported somewhere, but I assume the civilian share is much higher, given that at least 7,000 or more of the dead from Israeli attacks were children.
In any case the point is that if killing Israeli civilians is wrong then killing dozens of times more Palestinian civilians should also be wrong. It’s a shame that most of the American political leadership doesn’t see it that way and instead wants to send Israel even more weapons with which to murder a vastly disproportionate number of civilians to the losses suffered in Israel.
19,000 is the total I’ve seen, but I don’t think there are good figures on civilian vs. combatant deaths. I was assuming a very conservative 2:1, which I saw reported somewhere,
I think you might be misremembering; that 2:1 is the number for October 7th.
Seems like the vast majority of those killed in Gaza are civilians.
The IDF claims 7k were “terrorists” but of course no proof for that. So far they have said anything from “we have captured/killed a dozen Hamas fighters” to “they are surrendering in hundreds”… but in the former example, a family of 35 members all die and among them is maybe, somewhere in the rubble a single Hamas government official or Hamas errand boy… and the latter, well, we’ve seen the pictures of “hundreds of Hamas fighters surrendering” and they all seemed to be civilians who got tortured.
I think the IDF could barely kill any militant fighters and that’s why they have no figures or bodies or photographic evidence or any way to verify whom they’ve killed. Add to that, the majority of those people killed in Gaza were in their homes or a refugee camp.
In the minds of those who see Palestinians as “untermenschen” - subhumans - their lives don’t count the same as human lives.
(An Israeli government official quite literally and openly in a press conference deemed Palestinians to be “human animals”).
This shit we’re seeing is the violent expression of the most cold, cruel and extreme racism, all endorsed and even militarilly and diplomatically supported by the US (which is the ultimate hypocrisy from such loudly self-proclaimed defenders of “freedom”).
For some, “never again” means “never again let this happen to any People”, to others, it means “never again let this happen to us”. Unfortunately, it is much more common in the Israeli right to understand it the second way.
To be honest, after the thousands of years of literally everyone else treating the Jewish people in that manner, I don’t blame them for lashing out.
And don’t waste your breath with that two wrongs don’t make a right bullshit; in the real world they absolutely do, all the time. All punishment involves harming someone else and is therefore wrong to you twits. Harm isn’t always wrong.
I only sympathize with the Palestinians because they genuinely are innocent. Dumbass groups like Hamas who think they can provoke others by enacting cruelties and then shift world focus on their enemies’ reaction to them instead of rightfully blaming them for all of the chaos and destruction? Nah. Miss me with that shit. I’m not some rube who can be manipulated in such a manner the way the rest of you are.
So you also don’t blame Hamas for what they did by that logic. Or is 100 years too short for your sensibilities, would another century of abuse help? Gaza is already worse than the Warsaw ghetto in the 30s-40s, when do they get their war crime pass?
Also, quick reminder that the current Israeli government has sent cash and resources to Hamas because people like you will see hamas’ behavior and think they aren’t the ones being provoked intentionally to generate a good causus belli for sociopaths to glass the region. The Likud party has in their mission statement that Israel will own the land from the sea to the Jordan river so Hamas isn’t the only party with “river to the sea” rhetoric.
I don’t waste time blaming either side because it’s a war they have been fighting for a thousand years and will keep fighting until one side successfully wipes out the other. Which means unless you want genocide, you’ll have endless war.
Peace is not always possible or desirable, and that’s a fact of life you need to learn to accept.
Now you can choose to get mad at me for telling you hard truths you don’t want to hear, or you can find something better to do with your life than waste oxygen arguing with random strangers on the internet. Your choice.
Positive peace is always desirable unless you’re a person with violent tendencies. Obviously “peace” on its own bases its value on the conditions of the peace. You haven’t dropped anything but smug proclamations about the most basic philosophy 101 material.
I will say though , interesting way to waste your time on the internet, snarking people for wasting time on the internet.
Oh and here’s a little truth for you, you don’t use oxygen to type. You use it to speak.
By all indications Germans (at least their political elites and a large part of the population) seem to have learned “never again” as being “never again do this to Jews” rather than “never again do this to other human beings”, hence they keep on giving unwavering support to Israel.
