The worst part is your job thinking you can work infinite hours because you dont have a kid. Its a fucked up tax.
I have a sick (but not dying) sister with 3 kids. As far as work are concerned, I visit every fortnight to help out and rush up to see them every time there’s an emergency or they need childcare.
I haven’t seen the sister in four years and only see my nephews twice a year when they visit Grandma but work don’t need to know that
Lol nice
just lie and tell them you have a kid
double down, even, and tell them the kid has a debilitating chronic disease that you regularly need to take time off work to bring to appointments and provide support for.
now you have even more free time
I’ve heard that if you let the government know about your child, they even give you free money!
I don’t feel the need to defraud the government and our limited social welfare taxes. I’ll happily tell my employer white lies about family who don’t exist, but never the government.
Would be very hard to fake a child to the government…
Do you not have a contract on how many hours you sell to your job each week?
Lunatic Americans have an honor code, who works more hours-competition to maybe one day perhaps get a promotion…
No I’m pretty sure you’re getting us Americans confused with the Japanese work ethic.
Nope. Japanese go home at EXACTLY 5PM
At least Japanese work ethic means you die of exhaustion at 28 to become an OP isekai protagonist.
Then the promotion goes to some buddy of upper management that’s only been there two months anyway.
Americans outside of trades: “Contract”? What’s that? Is that like when my employer makes me sign papers saying I can’t sue them if I get hospitalized because of their negligence?
Protip: you don’t owe your employer an explanation for turning down overtime, for refusing to do unpaid work, for refusing to pick up extra shifts, or for not being able to participate in heroics or death marches.
True, they also don’t owe you an explanation when they fire you.
They do in civilized places
Even in “at will” states (at least Ohio) you can collect unemployment if they fire you for a bullshit reason.
ARBEITNEHMERSCHUTZ SAGT NEIN
This is so god damn true. I say that as someone in my mid thirties.
To remind everyone, you are allowed to get a vasectomy for whatever reason you want. No one is forcing you to have children you don’t want, can’t afford, etc. If you’re told no, find a different fucking doctor.
Also remember, children never fix a broken relationship.
Look at this guy, with his penis, assuming everyone has a penis as well. /s
Conservatives in the US are working very hard at forcing women to have children, especially when they can’t afford them.
“Oh, you’re so young, you’ll change your mind in the future.” -Doctors when women insist they want tubal ligation
What you need to do is find yourself a lawyer who surfs so you get tubular litigation.
Children are an STD.
source: I was an STD.
STDs are treatable. Did your parents treat you well?
I don’t even need that. I don’t gamble. One of my friend’s dad had a vasectomy. It didn’t spare him living.
Would you say he looks a lot like his dad? ;)
Eyyy!
I don’t actually know.
A vasectomy was the best present I bought myself.
Very much not true in many places of the world. Vasectomies can be very hard to get.
There’s also vasagel which will hopefully be available before long.
Been hearing about that for literally a decade at this point. I check in on it every once in a while, but it never seems to make much progress
when i was in elementary or early middle school like 20ish years ago, in sex ed they said there were some male contraceptives on the horizon.
Meh, it gets a bit unsettling and empty when you get into your 40s. At least it did for me. We had a kid (much) later in life and I’m glad we did. We had our DINK fun in our 30s, and I still long for those days sometimes. But having a kid is like filling a hole you didn’t realize you had. And there are moments of joy and bonding that are simply indescribable.
Anyway, to each their own.
to each their own
This is kinda my message to OP et al. You do you, you don’t have to try to shame people who choose something else.
Admittedly, there’s a “having kids” version of CompHet, like, people sometimes have kids because they feel like they have to, like they’re supposed to, not because they want to, and that’s dumb. But those people aren’t addressed by the message of the OP, nor are they provided insight into the reality of OP’s wisdom: you don’t have to if you don’t want to.
And some parents are fucking annoying. They think they’re more important than everyone else (even their own kids) because they chose to take on more responsibility. No DINK should ever have to give up their spot in line, or work longer hours, because of your smug self-righteousness. But – again – these people aren’t addressed by OP. (And, importantly, not all parents are like that.)
I have kids and I love having kids. I have no qualms with anyone who doesn’t have kids. I sometimes have qualms with people who do have kids. Fight the real enemy.
We’re in our 40’s. Wanted kids but couldn’t have them. It was hard, and sometimes still is, but we’re the cool aunt/uncle and we’re making the best of the extra freedom and money we have.
Not trying to poke a bruise, but depending on how important it is to you, where you live, and your financial situation, you likely still have options. At least in the US there are states that require insurance to cover IVF treatments.
