… its a website run by the US Government. Why does it have such large downtimes in this day and age?
We know why but pointing out how Republicans only policy position is “explicitly kneecap everything so we can privatize it and funnel money to our friends at non negotiated rates 5x the normal end user retail cost” is apparently not allowed because some guys like guys and some people want to alter a pronoun by one letter or some such shit.
at this point i don’t even think its that deep anymore sometimes. Sure they do things like that. But at this point…sometimes they really are just fucking cartoon villains. Being evil just because.
That’s how I feel gesturing broadly at the 3 or 4 states they’re still actively fighting against minimum marriage age laws.
Their voters out here voting for them to “protect children” from pronouns, from books, from learning - then turn a blind eye when they vote to make marrying at 12 legal again or to force 12 year olds to give birth or to send 12 year olds back to the mines. Not only are the politicians cartoon villains, in 2023 so are their voters. Full Stop.
The answer is much less exciting. It’s mainframes.
Plenty of systems operate just fine without 4-6 hours of daily scheduled downtime. This is just deliberate.
Wow this I don’t understand at all.
translation: “It’s impossible to have a conversation about the GOP “Starve the beast” policy because the conversation will be derailed by “LGBT people exist, something something woke ideology””
Here have my Lemmy gold 🏆
This is sublime
I’m going to have a guess and suggest that the website is probably integrated with some much older mainframe system and a batch process or several batch processes run daily overnight to shuttle data between the two systems to keep them updated and in sync.
Syncing the two sets of data while the database is live and changing is a pain the the bum, so they freeze it while the data transfers are taking place.
This is the real answer. Main frame batch processing.
And till you haven’t experienced it, it seems like an excuse. Why can’t you simply do it all the time. Why can’t you get rid of the mainframe, etc.
But if only it were that easy. There is a reason IBM can still acquire multi billion dollar companies and then run them into the ground.
My company has maybe a couple million customers and can’t get rid of its mainframe and in areas that it’s gotten the process away from the mainframe, batch patronizing is still a thing. Because that is the only way to guarantee integrity.
So yea. I wish your comment gets more up votes. Because it is not a conspiracy, it is a technical limitation.
Its the conspiracy of capitalism. If nothing else this is another example of how megacorps have more say in government operations that the entire population.
It can be, but it’s also an issue of “move fast and break things” doesn’t work in all environments.
You don’t want your bank to have an oops with your checking account, or your medical records to get messed up because someone didn’t code it well enough. If it works and is stable, there needs to be a demonstrable benefit and a guarantee that it will keep working when moving to a newer system. Usually on a budget of “what do you mean you need a budget, just do it”.
I like working with legacy systems. Post something, go fart around on your phone for fifteen minutes while you wait for it to post.
I had to do some legacy app modernization for one of the largest telecoms companies in the US, and their mainframe system and the UI, while ugly, performed so much faster than the modern approach.
Given, we weren’t the most talented team out there, but rendering the UI on the server side was unmatched in performance versus what we could get out of a web browser. I was the UI guy so I didn’t really touch mainframe side, but it was wild to me that they made this system like 30 years ago and it worked so much better than our modern implementation
I’m not sure whether I want to work with your team or not, considering all fifteen of those minutes farting I get to bill to the client
lol i was more or less just remarking on the fact that yes mainframe and other legacy apps are pretty old, however that does not mean that they’re necessarily worse than a modern implementation
This also explains, very basically, why financial systems are the way they are. The backend is ancient but they know how it works so it stays the same and we see it’s weird quirks all the time.
More like, they know of they try to change, and their is an issue and people’s statements payments are at risk, it’s their ass.
Oh it’s hugely risky. I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to change it. But most people don’t know it’s all held together with duck tape and bubblegum.
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That’s the actual difference between right and left. Right is “me, me, me” and offended for every little morsel that does not go to me. Left is we, with all implications.
That said, compared to other countries the democrates aren’t left at all, but instead center right.
The Democrats call themselves liberals. Liberalism is considered a centrist ideology across the globe. So not a surprise they are not left wing.
Well, they are left-er than the rightwing nationalist extremists that run the GOP. But yeah, they are center right.
Per the New York Times, 2018
Their tor doesn’t seem to be paywalled.
Red counties, which are overwhelmingly Republican, tend to report higher charitable contributions than Democratic-dominated blue counties, according to a new study on giving, although giving in blue counties is often bolstered by a combination of charitable donations and higher taxes.
Maybe they come out more or less even, I don’t know. But to say conservatives are “me me me” and liberals are “we we we” is just ignorant and doesn’t jive with the facts.
I a little bit of hope that you’ll read this and change the conservative strawman you have in your head just a little bit. You can’t engage in honest conversation when you do that.
The problem is that you don’t understand conservative viewpoints. Not that you disagree, that you don’t understand.
Here’s a short reading list, with liberal authors, about it:
- “The Moral Roots of Ideology” by Jonathan Haidt and Jesse Graham (2007):
This study explores the moral foundations theory and suggests that liberals and conservatives tend to prioritize different moral values, leading to divergent political ideologies. Understanding these underlying moral foundations can contribute to a better understanding of political differences.