The racism never ended, all that happenned is that an etnicity who were “one of them” became “one of us”, hence the continued support of Israel and their actions: it’s “those like us” doing it to “them”, hence different moral limits if any apply than if it was “anybody vs those like us” (as it was in the Russian invasion of Ukraine were even a fraction done to Ukranians of what is being done to Palestinians led this very same German leadership to impose sanctions and break its long standing rules and start providing military help to the victims).
If there is one (somewhat surprising) thing this situation in Gaza brough to light, is how Germany doesn’t seem to have learned the absolute nature of the Evil of hyper-racist ultranationalist Fascism, instead it’s all seen as relative, the Evil being not in the nature of the actions but in the specific etnicity of the Fascists and their victims.
For such people the limits on to the harm done to “them” are entirelly different of the limits on the harm done to “us” - it’s the ultimate two-weights-two-measures and you can see that splattered all over Israeli propaganda (starting by the whole “it ain’t terrorism if done by us” that anchors most of the messaging).
That said, these types being the full-blown german-style cold murderous ultra-racist Fascists, in their mind it’s probably more “der ubermensch” vs “der untermensch” than “us” vs “them”.
The Nazis at first didn’t really care whether the Jews were expelled or murdered, they just wanted them eliminated from Germany. Some combination of expelling Jews and encouraging Jewish emigration was the initial plan.
For the life of me I wish I understood why it’s so hard for people to see that genociding one group of people is the same as any other group of people and that Never Again is pretty much right now.
Look mate, the Israeli government and a significant proportion of the population (enough that these types were elected) are extreme racists - which is painfully obvious in the historical track record of how the dehumanizing way they referred to Palestinians, especially more recently in things like an Israeli government official openly saying in a press conference that Palestinians are “human animals” - so in their mind Palestinians are not people like Israelis are.
In such a twisted view, it absolutelly is morally acceptable to treat “human animals” quite differently from how you treat “chosen people”.
It’s the very same “untermenschen” thinking as the Nazis, just with a different target group.
Who cares about accuracy or the truth these days amiright?
The ones who care are those who think ethnic cleansing is somehow less bad than genocide, and they realllllly want to show it for some reason, but not for “accuracy”.
It does make a difference. It’s important context.
You can still denounce it. You can still make holocaust comparisons. But it’s important context that shouldn’t be left out. Because you’re perfectly aware of the implication otherwise.
Yeah, I agree, it’s good to be accurate. However, I doubt that that was the real intention of @ArtikBanana@lemmy.dbzer0.com. That’s the point, hope it’s clear now.
They weren’t saying this for “accuracy” unfortunately… otherwise no one would have had an issue with it. It’s the undertone that stinks.
He said that Palestinians should be transferred to the Palestinian camps in Lebanon first. Before Gaza is flattened.
Corrections:
He said that Palestinians should be transferred ethnically cleansed/forcefully displaced to the Palestinian camps ghettos (or maybe I don’t even need to correct this one lol) in Lebanon first. Before Gaza is flattened their homes, memories, and livelihoods are forever destroyed.
The US doesn’t have a great track record of “not supporting distopian regimes”. They’ve either installed leaders with a dictatorial bent when the elected government wasn’t doing what they wanted, or just supported their puppet in the area even though they did horrific things. Generally they think “the end justifies the means”.
Apart from WW2, I can’t think of any major foreign operation that Americans were involved with that hasn’t blown up in their face sooner or later.
Because it’s assumed Israel’s detractors also want to commit genocide, just on the Jewish people, who have largely been the victims of such throughout history.
Now the tables are turned and the world doesn’t really know how to feel about it.
I’m pretty sure that the hundreds of millions of dollars that George W Bush personally owed/owes to the Bin Laden family, that they loaned to him to prospect oil in Texas, which he somehow failed at, was a bigger personal motivator than just our support of Israel up to that point.
Just read Bin Laden’s actual words. He never mentions “your president personally owes me money.” Lol. But I’m all for seeing what evidence you have to back up your claims.
How blinkered do you have to be to see the Hamas attacks on October 7 as akin to the Holocaust, but not see that your own determination to wipe out the entire people of Gaza resembles the genocidal intent behind the Holocaust?