I’m close with two couples who live in one of those states and took advantage of that recently.
One in their late 30s, IVF worked (~2 year process for them) and they’re out ~$3k all said and done.
With the second couple, the wife was 44 when they started working with a fertility clinic, husband in his mid 30s. Unfortunately they were unable to produce any viable embryos from the wife’s eggs, and the couple couldn’t emotionally handle another egg retrieval attempt.
They still have a kid though, born when the wofe was 45. Egg donors exist just like sperm donors. So they were able to use the IVF process with donor eggs and the husband’s sperm to get an embryo, and have that implanted. The wife was able to carry their child in her womb and be pregnant.
Egg donors are expensive, they say it was ~$30k. But they do have a few more viable embryos from that on ice, so they have the potential for multiple children out of it.
The clinic the second couple used also apparently had a successful IVF pregnancy with a 50 year old.
I know four couples that just needed some medication (I think it’s just hormone pills and shots). There’s also a similar amount I know who went the adoption route.
I’m most familiar with the second IVF couple’s journey, as they tend to be open people, they more often needed someone to just listen, and one of them is related to me. Their approach struck a chord with my wife and I, and effected our own discussions on having children: “Once you’ve decided to have a kid, if that is the most important part of it to you, sometimes you just need to just work your way down your options to find out how they’ll get here”.
If you’re comfortable in your decision, if you truly know that options aren’t available for you through talks with a doctor, if you tried and found that it was just too much emotionally… I mean no shade or judgement. I just know a surprising amount of people who have had fertility issues, and people don’t tend to talk about it, so there’s a good chunk of people out there simply unaware of the chances they might have.
Apologies for the ramble. This is very near and dear to me, just hope it helps someone.
Jesus fuck, $30k just to have a geriatric pregnancy with someone else’s kid? That seems fucking insane to me… Why not just adopt? There are so many kids who need a good home out there already.
In the US at least, it really depends on adopting infants vs. foster care. Most adopt infants, and there’s generally more prospective parents than infants. Foster care tends to be more challenging, so there’s less parents willing to adopt them.
Wow, thanks for your effort and empathy. We did in fact go through two rounds of IVF. No insurance, so we did it abroad. It was cheaper, but absolutely a major financial outlay for us.
Worse than the monetary cost was the emotional one. Miscarriages are fucking horrible under ‘normal’ circumstances, but are somehow worse when you’ve put extra faith in medical professionals and the clinical process meant to greatly increase your chances of having a baby.
After the first ordeal, I begged my wife not to go through it again. Ultimately I relented since she felt so strongly that she was going to make the trip herself. I couldn’t let her do it without support. I am not bullshitting you when I say I absolutely could not do it another time.
In case you or anyone else is wondering, we were never against adoption, but it is also a difficult and expensive process, and at the time we were afraid to apply for reasons I won’t get into.
it gets a bit unsettling and empty when you get into your 40s.
that’s a mid life crisis. I’m glad having a kid helped you through it. Also a better option than running away with a hooker, maybe.
Any siblings? Let them have kids and help out. I’ve got a niece and nephew and I love them to bits, but I’m still glad they are not mine. Anyways, being an uncle/aunt? Can recommend!
Super eco friendly and anti-consumerism too.
probably the only way you can reduce your “cArBoN FoOtPriNt” in any meaningful way :P
I mean, there is that bit of French tech they invented at about the same time wealth got redistributed …
do you mean the gravity assisted wealth redistributor?
single-bladed billionaire shortener?
pulley operated monarchy foreshortener?The poor-man’s football ball maker?
The basket dyer (only dark red atm)?
The “totally-just-for-chopping-onions-in-half,-nothing-sus machine”?
Ah yes, the oversized cigar cutter
It’s a wonderful life, not having children. Well, a less shitty one, anyway.
Life with a kid has been anything but shitty but ymmv
Maybe take your kid to the doctor if no shit has been involved so far.
I think the drive to have children is so illogical one might call it a mental illness. Why do you need a kid? “I dunno, it just made me feel better”. Why didn’t you adopt? “I dunno, just wanted my own”.
The adoption part really strikes a nerve with me, too. “My own,” is always how I’ve heard it and it’s so indicative of a purely self-centered reason for wanting children - it’s not about the children at all, it’s about the parent. But, that’s never what you’ll hear from a parent when they try to describe how selfless the ineffability of parental love is for their child: “I can’t explain it, you just have to be a parent to understand.” I don’t buy it, as there are countless unloved/unwanted children doomed to grow up in toxic or abusive environments, as well as many step-parents and adopted parents who clearly love their children as much as any biological parent.
