All chemical reactions slow down in cold weather, including lead-acid cells. In extreme cold, everything is going to have issues. At least EVs have internal heaters that let you warm them up.
And unless you keep that EV plugged in and charging during frigid temperatures, that warming will cost you in usable mileage. And you might need a better charging system than a simple 110/120V circuit. Because that might not be enough to prevent some loss of charge.
The point is, there ain’t no free lunch here. Batteries, at the current tech, just tend to suck at low and high temps outside of their intended operating range.
Uhh, yes. You generally have it plugged in when it’s in the garage. And there are lots of programs for getting a 240V circuit to your garage by either manufacutuers or your local power utility.
What happens if you aren’t at home? How much extra planning is needed to check possible hotels along a long distance route to see if they offer overnight chargers? And knowing the lack of commercial charge points outside of metro areas, or even in metro areas that might not even be working when you get there, what do you do then? People don’t just never travel long distances. And traveling by plane, train, or bus is not always an option.
And yes, I know about the charging programs, I would love to buy an EV, but the sad hard facts are they will not work for me. Even a Hybrid is kind of iffy. And I will probably be well dead before they will be viable choices for where I live.
90% of what 90% of people do can be served fine with an EV with everything as it exists right now. In fact, I find it’s better. Maybe it can’t be your only car. Your personal issues with the technology for your case is no reason to hold back the rest of society.
So, you are fine doubling the cost of ownership for those people can’t use EVs all the time for everything? Nor did I say that my, and a noticeable number of other people, want to hold society back on EVs. Only that’s it NOT the clear cut solution for everyone 90% of the time. But you would seem to want to “force a square peg into the round hole solution”.
I try very hard to not need to make those types of trips. But I have often have a need to several times of the year whether I like it or not. But this fall I made two 1000 mile round trips to go pheasant hunting with my one Son in Law’s family and friends. It was a kind of bucket list thing. More often, I need to make 300 mile round trips to see a medical specialist every 3 months. And it’s below freezing here 6+ months a year where I live.
The nearest airport that I could fly from is an easy 50 miles away. But, transporting 2 dogs, a shotgun, cooler, and a 5 gallon buck of wild rice as gifts plus clothes wasn’t going to work. There is no bus or train service to be had either. And I’m pretty sure Hertz wouldn’t be real happy about dirty, wet, and muddy dogs being transported, (and yes, I own travel kennels), in their rentals nor would they be very impressed by the variety of grasses, weeds and mud hanging from the underside of the car either.
The point of the story is, lots of people make these kinds of trips to go camping and hiking, boating, fishing, skiing, hunting, or Christmas trips to Grandma’s house loaded with food and gifts. And the places they are going to are often pretty much barren of support for EVs. And renting a car to get there and back would be prohibitively expensive. And people do these types of travel regularly.
I hope more and more people switch to EVs. They DO make a lot of sense in a metropolitan area. Personally, I think electric bikes would even better for most urbaine urbanites. But not everyone lives in such places. And there is a noticeable number of people who can’t afford to buy an EV either - even if they wanted to.
I really, really wanted to buy a Chevy Bolt because I thought it would work for me. But, my one Daughter, (who has a PhD in engineering and is a research engineer doing long term studies on HVac systems and EV charging in real world installations), talked me out of it because of lack of infrastructure support. local conditions, the logistics, and total costs of ownership, (it still costs money to not use an asset also). Even buying a Hybrid really doesn’t make a lot of sense where I live since it would be simply running the ICE engine 95%+ of the time anyway. And again, the total cost of ownership is pretty break even at best. Sadly, it’s going to take decades longer to get EVs affordably usable for everyone. (That does NOT mean we should to stop all development and traveling that path).
TL:DR - There is a non-zero number of people for whom EVs just don’t work out, whether from lack of access to them, non-existent infrastructure, or lack of financial ability to even afford ownership or use case. And it seems a very large number of EV enthusiasts I have interacted with simply ignore those issues when making the flat statement “EVs good. ICE bad” and imply that “No one should ever need to own an ICE powered car”. Which is just as poor of logic as those who keep saying EVs are stupid and should go away. So go buy your EV if you can. Or at least buy an electric bike if you can’t. But for me, they just don’t work yet.
You shouldn’t replace a different type of battery with another. The vehicle will be set up with a different charging profile and you’d need to change that as well.
I think you missed the point. EVs also have a 12v, for the same basic reason of starting the vehicle. But the bigger factor is that EVs are often plugged in, which will automatically warm the battery.
It does, but that’s because the 12v starter battery was already present. The electric starter predates any electronics. This just made an easy and available source of power for anything else that came later.
There’s actually a movement to switch to a higher voltage, such as 48v, but there is a ton of inertia to overcome with that.
People seem to forget that gas cars have a battery in them too and that fails in cold weather.
Lead-acid batteries aren’t lithium ion? And the car starter battery isn’t equivalent to that of an EV?
You might as well say that I have trouble starting my gas weed wacker, therefore cars are hard to start.
All chemical reactions slow down in cold weather, including lead-acid cells. In extreme cold, everything is going to have issues. At least EVs have internal heaters that let you warm them up.
And unless you keep that EV plugged in and charging during frigid temperatures, that warming will cost you in usable mileage. And you might need a better charging system than a simple 110/120V circuit. Because that might not be enough to prevent some loss of charge.
The point is, there ain’t no free lunch here. Batteries, at the current tech, just tend to suck at low and high temps outside of their intended operating range.
I’d rather a vehicle that can actually move, but has a lower range vs one that wont start to move at all.
