I feel that the distinction is made wrong. All these labors shown may not require much of a formal education towards the job, but they all require skill that will be refined significantly over time.

• Somebody who works as a harvester for years is much faster at picking crops and much more efficient at seeing which are ready to harvest and which arent.
• Anybody who has kids knows that it takes years to traing them, how a properly cleaned house looks like.
• Cashiers who are familiar with the workings of the companys systems, who know the numbers of bread, produce and other non-barcoded goods by heart are much faster and have less situations requiring looking something up. This in particular are skills that simply require on the job time and experience. The same issue exists for engineering project managers who cannot learn all the PCA codes of their company in the first week.
• Everyone knows the difference between bar-staff that knows how to properly draw a beer and those who don’t.
• Fast food workers need to perform consistently in a high stress environment, and keeping taps on the fries, the burgers, three customers orders and dealing with the half-broken coffe machine is a skill many CEOs would lack. Same goes for waiters in restaurants
• Being a good brick-layer takes years of practice. A well built brick wall with consistent gaps and a smooth surface is difficult to achieve, and both aesthetically and structurally important.
• …

Finally many of these jobs also require social skills and provide socialisation as part of the experience. My favorite barkeeper manages not only to get everyone their drinks in a packed bar, but also chat with the regulars and newcomers while at it. People could just order take-away instead of going to a restaurant. But having a nice restaurant atmosphere is part of the experience and the result of good waiters and so on.

We accept experience as a relevant salary and position argument for “high skilled”, which should be called “high educated” labor. It is equally relevant in supposedly “low skilled” or “unskilled” labor.

There are some jobs that can be done with essentially no training or skills at all

I disagree with the use of the word “skills”. I think any job not involving any skills at all (carrying things from A to B for example) disappeared decades or centuries ago. Every job now requires at least some skills. I certainly could never do a lot of “unskilled” jobs. I don’t have the physical attributes for some of them, and I don’t have the personal skills for others. The real issue is that while some of these jobs do require skills, they’re skills that are common enough that the people with those jobs are easily replaceable. Someone who stands up for themselves can be fired and replaced easily and the replacement will only need on-the-job training.

Also, people who work in jobs that require only on-the-job training can become extremely skilled at them. But, unfortunately, that often doesn’t lead to them making any more money. They’re much less replaceable when they gain skills at those “unskilled” jobs, but it doesn’t often lead to them knowing that they have any real power. And, often they don’t. An employer will often be willing to fire a very skilled low-wage employee if the employee speaks up for themselves, rather than risk the other low-wage employees getting any uppity ideas.

As for “poverty wages”, that’s not really related to capitalism or to labeling something “unskilled”. It’s just power dynamics.

Peasants had “poverty wages” long before capitalism was a thing. They owed a lot of labour to whoever owned the land they worked on, and in many cases even if they were growing food, they were literally starving because they owed the food harvest to the land owner. If they didn’t deliver, they could be severely punished or even killed. But, if you were a skilled craftsman, you could escape from that trap. You may still not have had any real legal rights, but you were likely to get a pretty high wage. There’s a reason that one of the big secret societies is the Freemasons. Stone masons had power because they were not easily replaced.

Wages are about power, who had the power to demand more than just subsistence living. If you do a job that requires only on-the-job training, you’re probably pretty replaceable, so your bargaining power is limited. If your job is hard to replace, you’re better compensated.

The only power that “unskilled” workers have is that there tend to be a lot of them. If they joined unions, that union would have a lot of members so it would have some power. If they voted for political candidates that truly represented them, those candidates would have a lot of backers. Unfortunately, in recent decades, the uneducated low-skilled workers have been convinced to vote against their own interests. They vote for parties that scapegoat others, and then gut policies that would benefit low-wage, “low-skill” workers.

You have known a not-insignificant amount of tribalist assholes. They don’t mean things when they say words. The natural shape of the universe, in their eyes, is a hierarchy where the bottom half must suffer, and they’ll make whatever mouth noises justify that foregone conclusion.

If I gave you all the time in the world to pick a better label and you chose one we both agreed was flawless then those assholes would invent some other stupid reason to make the exact same claim. That’s how they think arguments work. That’s all they think we’re doing. That’s all they think there is.

This label can’t justify poverty wages, because nothing justifies poverty wages. And if you renamed it, the people trying would keep trying. You have to recognize these assholes and stop taking their arguments seriously. They’re not arguments. They’re slogans.