I think of it as more of a fear of death and passing on your own genetics as of way of soothing that fear.
Totally devalues the kid as their own person though (common thing for parents to do).
Unfortunately, that’s exactly my observation too. Some people don’t seem to value life itself, but only if it suits them.
This is exactly it. The parenting hormones sooth the existential dread a little bit
If we could measure the essence of “this child was wanted and will be loved” I bet it would be significantly higher for adopted kids. On average, of course.
I think it’s a clear sign that it’s the selfish genes talking, puppeting your higher functions to make sure they survive. Not for any reason, but just because those are the genes most likely to continue reproducing.
It’s a bit egotistic, but I like to imagine I’ve sublimated the drive to reproduce, by helping out my friends and their kids when I can. Hehe stupid genes, you think these are your kids because the bonds of friendship getting crossed wires with direct kinship. Stupid-ass genes, you don’t even know your ride ends here.
Yeah it’s really egotistic, but it’s a fun little fiction.
“I can’t explain it, you just have to be a parent to understand.”
makes me wonder if they have tried a pet and wether or not that wasnt just exactly the same feeling
It’s the most basic survival instinct maybe? Jesus what a dumb fucking comment, holy shit.
I am always flabbergasted by people trying to argue that having kids is illogical, selfish, unnatural, etc. Like, the fuck you think we’ve been doing as a species for millions of years? What ya think every other living being on earth is doing?
People trying to reinvent the wheel and making something mundane unnecessarily complicated just annoy the shit out of me. No one is forcing anyone to have kids (at least in societies that don’t ban abortions). You don’t want them or don’t feel equipped to have them - no one cares. But yeah let’s make your own insecurities and traumas and whatever personal reasons you have into an ideology that promotes that creating new life is bad per se.
Having kids is neither good nor bad. It is not selfish or altruistic. It just is. There is no need in overly moralizing it.
Just because something is natural doesn’t make it rational.
The preservation of our own species is irrational, got it. Fuck off, edge lord. Please don’t ever get kids.
What a weird insult rofl
It’s like telling someone who doesn’t like drinking, “I hope you never have another beer!”
I’m guessing you’re in your early twenties and once you grow out of your edge lord phase, you might get the idea to procreate regardless of your bullshit opinions you have now. Unless you start over with school and take it seriously, you shouldn’t pass on your verbal diarrhea to children.
you might get the idea to procreate regardless of your bullshit opinions you have now.
Lol the arrogance. You just can’t fathom that other people think differently. You just assume anyone who doesn’t have the same weird subconscious drives as you is somehow defective. And when confronted with the illogical nature of what you believe, you get angry and defensive.
I think people don’t realize just how expensive and difficult adoption is. My ex wife and I looked into it when we were having fertility trouble. Turns out, five rounds of IVF would have been cheaper than adoption. People got used to the idea that adoption is cheap in the 80s and 90s when China, Korea, and a lot of the Eastern European states had an excess of unwanted babies. That is no longer the case and babies are very hard to come by.
So if babies are hard to come by, are the older orphans hard to come by as well? Or is it just that baby adoption is the preference?
Yeah that’s what makes it so expensive. If you’re willing to adopt an older kid it’s still pricey but not the same.
Not sure I understand. So expensive because babies are more preferred? Or are babies not that much preferred and there’s not actually that many kids in foster care/orphaned?
Like, how expensive? Isn’t delivering a baby in a hospital like 10k? Is it really more difficult and expensive than 9 months of pregnancy?
Most aren’t babies, though, and lots have been through a lot. Having a baby is already a huge commitment; you can’t fault people for not wanting to take on a kid with a history of trauma or a significant disability. That’s a tall order and the people who do it are saints.
If you have insurance, it’s often not that expensive to actually have a baby. IVF is expensive though, and only sometimes covered by insurance. We were looking at $25k for one round of IVF and $5k for each subsequent round, if those were necessary. Adoption was around $50k from what I remember.
Some states require IVF coverage by medical insurance. With those prices, it may actually be cheaper in certain circumstances to move.
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It’s not just financial. It’s the longterm commitment to care for another creature. Best example is the animal adoptions during lockdown. So many of those pets ended right back in shelters because people realized they liked the idea of a pet, not the actuality. That’s a big part of the reason the barrier of entry is so high for adoption.
Still 65,000 kids waiting to be adopted in the US alone. On average.
Here’s the way I see it: we are social creatures, and our relationships define a lot about us and our lives. A parent’s relationship with a child is a very significant one, which can be very rewarding in the right circumstances. We all know the cliche about “if we have a baby it will fix this relationship” and similar.