- “The Ideological Animal” by John T. Jost, Christopher M. Federico, and Jaime L. Napier (2009)
This article discusses the psychological underpinnings of political ideology and explores factors that influence individuals’ understanding of opposing viewpoints, such as openness to experience, cognitive flexibility, and exposure to diverse perspectives.
- “Beyond Ideology: Predicting Political Bias and Attitude Extremity from Personal Need for Structure” by John T. Jost, Jack Glaser, Arie W. Kruglanski, and Frank J. Sulloway (2003):
This study examines the role of psychological factors, such as the need for structure and certainty, in shaping political bias and the ability to understand opposing views.
Or just continue to spew hate. Your call, buddy.
higher charitable contributions
What counts as a ‘charitable contribution?’ Is giving to your evangelical megachurch counted? Is giving to Donald Trump’s campaign counted?
That’s not a very good metric without context.
Not to mention that it’s questionable whether the average Republican gives more than the average Democrat, or if it is just a case of a small population of extremely wealthy individuals donating large amounts for reasons of tax benefits (in addition to the political motivations you mentioned).
Then there’s also this from one of the authors of the study: ‘It also wasn’t obvious “whether donors were being purely generous or whether they would also benefit from their donation. This relationship is called consumption philanthropy, in which people give to a religious organization or a school from which they will derive a benefit in the form of, say, a better religious education program or a new gymnasium.” Giving to a food bank or a homeless shelter has a very different outcome than does giving to a private school.’ (https://nonprofitquarterly.org/republicans-give-more-to-charity-than-democrats-but-theres-a-bigger-story-here/)
“Without context” is one of the favorite argument methods of conservatives. It’s not that they disagree about the context. They don’t understand the concept of context nor its relevance.
The highest taking nonprofit in my county is the extraordinarily conservative mormon cult. They don’t have a lot of folk out here. They take in over five hundred grand a week in my town alone. Not a cent of those donations stay in my town. It all goes to this fund. The liberal folk in my town donate to stuff like the homeless shelter, the hospital, the fire department, stuff like that. Context IS important!
I have at least a nodding acquaintance with that work and while I think it’s worth considering and talking about, I don’t find it to be at all the most convincing explanation for conservatism and am far more persuaded by conservatism as being motivated by a desire for the preservation of hierarchy that manifests itself through said psychological traits, but that is the ultimate prior that informs them. Otherwise we would expect to see liberalism and conservatism more evenly distributed throughout our population, as with other psychological traits, but we don’t, to the contrary, they are very geographically dependent.
So while I don’t think that psychology has nothing to say about the issue, I definitely don’t think that its the most important factor.
The fact that this is downvoted speaks volumes about this place. Might as well be /r/politics.
It was a link to the NYT and a list of three article by Liberal writers. And it gets downvoted for not being liberal enough.
Have fun with your strawmen, assholes.
Democrats aren’t left either. Only an american would confuse liberals with the left, because there hasn’t been a relevant left party in decades. They are just not right-wing extremists like the average republican.
You are living in a two-party system. What you call a democracy doesn’t have a lot to do with an actually democratic system. A binary choice every few years does not mean democracy in the slightest.
It’s a feature, not a bug.
How and why would that result in a website having limited hours of service?
it’s part of the overall enshittification of that which does not benefit the rich
Archaic hardware and software requiring downtime on the backend to do standard maintenance like backups, software changes, changing vacuums tubes, pulling moths out of relays.
As opposed to modern hardware and software architectures that allow for standard maintenance without downtime.
The excuses vary (taking systems offline to run archaic batch processing, pretending to want to protect jobs by not having machines outperform workers, etc.), but the bottom line is that a certain political faction deliberately writes stupid rules like this as sabotage in order to prove that government doesn’t work.
It’s the same sort of reason why the local license plate office charges a “convenience fee” to renew your tag online even though it costs the public less than paying a clerk to process it in person.
Can you actually prove that? Seems suspect because usually partisan BS remains in Congress, while tiny administrative details like that get written by agency bureaucrats, who in general could care less about said BS.
Not really. The real answer is that different parts of the federal government are underfunded or overfunded according to political ideology and expedience. This is a great example; the SSA is underfunded while the military is overfunded which results in clear performance differences.
You’ll never hear a conservative bitch about the US military saying that it can’t do anything right, and it’s like, yeah, duh, because it has a huge fucking budget and basically gets anything it asks for.
Social safety net programs? Not so much.
Legacy software exists everywhere.
I particularly enjoy the “if you need immediate assistance” note for a telephone line that’s open even fewer hours than the website. it’s positioned as an alternative to the site, but absolutely isn’t. Also, if that message is only displayed when the site is closed, there are no hours when the phone line is open but the site is closed, so who’s it helping? You couldwrite it down and call it when it’s open, but the site is also going to be open then, several hours earlier in fact, so is less “immediate” than the site that’s closed.