If it wasn’t ‘they’re unskilled!’ it’d be ‘those jobs are for teenagers!’ or ‘but hamburgers will cost thirty dollars!’ or ‘robots will do it instead!’ and if you try engaging with any of those then you’ve already lost. These people don’t fucking care. Prove them wrong and nothing changes. You have to attack the conclusion, because that’s all they have.

i also want to add that this ‘distinction’ — of who is easily replaceable — is only useful to certain classes that shouldn’t exist. it isn’t a term of what jobs can be easily replaced, it’s about what people can be easily replaced, and that’s unhelpful to the proletariat.

everywhere i’ve ever lived, ‘unskilled labour’ was used more as a slur than an economic term.

If you’re employing someone and losing money, that’s your stupid problem.

If you’re employing someone - they deserve a living wage. Or fuck off.

… which is usually a matter of hours, not several years of academic studies

See the difference ?

Want someone to sweep the floor ? You can quite literally grab some one off the street and tell them to do it, with some amount of success.

I didn’t claim it was justified?

It doesn’t cover that because it didn’t cover that. You don’t have to address the totality of a situation to comment on it. Lemmy is particularly bad at this concept.

A comment is a comment, not a through rebuttal

Then why is it justified to pay people poverty wages?

The actual problem isn’t that the wages are low, but that the standard for living is so expensive. That happens because of government decisions: zoning restrictions, bureacracy, high taxes to mention a few. These decisions always hurt the lowest income bracket the worst while benefitting the higher brackets. If we let markets flow naturally, things like this would be greatly improved.

Trying to fix all that with rising minimum wage is like trying to fix a dam you built out of straws with bubble gum.

Because it’s unskilled.

I could walk into McDonald’s tomorrow and in a day have nearly every thing I’ll ever need for the job.

Entry level means something different for every field. An entry level cook and an entry level engineer have two different sets of expectations for the employee.

Yes, talking about is, not ought.

Something that gets across that it is not an ‘in demand’ labour, which is the real reason it’s low paid.

Similarly, we see astonishingly low wages for ridiculously high skilled work, for example scientists.

Maybe it’s really all about unvalued labour. Or surplus labour, as you say. While having rare skills is no guarantee for being valued, lacking those surely doesn’t help in getting more value either. So I think there is a correlation between unskilled and low pay, even if it’s not a direct cause.

There’s tons of demand for unskilled labor. There’s also tons of supply because literally almost everyone can do it.

So make a meme about education should be free. There will always be unskilled labor. I can show someone how to use a lawn mower in 20 minutes, or screw caps on a tube in an assembly line.

I don’t need to pay someone extra to go to school for 4 years to do those jobs.

This is a pretty shortsighted comment.

Never, in the history of the world, has it been easier and cheaper (free in many cases) to learn a new skill. Have you heard of this thing called the internet where there are thousands of free courses teaching anything and everything?

I agree that would be unfair or however you want to judge it, but I don’t see how your conclusion follows.

It does not matter if the acquisition of qualification is gatekept, subsidized, free or restricted. Either way, you have a pool of people who are qualified for a job, and that pool has a size. Smaller pool roughly correlates with higher pay.

It’s supply and demand, regardless of why the pool has it’s size.

I also think it has never been that easy to learn things. Wikipedia, YouTube, social media … sharing skills, following your interests, learning whatever you’d like to learn … imagine you had to ask your dad for permission or be accepted into a guild for it.

Exactly. If all labor was valued equally, why would people bother becoming surgeons or air traffic control people? Those can be very high stress jobs and require specialized training to do properly. Higher wages are a huge part of why people choose those professions.

I agree about executive pay, but dismissing unequal pay is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The real problem is that for most of western history, unskilled labor was largely performed by slaves.

Funny thing is, you balance earnings and expenses for slaves vs modern workers, and the math vastly favors the slave. But that’s bad for other reasons.

You really can’t tell when someone’s using ChatGPT to shit out persuasive essays?

Having studied the history of work, this is one of those things that sounds super smart, but is actually half-baked nonsense. As hard and crappy as medieval life was, you still work twice as many days in a year as a medieval peasant did. It gets worse the more societies and ways of life you study.

So we should work hard because our ancestors worked hard?

LMAO only a commie would downvote this.

Nah, just a joke haha. I agree with the meme… Even in the case of us despicable managers.

I’ve done plenty of simple unskilled hard work. Blueberry raking, worked in the kitchen of a pub doing dishes, bussing, cooking; uhaul dispatching and fixing trucks. Although fixing trucks is certainly not unskilled.

So basically your position is that some people who have full time jobs deserve to live in abject poverty. Cool, thanks for the input lemmy.world lib.

Why are they always from lemmy.world?

Preposterous framing of a simple issue. People need money to survive. Jobs that need doing that don’t pay people enough to survive shouldn’t exist. Yes, healthcare should be free-ass.