it’s depressing seeing supposed communists supporting the incompetent and corrupt capitalist demsoc governments of the world like the one in my country
I’m from Nicaragua (hey neighbor!) and yes, I hate how much the online left loves and defends the “socialist” governments that govern our countries. I try to think it comes from a lack of knowledge, but a lot of the time it’s them calling you a “useful idiot” just for daring to ask for a socialist party that doesn’t criminalize abortion (after it had been legal for almost a hundred years!) just to ingratiate themselves with the Catholic church. The FSLN has made pacts with far-right parties, made concessions to Canadian companies so they can mine gold (and destroy our forests in the process), has had a great relationship with the old and new bourgeoisie, has implemented every IMF recommendation to continue the neoliberal policies of their predecessors, but Ortega makes his yearly speech calling the US an imperialist shithole, and that’s enough for them to support him.
Im not educated on Ortega but it should be noted that MLs living in the imperial core offer critical support to worse things than that (Iran) in order to do revolutionary defeatism and hurt imperial hegenomy
Doesnt mean we dont think comminusts living in Nicaragua shouldnt oppose him, they should.
But if hes following what the IMF is telling him it doesnt sound like hes doing all that much to oppose the west.
not knowing spanish definitely plays a large part but I think more importantly they don’t have to be bothered to live in and experience these places so they’re perfectly fine remaining some idealized mental construct. its easy for them to imagine third world countries being full of rabid america haters and the politicians there being diametrically opposed to all cooperation with america rather than imagine that they’re the same kind of self-interested assholes you find across the world. if ortega nationalizes some gas station chain its because he hates the west not because he wants to make himself and his family richer. any action can be construed as “socialistic” if you view it through this anti-america lens
The idea that nationalization is about self enrichment is definitly unusual to me. Regardless of Ortegas motives it seems clearly better for the people of a country to have the resources belong to, yaknow, the country. Actual socialist countries nationalize resources too. Is nationalization really bad to you?
its not being owned by the country its being owned by a corrupt bourgeois family. honestly how naive must you be to trust these people while they pander to anti-americans. Ortega is probably the richest person in nicaragua its hard to say with howmany assets he has hidden but he is probably richer than Pellas
I have no idea what to think about Ortega but if thats true its not even “nationalized”. If one family is taking the profits then how can you even call that nationalization?
What benefit do they get by “pandering to antiamericans” tho lol. Western MLs are a very small group of people we cannot provide material support.
well my country is currently ran by the wife of a former president in a sort of bill clinton- hillary clinton political dynasty situation. her supporters are basically pampered college grad white collar people, amerisceptic national bourgeois, anti-corruption people, college progressives, and I guess now anti-crime hardliners. notably she has stopped paying large amounts of people in the public sector and I don’t want to say hires scabs against all the people protesting this because they’re not paid either they just want the possibility of being paid in the future
Well without even touching any of that you gotta remember can strongly support a politician’s geopolitical moves without even having formed an opinion on how capable they are at home, that’s how I feel. I was expecting Brazil, I have some criticism of Lula loaded up now darn.
communism is internationalist. it’s about supporting the proletarians of the world not supporting some in some countries and supporting capitalists in others. this is the basic amount of solidarity to be expected from comrades
the united states arrested our former president letting the democratic socialist take power lmao. you’re naive if you think demsocs actually oppose this “hegemony of the imperial core” whatever that would look like in practice
Hondorus sounds like an usual situation. Everywhere else in Latam demsocs like Evo get opposition because they take resources away from the imperial core by nationalizing them.
the resources are taken away from the individual owners ownership wise which sucks for those individual capitalists but aren’t taken away from the world market. the commodity relationship remains intact making it not against the west
You’re seeing the opinions of the western left, and in our countries our movements have only just been rebounding after decades of very harsh repression and propaganda, so it’ll take more time, struggle, and political development for people to see the difference between social democracy and revolutionary society. It is unfortunate, but for now, many will be captivated by the former.
yours is not the only one captivated. mine and many across latin america are so captivated we actually elect these people to power lol. it’s fine anyway since I selfishly want the government in iran to remain in power long enough to kill israel you can selfishly want the anti-american governments to stay in power to oppose your country. also honduras is a western country too lmao
you can selfishly want the anti-american governments to stay in power to oppose your country. also honduras is a western country too lmao
Yes this is exactly the point being made here. Its not even selfish. Its just how Lenininst antiimperalism works. Wanting American hegenomy to be hurt as an American is actually the opposite of selfish?
