“European customs and values” is a bit hard to define I feel. The eastern European states are quite different from the rest. Poland and Sweden are in stark contrast to one another, as is even Sweden and Germany.
I’d like to say that the EU is quite strongly in favour of democracies, which Turkey definitely isn’t. I’ve a dear friend who basically didn’t dare discuss politics because of the potential fallout that could have on his job and living situation. He’s since moved away from Turkey and his life has improved dramatically.
It’s difficult for me as a Swede to reconcile the fact that speaking out against the state could land me in hot water. Like I can call our PM a bag of dicks, and make poop-caricatures of any parliament member all day if I wanted to, and it wouldn’t necessarily have any fallout beyond burning some bridges with people.
Turkey’s also heavily religious conservative, and as a gay person that doesn’t sit well with me. That extends to all currently-in-the-EU countries that match that description as well, though.
I think you touched on the main aspects where things are different. Although, yes, there are many cultural differences across Europe as well (and I see that as a strength) they don’t run as deep. I would add my worry about their treatment of the Kurd minority. To be fair, however, things do change over the years, and there are a couple more countries that have turned for the worse, IMO.
Oh yeah, the treatment of the Kurds is harrowing. During the early days of Sweden’s bid for NATO, Turkey asked for a lot. They gave us lists of people to be extradited, and even made requests for our constitution to be changed to accommodate this. Basically extortion.
Needless to say, Turkey (and Hungary) hasn’t exactly garnered a lot of goodwill here in Sweden lately. A part of me is even a bit bummed out about the NATO thing, because the idea of allying with Turkey, and potentially having to deploy troops to defend them should it come to that, doesn’t sit well with me.
the idea of allying with Turkey, and potentially having to deploy troops to defend them should it come to that, doesn’t sit well with me.
That a good thing which comes from a larger coalition. The more countries involved that won’t attack each other, and the more counties that will aid other countries in the coalition if needed, the less likely there is a need to raise those defenses. I’m glad to see Finland and Sweden joining, not because of the troops and resources they might commit, but because it improves everyone’s self sovereignty, including those nations which aren’t full members.
Quite the shock when Erdogan tried to blackmail his country into the EU. I hope Sweden will also not give in when it comes to burning religious books.
I would say there is a huge difference in culture and values when comparing to those people from Turkey who are very conservative or religious. We even have some here who voted in Germany for Erdogan!
But the difference isn’t that big with secular, non-conservative people. It is like Turkey has two sides.
It’s not even about customs or abstract values in general. Some of the past and present aspirants or aspirants in spe seem to see only the economic side of things, while considering the legally binding parts of the treaty like the European Convention on Human Rights or the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union more like an optional thing.
European values are irrelevant for being a NATO member. But I believe being a democracy is a requirement, but USA is a somewhat flawed democracy too. But hen again no democracy is perfect.
Not NATO, the EU. Turkey is in NATO already, the other poster was probably mentioning EU because Erdogan has recently indicate he wanted to join before letting Sweden in NATO.
That doesn’t even make any sense. Erdogan has done nothing but backpedal on all the efforts Turkey had done before him to increase cooperation and become a member of EU. Erdogan clearly does NOT want Turkey to become a member of EU.
Also it’s completely unrealistic for Erdogan to wish to Join EU before Sweden becomes a member of NATO. In NATO all members want Sweden in, except Turkey and Hungary. In EU there are ZERO countries that want Turkey in the EU. So how would he realistically imagine it would be possible for Turkey to join EU before Sweden joins NATO.
Turkey is probably more at risk of being thrown out of NATO, unless they begin to moderate their behavior. Technically they don’t meet the requirements to be a member of NATO anymore.
Quite the shock when Erdogan tried to blackmail his country into the EU. I hope Sweden will also not give in when it comes to burning religious books.
I would say there is a huge difference in culture and values when comparing to those people from Turkey who are very conservative or religious. We even have some here who voted in Germany for Erdogan!
But the difference isn’t that big with secular, non-conservative people. It is like Turkey has two sides.
Isn’t abolishing the death penalty part of the requirements? And there’s some more that makes it simply unrealistic to think it’s happening in the next decade or two.
It’s like a 30 point check list and so far they’ve completed zero or maybe one. It’s a long way.
Erdogan reinstated the death penalty at the coup, so basically he has moved away from EU membership since taking control.
I think it’s a good thing that it is a long process, even if people moan about Ukraine not getting a shortcut. Imagine if Turkey had completed the membership before the coup. That would have been horrible today. Similarly it would be unwise to allow Ukraine in right now, since we have no idea of what will happen after the war. A dictator could potentially take the power there too. The requirements aren’t just bureaucracy, they do serve a purpose.
Personally I hope that they both succeed eventually, but it has to be done properly. Both Ukraine and Turkey could contribute positively to EU if only they manage to get proper democratic governments and follow human rights etc. first.
