Rights advocates in the United States are urging President Joe Biden to end his administration’s “complicity” in Israeli rights abuses after key members of Israel’s government backed the idea of pushing Palestinians out of Gaza.

Far-right Israeli ministers Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich said this week that Israel should “encourage emigration” from the coastal enclave, home to an estimated 2.3 million Palestinians.

“If there are 100,000 or 200,000 Arabs in Gaza and not two million Arabs, the entire discussion on the day after [the war ends] will be totally different,” Smotrich said on Sunday, calling for the “voluntary migration” of Palestinians.

A day later, Ben-Gvir, who oversees national security, made a similar appeal, saying it was “a correct, just, moral and humane solution”, Israeli media outlets reported.

  • SCB@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    4
    ·
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    It’s not whataboutism to demonstrate that an election-significant number of Democrats believe Hamas bullshit over reality, and that the number of people who believe that is enough to change Dem support from strong majority agreement with the President to disagreement.

    It’s also not whataboutism to point out that nearly a third of people polled have generally no opinion on such basic things as “did the Holocaust happen” or “was the Hamas terror attack a big deal” or “does Hamas target civilians.”

    War does indeed suck and you’re allowed to not like it and even use your irresponsibly inflammatory language, but it’s absurd to suggest these comments are whataboutism.

    • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      17
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      It’s not whataboutism to demonstrate that an election-significant number of Democrats believe Hamas bullshit over reality

      Even if the pro-IDF propaganda piece you linked to had successfully demonstrated that, yes it would still be a whataboutism.

      What Americans believe has no bearing on whether the Israeli government should be allowed to systematically slaughter and demolish their way through Palestinians, including children, at a rate completely unheard of anywhere in the world in recent years.

      It’s also not whataboutism to point out that nearly a third of people polled have generally no opinion on such basic things as “did the Holocaust happen” or “was the Hamas terror attack a big deal” or “does Hamas target civilians.”

      Yes it is. That is by definition whataboutism. Maybe you need to look up what whataboutism is. While you’re at it, look up “bad faith arguments” and several logical fallacies.

      War does indeed suck

      And war crimes perpetrated against a mostly defenseless civilization population of over 50% children are much worse.

      you’re allowed to not like it

      Gee, thanks! So generous of you!

      irresponsibly accurate inflammatory language

      Fixed that for you

      it’s absurd to suggest these comments are whataboutism.

      Again, just Google it. You can also use a better search engine, but PLEASE look up the word you keep pretending you know the meaning of.

      • SCB@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        11 months ago

        Even if the pro-IDF propaganda piece you linked to had successfully demonstrated that, yes it would still be whataboutism since what Americans believe has no bearing on whether the Israeli government should be allowed to systematically slaughter and demolish their way through Palestinians, including children, at a rate completely unheard of anywhere in the world in recent years.

        You do understand that you are literally expressing a thing that some Americans believe, yes? Like, you get that your position is an opinion, right?

        • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          11
          ·
          11 months ago

          Yes, it is indeed an opinion that committing atrocities is a bad thing to do. Well done on finally getting something right.

          It’s a VERY popular opinion though, one shared by so many people that the world has decided that people are not allowed to do that bad thing.

          That the Israeli Apartheid regime is committing genocide, ethnic cleansing and domicide isn’t an opinion, though. It’s an objective fact by all definitions of all the words.

          A fact not changed by whether or not some misguided Americans think or pretend to think that the atrocities of Hamas are justified or that the holocaust didn’t happen.

          • SCB@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            11 months ago

            Yes, it is indeed an opinion that committing atrocities is a bad thing to do. Well done on finally getting something right.

            You’re not dumb. You know that people disagree with you on the atrocities you claim.

            For instance, it’s impossible to have an apartheid system against another country. Israel is, by definition, not an apartheid state.

            It’s hilarious to me that you’ll try to bring up the definitions of words after that - perhaps this is why your opinion is so extreme.

            • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              10
              ·
              11 months ago

              You’re not dumb.

              Wow, you’ve already doubled the number of things you’ve been right about! At this rate we’ll only have to keep arguing a couple months more until you stop being an insincere moron!

              You know that people disagree with you on the atrocities you claim.

              I know that some people deny objective reality, yes, but that doesn’t make objective reality any less real or any more subjective.

              it’s impossible to have an apartheid system against another country.

              Palestinians, Muslims and Arabs living in Israel and Israel-occupied and/or -controlled Palestine are treated as, at best, second class citizens. Desmond Tutu agreed that Israel is an Apartheid state and he of all people should know.

              It’s hilarious to me that you’ll try to bring up the definitions of words after that

              I guess the truth sometimes looks like hilarious comedy to those who believe in ridiculous gaslighting such as that coming from Times of Israel, AIPAC and Faux News 🤷

              your opinion is so extreme.

              Yeah, it’s SO extreme to think that the lives of Palestinians matter! Such an audacious notion! 🙄

              • SCB@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                11 months ago

                Palestinians, Muslims and Arabs living in Israel and Israel-occupied and/or -controlled Palestine are treated as, at best, second class citizens

                You went to all the effort to cite Tutu and yet provide no evidence for this, because they’re not, and they literally have representation in Israel’s government.

                • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  9
                  ·
                  11 months ago

                  they literally have representation in Israel’s government.

                  Yeah, because everyone knows that having 1/12 of the knesset be Arabs means that there’s not systemic inequality and oppression of Arabs and other minority groups! 🤦

                  provide no evidence

                  here’s some evidence you’re gonna ignore or pretend to refute.

                  • SCB@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    3
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    11 months ago

                    Yeah, because everyone knows that having 1/12 of the knesset be Arabs means that there’s not systemic inequality and oppression of Arabs and other minority groups

                    It’s proportionate to their population.

                    About 6.8 million Jewish Israelis and 6.8 million Palestinians live today between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River, an area encompassing Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory

                    This article is about the Palestinian territory, a different country than Israel.

                    Lol they literally acknowledge it.

                    The intensity of that discrimination varies according to different rules established by the Israeli government in Israel, on the one hand, and different parts of the OPT,

            • zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              11 months ago

              For instance, it’s impossible to have an apartheid system against another country. Israel is, by definition, not an apartheid state.

              What other country has their roads, electricity, water, trade, and police controlled by another?

              Like there are words, and then there are facts on the ground. It walks and quacks like an apartheid.

              • SCB@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                11 months ago

                What other country has their roads, electricity, water, trade, and police controlled by another?

                What other country is blockaded by all of their neighbors (including Egypt and Lebanon, and even Jordan which is just nearby) for 30-60 years of terrorism?

                Like there are words, and then there are facts on the ground. It walks and quacks like an apartheid.

                If words don’t have any meaning to you, then your argument admittedly makes more sense. When you say “apartheid” you just mean “shit I don’t like.” It’s basically the “neoliberal” of Israel lol

        • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          11 months ago

          Nope, I’m not. Those comments mention things that have absolutely no bearing on the topic at hand but the one bringing them up tries to derail the discussion by insisting that they’re not only relevant but in fact crucial to the matter at hand.

          That’s textbook whataboutism.