Also for the last line, yes its in the western hemisphere but its not part of the imperial core. Which is why we carefully use that language instead. The tem “western” is fairly useless for this reason.
you need to reread lenin he never said anything about “imperial core” that’s just stuff made up by wallerstein called world-systems theory and is neither leninist or marxist
see I’m gonna trust lenin and marx over a yale and colombia professor who only has ties to the british. zero ML countries adhere to world-systems theory and for good reasons
I agree with you as a Guatemalan. I’ve always considered our countries part of the West and think it’s a little patronizing how richer Western nations don’t consider us Western. The diaspora like to push this idea that we’re majority indigenous and that indigenous cultures are more prevalent than they actually are.
We’re kind of like the Balkans. They go on and off as to whether or not we’re included as Western or not.
I’m palestinian honduran so I wouldn’t even bother trying to argue with the few people I’d run into that seriously consider race what makes someone western. I still don’t see why it matters so much to american leftists tho. is bashing on the west too awkward for them if you include poorer countries in the americas and balkans? I don’t get the point in bashing anyway I’m not gonna feel guilty for being born in the west
No, I think Latin America has more in common with itself. Tons of countries in Asia and Africa (basically every country) has significant and sometimes complete fluency in a European language, and are Christian, but not considered Western.
Not to mention that many Latin American countries and subregions have huge cultural influences from regional Native American cultures and enslaved Africans
Latin America has never received economic benefits from the Western umbrella in the way that the EU states have. And they probably never will, and their racial origin is the most major reason for this. They are not Western.
Latin America has been westernized by continuous economical, cultural, and imperialist influence by the United States (and other global north countries), it doesn’t make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it’s inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life. Our religions have been westernized, our mode of production is capitalism, our cultural references are western cultural products, our music is dependent on western notions of what is “good” music. The products that we buy and we sell, that we most value are influenced by westernized perceptions of value.
Yes, there are bubbles, territories, regions, where this is not true, maybe even glimpses in everyday life, but it’s not the case for the vast majority of people living in Latin America. We may not be part of the west in a historical sense, but we are westernized countries living in the world that the West has created for us with violence.
Latin America has been westernized by continuous economical, cultural, and imperialist influence by the United States (and other global north countries), it doesn’t make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it’s inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life.
I’m going to paste what I said in another comment replying to another user just because it mostly applies here too.
Look, neither you or I get to define what “the West” means. It is a racist concept, but that’s the unfortunate reality of the situation. “The West” is not defined by who thinks they should belong to it, it’s defined by the material reality of exploitation. It’s nearly synonymous with “Imperial Core.” If you’re in the periphery, you are not part of “The West” no matter how much your society mirrors so-called western culture. Just as a regular worker is not part of the bourgeoisie no matter how much they want to be. There are the exploiters and the exploited. Latam, on the global stage, is exploited by the imperial core and there is no escaping that fact. The exploiters will never see it as part of their club because they’re exploiting it! It’s not like we (hexbears or leftists in general) see this as a good thing or want to perpetuate it. We want to tear it the fuck down. But we can’t deny material reality, and it seems like that’s what you’re trying to do by insisting that Latam is western and getting mad at us for the fact that it’s largely racism that determines who belongs to the in-group “Western” and who doesn’t.
We may not be part of the west in a historical sense, but we are westernized countries living in the world that the West has created for us with violence.