I had family die in the work camps, die in the chambers, and die in the ghettos. If Gaza needs to become Auschwitz because you’re trying to shoehorn the Holocaust into the conversation, then October 7th was the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, you sick fuck. This mayor either needs a history lesson, a reminder to respect his family who died senselessly for their heritage, or would even do best to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. These blood-thirsty assholes need to figure out how to goddamn listen when others are crying before they repeat history’s worst atrocities.
Here’s a word I used to hear in Hebrew school and history lessons all the time: scapegoat. Look around you and try to identify who the scapegoat is. It ain’t us this time… Also, read the fucking room. If many of your most ardent supporters are Nazis, you’re probably doing a Nazi thing.
I’m just reading this on Wikipedia:
They crowded those people in a small area with a high population density and they started to die of disease and starvation. Gosh gee, why does that sound so familiar? 🫠
🤔 I remember reading a book in school about a family that lived in the Warsaw ghetto. At the end of the book, an agency helped them smuggle the main character’s baby sister out in a basket, and he remarked to himself about how he knew she’d never know who her real family was.
It always stuck with me.
Now, with all that context, that Poles where coexisting peacefully with Jews before the war, that countless of them have sacrificed their own lives and lives of their families to help them during their brutal extermination, even they now get called antisemitic when pointing out Israel’s tactics are no different than what Hitler did to them.
I’m not sure if anyone even cares anymore, and given how nukes are in the hands of most of the countries turning fascist including Israel, everyone on the planet needs to worry now.
Dude. I could be wrong, but I think the guy you’re replying to is on your side. Are you raging at him or the mayor? Because it seems like the first
To me, it clearly seemed to be directed at the mayor.
Okay. I’m clearly in the minority. I’m not sure why it was a reply and not a top level comment, but I’m willing to go with it
That really is my bad. I wanted to reply to this quote which really stabbed at the heart of the problem and, for a moment, considered that I might confuse people by “speaking” directly to mayor for literary effect, but then decided I was being overly-anal. Sorry that I confused you, but yes, I was passionately angry at the mayor’s mischaracterization of the situation in order to play the helpless victim. The only offense committed by !floofloof@lemmy.ca is perhaps one of underfloofiness.
Most of us here share your outrage. Peace, bro.
I may never recover from my outrage over the unfloofiness of this situation.
Maybe smoke less of the maryjayjay. Dude.
And if the death of, by the latest count, 764 Israeli civilians is a Holocaust, what does that make the death of 12,000 Palestinian civilians?
19000+ as of 4 days ago, and this is the minimum number since it only includes people Gazan hospitals physically counted.
19,000 is the total I’ve seen, but I don’t think there are good figures on civilian vs. combatant deaths. I was assuming a very conservative 2:1, which I saw reported somewhere, but I assume the civilian share is much higher, given that at least 7,000 or more of the dead from Israeli attacks were children.
In any case the point is that if killing Israeli civilians is wrong then killing dozens of times more Palestinian civilians should also be wrong. It’s a shame that most of the American political leadership doesn’t see it that way and instead wants to send Israel even more weapons with which to murder a vastly disproportionate number of civilians to the losses suffered in Israel.
I think you might be misremembering; that 2:1 is the number for October 7th.
Seems like the vast majority of those killed in Gaza are civilians.
The IDF claims 7k were “terrorists” but of course no proof for that. So far they have said anything from “we have captured/killed a dozen Hamas fighters” to “they are surrendering in hundreds”… but in the former example, a family of 35 members all die and among them is maybe, somewhere in the rubble a single Hamas government official or Hamas errand boy… and the latter, well, we’ve seen the pictures of “hundreds of Hamas fighters surrendering” and they all seemed to be civilians who got tortured.
I think the IDF could barely kill any militant fighters and that’s why they have no figures or bodies or photographic evidence or any way to verify whom they’ve killed. Add to that, the majority of those people killed in Gaza were in their homes or a refugee camp.
In the minds of those who see Palestinians as “untermenschen” - subhumans - their lives don’t count the same as human lives. (An Israeli government official quite literally and openly in a press conference deemed Palestinians to be “human animals”).