I think it’s less “this line is for emergencies” and more “our online process could takes days to get a response, here’s a line to a real human”.
Well damn, that web server has a good union.
The hours unavailable:
Day Time Offline Start Stop Monday - Friday 4 hours 1am 5am Saturday 6 hours 11pm 5am Sunday 8½ hours 11:30pm 8am Total 34½ hours/week The first one sounds like “scheduled maintenance” gone awry. Like for something that takes 5 minutes to run that you tell your boss will take an hour, who tells his boss it’ll take two hours, boss then says “let’s double that to be safe”.
I wanna know WHY it is unavailable. Does the system crash if there’s not enough paper in the dot-matrix printer? Are the HTTP responses being filled out manually in real time?
We have the same for the tax system in Sweden. The reason there is multi part but two big ones are:
Guarantees around how long time processing your tax information will take. But this gets harder if your information comes in at off hours since the tax information still needs a human stamp of approval (which really is making sure the system didn’t flag it as manual review which happens at random and if there are discrepancies)
The second, related one, is that they do batch processing at night and while they could queue data for the next day doing so would require a rewrite of the law guaranteeing a certain processing time, since if your data comes in after the start of the batch run it won’t run until the next day, which would be hard to properly inform people about in a way they’ll accept. Better then to simply not accept it then.
It’s like saying “This law ensures your application will be processed in 48hrs” then everyone rejoice and vote! But instead of adding more manpower to process they limit the application coming in. Sneaky.
While I get your point I don’t really agree. This law/requirement on the tax agency predates digital tax forms and is the same if you send in on paper. It’s more about how they don’t want to make things more complicated by having different rules for different media. It’s still so much more simple to use the digital forms / system and very few people actually need these systems online during the night and even fewer companies. The benefit is simply far outweighed by the cost. Remember it would be tax payers that have to pay for the system being available 24/7 with everything that entails in increased support costs and infrastructure costs due to the higher SLA levels required from all parties involved.
Most government sites from NY also keep business hours
I asked my family’s lawyer about it and he said that the time open and closed is a law. So they have to “close down” certain sites at certain times to comply with those laws
Great, so some governments operate like a fridge in Sabbath Mode
What exactly does Sabbath mode do? Is it like a burst of deep freeze so the appliance can power down Fri-Sat and stay cold, or what?
Asking as a renter with Sabbath mode on the fridge in my apartment.
Orthodox Jews aren’t allowed to interact with certain things on the Sabbath, so the temperature display is turned off and other stuff is automated so no adjustments can be made on that day.
That’s stupid.
You should only pay taxes for purchases/income during their business hours then.
I’ve seen websites of local stores in the bible belt that weren’t reachable on sundays, but a government site not working at certain times is just weird and backwards.
… its a website run by the US Government. Why does it have such large downtimes in this day and age?
In case you were unaware, the US government sucks at everything but killing people, and sometimes they take 20yr to do that. They just flat out suck, there’s your “why.”
One might say that this website has some of the best union behind it, perharps on the entire planet.
Maybe they need to send you your http request manually
Well, you see now, if you reverse the letters in the website address it spells exactly why it has issues.
Cause it has a lot of SAS?
…so it would be stupid if this works, but it’s a stupid problem in the first place, so try changing the time on your computer to be within their operational hours.
I recall cheesing videogames with that back in the day, and the UI of a halfway decent videogame would put most govt web design to shame. Worth a shot?
On one hand, this seems unlikely to work because it’s easier to check the server’s clock for the time. On the other, it’d be a mistake to expect the government to take the straightforward option when there’s a perfectly good ass-backwards way to screw it up.
^this guy govts
That’s not going to work on a website with restrictions like this. The restriction is set on the web server, not on the client. Limiting client access by what time it is where THEY are is not a thing.
The NC unemployment was website goes offline for maintenance every night. It’s so needlessly complicated on purpose.
There is a reason and not what you think.
Look here: https://kbin.social/m/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world/t/162927/-/comment/639904
I can’t see the comments you linked, but do see the other comments regarding data shuffle. My point still stands. Needlessly complicated. This could be updated if the state managed itself properly.
You didn’t miss anything, everybody is giving them a pass because they have an old mainframe and until you’ve had to sync one you just don’t know. We all know the reason the government is still using mainframes from the 70s. You mean to tell me there’s no company that’s ever migrated away from a mainframe? It’s always a budget issue. And in the US anything that isn’t military spending is a budget issue.
Your point is incorrect. It is not needlessly complicated. It has to do with mainframe batch processing times.
It’s not a conspiracy, it is a technical challenge that is not easy to some. It is complicated, but not needlessly. If it was easy, it would have been fixed.
I am sure there are a number of private companies that do the same but simply don’t tell you.
E.g., every bank has a cut off time for transfers, same reason.
Okay - fair. Good points. I yield. Thank you for the info - truly.
…aand, we’re back to Web 0.0.
By the way, is this how most sites are going to work in Metaverse?
It’s probably going to feel more like Watson in that Sherlock Holmes videogame
Probs yeah. Though you’ll see it in VR!