Absolutely. So you do see it is “The West” that unfortunately gets to define who belongs in the club, and it does so via violence. The West has violently created the world you live in, but that does not make the world you live in part of it, no matter how many people around you mistakenly think it does.
it’s depressing seeing supposed communists supporting the incompetent and corrupt capitalist demsoc governments of the world like the one in my country
I’m from Nicaragua (hey neighbor!) and yes, I hate how much the online left loves and defends the “socialist” governments that govern our countries. I try to think it comes from a lack of knowledge, but a lot of the time it’s them calling you a “useful idiot” just for daring to ask for a socialist party that doesn’t criminalize abortion (after it had been legal for almost a hundred years!) just to ingratiate themselves with the Catholic church. The FSLN has made pacts with far-right parties, made concessions to Canadian companies so they can mine gold (and destroy our forests in the process), has had a great relationship with the old and new bourgeoisie, has implemented every IMF recommendation to continue the neoliberal policies of their predecessors, but Ortega makes his yearly speech calling the US an imperialist shithole, and that’s enough for them to support him.
Im not educated on Ortega but it should be noted that MLs living in the imperial core offer critical support to worse things than that (Iran) in order to do revolutionary defeatism and hurt imperial hegenomy Doesnt mean we dont think comminusts living in Nicaragua shouldnt oppose him, they should.
But if hes following what the IMF is telling him it doesnt sound like hes doing all that much to oppose the west.
not knowing spanish definitely plays a large part but I think more importantly they don’t have to be bothered to live in and experience these places so they’re perfectly fine remaining some idealized mental construct. its easy for them to imagine third world countries being full of rabid america haters and the politicians there being diametrically opposed to all cooperation with america rather than imagine that they’re the same kind of self-interested assholes you find across the world. if ortega nationalizes some gas station chain its because he hates the west not because he wants to make himself and his family richer. any action can be construed as “socialistic” if you view it through this anti-america lens
The idea that nationalization is about self enrichment is definitly unusual to me. Regardless of Ortegas motives it seems clearly better for the people of a country to have the resources belong to, yaknow, the country. Actual socialist countries nationalize resources too. Is nationalization really bad to you?
its not being owned by the country its being owned by a corrupt bourgeois family. honestly how naive must you be to trust these people while they pander to anti-americans. Ortega is probably the richest person in nicaragua its hard to say with howmany assets he has hidden but he is probably richer than Pellas
I have no idea what to think about Ortega but if thats true its not even “nationalized”. If one family is taking the profits then how can you even call that nationalization?
What benefit do they get by “pandering to antiamericans” tho lol. Western MLs are a very small group of people we cannot provide material support.
Well I’m making you the epistemological black hole through which I perceive your country, congratulations.
well my country is currently ran by the wife of a former president in a sort of bill clinton- hillary clinton political dynasty situation. her supporters are basically pampered college grad white collar people, amerisceptic national bourgeois, anti-corruption people, college progressives, and I guess now anti-crime hardliners. notably she has stopped paying large amounts of people in the public sector and I don’t want to say hires scabs against all the people protesting this because they’re not paid either they just want the possibility of being paid in the future
Well without even touching any of that you gotta remember can strongly support a politician’s geopolitical moves without even having formed an opinion on how capable they are at home, that’s how I feel. I was expecting Brazil, I have some criticism of Lula loaded up now darn.
communism is internationalist. it’s about supporting the proletarians of the world not supporting some in some countries and supporting capitalists in others. this is the basic amount of solidarity to be expected from comrades
Which is exactly why we critically support things that work against the hegenomy of the imperial core?
the united states arrested our former president letting the democratic socialist take power lmao. you’re naive if you think demsocs actually oppose this “hegemony of the imperial core” whatever that would look like in practice
Hondorus sounds like an usual situation. Everywhere else in Latam demsocs like Evo get opposition because they take resources away from the imperial core by nationalizing them.
the resources are taken away from the individual owners ownership wise which sucks for those individual capitalists but aren’t taken away from the world market. the commodity relationship remains intact making it not against the west
You’re seeing the opinions of the western left, and in our countries our movements have only just been rebounding after decades of very harsh repression and propaganda, so it’ll take more time, struggle, and political development for people to see the difference between social democracy and revolutionary society. It is unfortunate, but for now, many will be captivated by the former.
yours is not the only one captivated. mine and many across latin america are so captivated we actually elect these people to power lol. it’s fine anyway since I selfishly want the government in iran to remain in power long enough to kill israel you can selfishly want the anti-american governments to stay in power to oppose your country. also honduras is a western country too lmao
Yes this is exactly the point being made here. Its not even selfish. Its just how Lenininst antiimperalism works. Wanting American hegenomy to be hurt as an American is actually the opposite of selfish?