This shit we’re seeing is the violent expression of the most cold, cruel and extreme racism, all endorsed and even militarilly and diplomatically supported by the US (which is the ultimate hypocrisy from such loudly self-proclaimed defenders of “freedom”).
Freedom (Terms and conditions apply)
And to actually say you wanted to recreate the horrors of it. Like explicitly say that. That’s a special level of non-self-awareness.
Zionists are the new Nazis.
Treat Zionism like you would treat Nazism.
Treat Zionists like you would treat Nazis.
Israel has killed more civilians in 2 months than Russia has killed in 2 years, just to put things into perspective.
For some, “never again” means “never again let this happen to any People”, to others, it means “never again let this happen to us”. Unfortunately, it is much more common in the Israeli right to understand it the second way.
The Israeli right: flatten the whole place, I want to salt the earth so they have nowhere to return to and they’re destroyed forever.
Israeli moderates: the IDF can have a little white phosphorous, as a treat
To be honest, after the thousands of years of literally everyone else treating the Jewish people in that manner, I don’t blame them for lashing out.
And don’t waste your breath with that two wrongs don’t make a right bullshit; in the real world they absolutely do, all the time. All punishment involves harming someone else and is therefore wrong to you twits. Harm isn’t always wrong.
I only sympathize with the Palestinians because they genuinely are innocent. Dumbass groups like Hamas who think they can provoke others by enacting cruelties and then shift world focus on their enemies’ reaction to them instead of rightfully blaming them for all of the chaos and destruction? Nah. Miss me with that shit. I’m not some rube who can be manipulated in such a manner the way the rest of you are.
It’s all wrongs on both sides and always will be.
So you also don’t blame Hamas for what they did by that logic. Or is 100 years too short for your sensibilities, would another century of abuse help? Gaza is already worse than the Warsaw ghetto in the 30s-40s, when do they get their war crime pass?
Also, quick reminder that the current Israeli government has sent cash and resources to Hamas because people like you will see hamas’ behavior and think they aren’t the ones being provoked intentionally to generate a good causus belli for sociopaths to glass the region. The Likud party has in their mission statement that Israel will own the land from the sea to the Jordan river so Hamas isn’t the only party with “river to the sea” rhetoric.
I don’t waste time blaming either side because it’s a war they have been fighting for a thousand years and will keep fighting until one side successfully wipes out the other. Which means unless you want genocide, you’ll have endless war.
Peace is not always possible or desirable, and that’s a fact of life you need to learn to accept.
Now you can choose to get mad at me for telling you hard truths you don’t want to hear, or you can find something better to do with your life than waste oxygen arguing with random strangers on the internet. Your choice.
Positive peace is always desirable unless you’re a person with violent tendencies. Obviously “peace” on its own bases its value on the conditions of the peace. You haven’t dropped anything but smug proclamations about the most basic philosophy 101 material.
I will say though , interesting way to waste your time on the internet, snarking people for wasting time on the internet.
Oh and here’s a little truth for you, you don’t use oxygen to type. You use it to speak.
Starting to sound more and more like excusing war crimes.
That’s the way you sound when you accused BLM protesters of similar things.
🤔 Not sure I talked about BLM activists for years. Link?
I blame them if they are genocidal Zionists, and so should you. The rest are cool though.
By all indications Germans (at least their political elites and a large part of the population) seem to have learned “never again” as being “never again do this to Jews” rather than “never again do this to other human beings”, hence they keep on giving unwavering support to Israel.
The racism never ended, all that happenned is that an etnicity who were “one of them” became “one of us”, hence the continued support of Israel and their actions: it’s “those like us” doing it to “them”, hence different moral limits if any apply than if it was “anybody vs those like us” (as it was in the Russian invasion of Ukraine were even a fraction done to Ukranians of what is being done to Palestinians led this very same German leadership to impose sanctions and break its long standing rules and start providing military help to the victims).
If there is one (somewhat surprising) thing this situation in Gaza brough to light, is how Germany doesn’t seem to have learned the absolute nature of the Evil of hyper-racist ultranationalist Fascism, instead it’s all seen as relative, the Evil being not in the nature of the actions but in the specific etnicity of the Fascists and their victims.