Everyone sort of figured he would once he won his rigged elections again. Gods I hope we don’t let him join the EU.
Huge democratic deficit and do they really follow European customs and values?
“European customs and values” is a bit hard to define I feel. The eastern European states are quite different from the rest. Poland and Sweden are in stark contrast to one another, as is even Sweden and Germany.
I’d like to say that the EU is quite strongly in favour of democracies, which Turkey definitely isn’t. I’ve a dear friend who basically didn’t dare discuss politics because of the potential fallout that could have on his job and living situation. He’s since moved away from Turkey and his life has improved dramatically.
It’s difficult for me as a Swede to reconcile the fact that speaking out against the state could land me in hot water. Like I can call our PM a bag of dicks, and make poop-caricatures of any parliament member all day if I wanted to, and it wouldn’t necessarily have any fallout beyond burning some bridges with people.
Turkey’s also heavily religious conservative, and as a gay person that doesn’t sit well with me. That extends to all currently-in-the-EU countries that match that description as well, though.
I think you touched on the main aspects where things are different. Although, yes, there are many cultural differences across Europe as well (and I see that as a strength) they don’t run as deep. I would add my worry about their treatment of the Kurd minority. To be fair, however, things do change over the years, and there are a couple more countries that have turned for the worse, IMO.
Oh yeah, the treatment of the Kurds is harrowing. During the early days of Sweden’s bid for NATO, Turkey asked for a lot. They gave us lists of people to be extradited, and even made requests for our constitution to be changed to accommodate this. Basically extortion.
Needless to say, Turkey (and Hungary) hasn’t exactly garnered a lot of goodwill here in Sweden lately. A part of me is even a bit bummed out about the NATO thing, because the idea of allying with Turkey, and potentially having to deploy troops to defend them should it come to that, doesn’t sit well with me.
That a good thing which comes from a larger coalition. The more countries involved that won’t attack each other, and the more counties that will aid other countries in the coalition if needed, the less likely there is a need to raise those defenses. I’m glad to see Finland and Sweden joining, not because of the troops and resources they might commit, but because it improves everyone’s self sovereignty, including those nations which aren’t full members.
Quite the shock when Erdogan tried to blackmail his country into the EU. I hope Sweden will also not give in when it comes to burning religious books.
I would say there is a huge difference in culture and values when comparing to those people from Turkey who are very conservative or religious. We even have some here who voted in Germany for Erdogan!
But the difference isn’t that big with secular, non-conservative people. It is like Turkey has two sides.
It’s not even about customs or abstract values in general. Some of the past and present aspirants or aspirants in spe seem to see only the economic side of things, while considering the legally binding parts of the treaty like the European Convention on Human Rights or the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union more like an optional thing.
European values are irrelevant for being a NATO member. But I believe being a democracy is a requirement, but USA is a somewhat flawed democracy too. But hen again no democracy is perfect.
Not NATO, the EU. Turkey is in NATO already, the other poster was probably mentioning EU because Erdogan has recently indicate he wanted to join before letting Sweden in NATO.
That doesn’t even make any sense. Erdogan has done nothing but backpedal on all the efforts Turkey had done before him to increase cooperation and become a member of EU. Erdogan clearly does NOT want Turkey to become a member of EU.
Also it’s completely unrealistic for Erdogan to wish to Join EU before Sweden becomes a member of NATO. In NATO all members want Sweden in, except Turkey and Hungary. In EU there are ZERO countries that want Turkey in the EU. So how would he realistically imagine it would be possible for Turkey to join EU before Sweden joins NATO.
Turkey is probably more at risk of being thrown out of NATO, unless they begin to moderate their behavior. Technically they don’t meet the requirements to be a member of NATO anymore.
Quite the shock when Erdogan tried to blackmail his country into the EU. I hope Sweden will also not give in when it comes to burning religious books.
I would say there is a huge difference in culture and values when comparing to those people from Turkey who are very conservative or religious. We even have some here who voted in Germany for Erdogan!
But the difference isn’t that big with secular, non-conservative people. It is like Turkey has two sides.
Isn’t abolishing the death penalty part of the requirements? And there’s some more that makes it simply unrealistic to think it’s happening in the next decade or two.
It’s like a 30 point check list and so far they’ve completed zero or maybe one. It’s a long way.
Erdogan reinstated the death penalty at the coup, so basically he has moved away from EU membership since taking control.
I think it’s a good thing that it is a long process, even if people moan about Ukraine not getting a shortcut. Imagine if Turkey had completed the membership before the coup. That would have been horrible today. Similarly it would be unwise to allow Ukraine in right now, since we have no idea of what will happen after the war. A dictator could potentially take the power there too. The requirements aren’t just bureaucracy, they do serve a purpose.
Personally I hope that they both succeed eventually, but it has to be done properly. Both Ukraine and Turkey could contribute positively to EU if only they manage to get proper democratic governments and follow human rights etc. first.
Also LGBT rights