Also for the last line, yes its in the western hemisphere but its not part of the imperial core. Which is why we carefully use that language instead. The tem “western” is fairly useless for this reason.
lesser of the two evilism has NOTHING to do with Lenin keep his name out of your mouth before actually opening a book for once
Sorry im taking my lead here from every ML ive ever encountered’s opinion on geopolitics. If its ignorant i apologize.
Eta: honestly based on your post history i dont see you as someone i have to take particularly seriously lol
you need to reread lenin he never said anything about “imperial core” that’s just stuff made up by wallerstein called world-systems theory and is neither leninist or marxist
Because in their times there were still competing imperial powers. There wasnt unipolarity at the time.
see I’m gonna trust lenin and marx over a yale and colombia professor who only has ties to the british. zero ML countries adhere to world-systems theory and for good reasons
Cuba and the DPRK dont see the United States as an imperial hegemon?
I don’t think either call it hegemonism that’s a chinese thing and even then there’s a big leap going from hegemonism to imperial core
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it’s a majority protestant country that speaks spanish. you think it has more in common with east asia or muslim countries or something?
I agree with you as a Guatemalan. I’ve always considered our countries part of the West and think it’s a little patronizing how richer Western nations don’t consider us Western. The diaspora like to push this idea that we’re majority indigenous and that indigenous cultures are more prevalent than they actually are.
We’re kind of like the Balkans. They go on and off as to whether or not we’re included as Western or not.
I’m palestinian honduran so I wouldn’t even bother trying to argue with the few people I’d run into that seriously consider race what makes someone western. I still don’t see why it matters so much to american leftists tho. is bashing on the west too awkward for them if you include poorer countries in the americas and balkans? I don’t get the point in bashing anyway I’m not gonna feel guilty for being born in the west
No, I think Latin America has more in common with itself. Tons of countries in Asia and Africa (basically every country) has significant and sometimes complete fluency in a European language, and are Christian, but not considered Western.
Not to mention that many Latin American countries and subregions have huge cultural influences from regional Native American cultures and enslaved Africans
Latin America has never received economic benefits from the Western umbrella in the way that the EU states have. And they probably never will, and their racial origin is the most major reason for this. They are not Western.
Latin America has been westernized by continuous economical, cultural, and imperialist influence by the United States (and other global north countries), it doesn’t make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it’s inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life. Our religions have been westernized, our mode of production is capitalism, our cultural references are western cultural products, our music is dependent on western notions of what is “good” music. The products that we buy and we sell, that we most value are influenced by westernized perceptions of value.
Yes, there are bubbles, territories, regions, where this is not true, maybe even glimpses in everyday life, but it’s not the case for the vast majority of people living in Latin America. We may not be part of the west in a historical sense, but we are westernized countries living in the world that the West has created for us with violence.
I’m going to paste what I said in another comment replying to another user just because it mostly applies here too.
Look, neither you or I get to define what “the West” means. It is a racist concept, but that’s the unfortunate reality of the situation. “The West” is not defined by who thinks they should belong to it, it’s defined by the material reality of exploitation. It’s nearly synonymous with “Imperial Core.” If you’re in the periphery, you are not part of “The West” no matter how much your society mirrors so-called western culture. Just as a regular worker is not part of the bourgeoisie no matter how much they want to be. There are the exploiters and the exploited. Latam, on the global stage, is exploited by the imperial core and there is no escaping that fact. The exploiters will never see it as part of their club because they’re exploiting it! It’s not like we (hexbears or leftists in general) see this as a good thing or want to perpetuate it. We want to tear it the fuck down. But we can’t deny material reality, and it seems like that’s what you’re trying to do by insisting that Latam is western and getting mad at us for the fact that it’s largely racism that determines who belongs to the in-group “Western” and who doesn’t.
Absolutely. So you do see it is “The West” that unfortunately gets to define who belongs in the club, and it does so via violence. The West has violently created the world you live in, but that does not make the world you live in part of it, no matter how many people around you mistakenly think it does.