Uhh, yes. You generally have it plugged in when it’s in the garage. And there are lots of programs for getting a 240V circuit to your garage by either manufacutuers or your local power utility.
What happens if you aren’t at home? How much extra planning is needed to check possible hotels along a long distance route to see if they offer overnight chargers? And knowing the lack of commercial charge points outside of metro areas, or even in metro areas that might not even be working when you get there, what do you do then? People don’t just never travel long distances. And traveling by plane, train, or bus is not always an option.
And yes, I know about the charging programs, I would love to buy an EV, but the sad hard facts are they will not work for me. Even a Hybrid is kind of iffy. And I will probably be well dead before they will be viable choices for where I live.
"But sometimes . . . "
90% of what 90% of people do can be served fine with an EV with everything as it exists right now. In fact, I find it’s better. Maybe it can’t be your only car. Your personal issues with the technology for your case is no reason to hold back the rest of society.
So, you are fine doubling the cost of ownership for those people can’t use EVs all the time for everything? Nor did I say that my, and a noticeable number of other people, want to hold society back on EVs. Only that’s it NOT the clear cut solution for everyone 90% of the time. But you would seem to want to “force a square peg into the round hole solution”.
Thank god your day to day presumably isn’t filled with driving to hotels in the cold eh?
Realistically if this tiny pint actually matters you could probably just rent a car with all the money saved on gas
I try very hard to not need to make those types of trips. But I have often have a need to several times of the year whether I like it or not. But this fall I made two 1000 mile round trips to go pheasant hunting with my one Son in Law’s family and friends. It was a kind of bucket list thing. More often, I need to make 300 mile round trips to see a medical specialist every 3 months. And it’s below freezing here 6+ months a year where I live.
The nearest airport that I could fly from is an easy 50 miles away. But, transporting 2 dogs, a shotgun, cooler, and a 5 gallon buck of wild rice as gifts plus clothes wasn’t going to work. There is no bus or train service to be had either. And I’m pretty sure Hertz wouldn’t be real happy about dirty, wet, and muddy dogs being transported, (and yes, I own travel kennels), in their rentals nor would they be very impressed by the variety of grasses, weeds and mud hanging from the underside of the car either.
The point of the story is, lots of people make these kinds of trips to go camping and hiking, boating, fishing, skiing, hunting, or Christmas trips to Grandma’s house loaded with food and gifts. And the places they are going to are often pretty much barren of support for EVs. And renting a car to get there and back would be prohibitively expensive. And people do these types of travel regularly.
I hope more and more people switch to EVs. They DO make a lot of sense in a metropolitan area. Personally, I think electric bikes would even better for most urbaine urbanites. But not everyone lives in such places. And there is a noticeable number of people who can’t afford to buy an EV either - even if they wanted to.
I really, really wanted to buy a Chevy Bolt because I thought it would work for me. But, my one Daughter, (who has a PhD in engineering and is a research engineer doing long term studies on HVac systems and EV charging in real world installations), talked me out of it because of lack of infrastructure support. local conditions, the logistics, and total costs of ownership, (it still costs money to not use an asset also). Even buying a Hybrid really doesn’t make a lot of sense where I live since it would be simply running the ICE engine 95%+ of the time anyway. And again, the total cost of ownership is pretty break even at best. Sadly, it’s going to take decades longer to get EVs affordably usable for everyone. (That does NOT mean we should to stop all development and traveling that path).
TL:DR - There is a non-zero number of people for whom EVs just don’t work out, whether from lack of access to them, non-existent infrastructure, or lack of financial ability to even afford ownership or use case. And it seems a very large number of EV enthusiasts I have interacted with simply ignore those issues when making the flat statement “EVs good. ICE bad” and imply that “No one should ever need to own an ICE powered car”. Which is just as poor of logic as those who keep saying EVs are stupid and should go away. So go buy your EV if you can. Or at least buy an electric bike if you can’t. But for me, they just don’t work yet.
Oh, yeah.
If your point is that ICE car batteries have problems in the cold, so cold batteries is a problem for everyone and worse for ICE cars, that’s fair.
If your point is that ICE car batteries suck therefore EVs suck, that’s not really valid logic.
… battery heaters and block heaters are a thing for ICE too though?
How many cars have them? They come by default in EVs, and to use it, you’d plug it in like you do all the time.
You can buy a lithium car battery these days. Expensive as all get out, but you can get one.
You shouldn’t replace a different type of battery with another. The vehicle will be set up with a different charging profile and you’d need to change that as well.
And I’m not too certain what hardware is in cars but if its not setup to charge the li-ions just how they like, they tend to explode
I’m guessing the batteries advertised as drop-in replacements have BMSs built in.
Yeah, that’s a fantastic way to start a fire. Lithium really doesn’t like being treated like lead acid…
I’ve been told there are addon charge controllers available for such situations. But as I said, it’s stupidly expensive.
There’s a 12volt battery in every EV for starting and accessories like heat and a/C.
I can pull my 12V out and bring it inside to warm up though
I think you missed the point. EVs also have a 12v, for the same basic reason of starting the vehicle. But the bigger factor is that EVs are often plugged in, which will automatically warm the battery.
I was under the impression that the 12v also runs all the standard car electronics
That is correct, and EV’s are equally dependant on the 12V battery as ICE vehicles
It does, but that’s because the 12v starter battery was already present. The electric starter predates any electronics. This just made an easy and available source of power for anything else that came later.
There’s actually a movement to switch to a higher voltage, such as 48v, but there is a ton of inertia to overcome with that.