For such people the limits on to the harm done to “them” are entirelly different of the limits on the harm done to “us” - it’s the ultimate two-weights-two-measures and you can see that splattered all over Israeli propaganda (starting by the whole “it ain’t terrorism if done by us” that anchors most of the messaging).
That said, these types being the full-blown german-style cold murderous ultra-racist Fascists, in their mind it’s probably more “der ubermensch” vs “der untermensch” than “us” vs “them”.
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Well how nice that this now makes it different 😊 /s
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The Nazis at first didn’t really care whether the Jews were expelled or murdered, they just wanted them eliminated from Germany. Some combination of expelling Jews and encouraging Jewish emigration was the initial plan.
For the life of me I wish I understood why it’s so hard for people to see that genociding one group of people is the same as any other group of people and that Never Again is pretty much right now.
Look mate, the Israeli government and a significant proportion of the population (enough that these types were elected) are extreme racists - which is painfully obvious in the historical track record of how the dehumanizing way they referred to Palestinians, especially more recently in things like an Israeli government official openly saying in a press conference that Palestinians are “human animals” - so in their mind Palestinians are not people like Israelis are.
In such a twisted view, it absolutelly is morally acceptable to treat “human animals” quite differently from how you treat “chosen people”.
It’s the very same “untermenschen” thinking as the Nazis, just with a different target group.
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What do YOU think their point is? 🤔
It’s all Nazi shit man, stop trying to pretend there’s a not-so-bad form that’s essential context.
.
The ones who care are those who think ethnic cleansing is somehow less bad than genocide, and they realllllly want to show it for some reason, but not for “accuracy”.
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I’m saying I don’t think that you discuss stuff in good faith.
Antisemite! /s
I believe firmly now that those who don’t want anyone to compare anything to the holocaust are the ones that will enable it to be repeated.
It does make a difference. It’s important context.
You can still denounce it. You can still make holocaust comparisons. But it’s important context that shouldn’t be left out. Because you’re perfectly aware of the implication otherwise.
Yeah, I agree, it’s good to be accurate. However, I doubt that that was the real intention of @ArtikBanana@lemmy.dbzer0.com. That’s the point, hope it’s clear now.
They weren’t saying this for “accuracy” unfortunately… otherwise no one would have had an issue with it. It’s the undertone that stinks.
And the “undertone that stinks” is anything that doesn’t agree with your position 100%.
Sure, whatever floats your boat 🙄
You wouldn’t respect a holocaust denier, would you? So why would I respect someone like ArtikBanana who is denying another genocide?
Corrections:
He said that Palestinians should be
transferredethnically cleansed/forcefully displaced to the Palestiniancampsghettos (or maybe I don’t even need to correct this one lol) in Lebanon first. BeforeGaza is flattenedtheir homes, memories, and livelihoods are forever destroyed.Then what will happen in Gaza when Palestinians will be gone ?
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I think it’s fucking dumb how the US supports Israel.
We only got attacked on 9/11 because of our support of Israel. Now we send them more support because they get attacked.
What exactly does Israel do for the US? Seems like being the main motivation behind the 9/11 attacks really outweighs any benefits they may have.
I don’t see any benefits from supporting Israel, personally, as a United States citizen.
The US doesn’t have a great track record of “not supporting distopian regimes”. They’ve either installed leaders with a dictatorial bent when the elected government wasn’t doing what they wanted, or just supported their puppet in the area even though they did horrific things. Generally they think “the end justifies the means”.
Apart from WW2, I can’t think of any major foreign operation that Americans were involved with that hasn’t blown up in their face sooner or later.
Because it’s assumed Israel’s detractors also want to commit genocide, just on the Jewish people, who have largely been the victims of such throughout history.
Now the tables are turned and the world doesn’t really know how to feel about it.
I’m pretty sure that the hundreds of millions of dollars that George W Bush personally owed/owes to the Bin Laden family, that they loaned to him to prospect oil in Texas, which he somehow failed at, was a bigger personal motivator than just our support of Israel up to that point.
You’d be wrong about that.
Just read Bin Laden’s actual words. He never mentions “your president personally owes me money.” Lol. But I’m all for seeing what evidence you have to back up your claims.
I generally support Israel’s fight against Hamas, but yeah, that’s pretty fucking dumb.