The drive to reproduce seems like an evolutionary necessity. We wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for that. But that’s an instinct really, and not a rational thought-out thing.
Adoption is extremely important, but it is also the hard mode of becoming a parent. The only reason I even have a biological child is because my wife and I tried one more doctor after being a year or two into the crushing roller coaster of the adoption process, and even having a double adoption fall through.
As I write this, a neighbor’s child is bawling publicly outside my home.
Yeah, all parents seem to want to tell us how their life was meaningless before they had kids, but I’m good.
I’ve seen some of the most insanely inappropriate behavior from kids. Yes the fault is mainly the parents but the other day a child literally tried to take my milkshake because they could. It was awkward and if I’d been a couple steps further away I think the kid would’ve grabbed it out of the worker’s hand. The parent said nothing, probably because they spend all day every day saying no and it’s exhausting.
Is this supposed to be an argument against having children? Yes, kids sometimes misbehave. They’re tiny humans, believe it or not, and sometimes what they want and feel don’t align well with the world around them. It’s the parents job to teach them how to behave around other people, and some parents are fuckups and do not do that job well. But when parents do their job well, that is how amazing adults are made, you see. Even if the outcome can’t be guaranteed in any way.
If you don’t want to have children, that’s fine. I don’t particularly think you should either. But “a kid tried to steal my milkshake” is just a laughable argument.
“Kids misbehave constantly” is a pretty great reason to not want them especially when combined with like 10 more good reasons which I don’t need to list really. Do you really think that I made the decision based on a fuckin’ milkshake?? I’m sorry my example failed the test of “could a parent needlessly justifying their choices reject this”.
If you don’t want to have children, that’s fine. I don’t particularly think you should either.
Okay then why take this personally? I think it’s fair to take it personally that everywhere you look in society people are having kids and subtly shaming those who don’t. I see that allll the time (this thread included).
You’re in the majority by a lot. You don’t need to get mad at a dissenting opinion just because it doesn’t sound (to you) based on the right example/logic/whatever.
I think it’s fair to take it personally that everywhere you look in society people are having kids and subtly shaming those who don’t.
If you read this thread I’d argue there are more people shaming people for their choice of having children (as you appear to do) than otherwise. Basically everyone here who has a kid argues “to each their own” while half of the child free people argue “you’re a selfish idiot if you have kids”. One dude literally called children an STD. Another one calls it a mental illness.This isn’t even subtly shaming.
Yeah and you’re talking about probably less than 50% of 2% of the population. Just because you see the sentiment does it make it prominent. Shaming people for not having kids is so common you could have it happen to you and barely notice it because you’re so used to it.
I didn’t take it personally and I’m not mad. I don’t care if you don’t want kids but this is a public forum and your argument is absurd. The notion that “kids constantly misbehave” is clearly based on limited experience with kids and you seem to have no understanding of parenting, meaning you have a strong opinion on something you know very little about. Which is hardly uncommon, so don’t beat yourself up about it, but still should be remarked upon when encountered.
I think the reason why this subject is so touchy is that people who never have kids can never really know what it’s like, and it cannot really be explained to them either - all parents understand this to some degree. Some things you can only learn through experience.
This is exactly the condescending bullshit that we have to put up with. You are just trying to tell yourself your kids aren’t quite as bad as anyone looking in would think.
I do not need kids to have meaning in life, and those who do need them shouldn’t force that shit down our throats.
You are very clearly the angry one in this conversation. No one cares.
I agree with the other person. I’m glad you don’t have kids too.
Never said I wasn’t angry…you should try admitting it.
No one is as glad as I am that I don’t have kids though! That’s not the weird insult you seem to think it is
It’s a pretty common sentiment that you don’t “get” having kids until it happens. They seem perfectly willing to drop it after “to each their own” but you call it condescending? The reason your comments are all in the negative is because even the other childless people think you’re a prick.
It’s beside the point, but I feel I have to tell you that my kids are lactose intolerant and would let you have your milkshake to yourself. It’s my wife you have to keep an eye on there, she loves them.
My man, I’ve been of your opinions, and I have a kid now.
What the person you’re replying to is saying isn’t condescending. He’s not saying that he is more important or more intelligent than you. He’s not saying that he necessarily has a better life than you, or that your choice not to have kids makes you lesser.
The strongest thing he’s said is that you, as someone without a kid, cannot understand the full experience of having one. Same as how (assuming you aren’t a famous actor), will never know what it’s like to be a famous actor.
It’s simple fact. Not good, not bad.
People with kids will never know what it’s like to not have kids as you get older amd more established. I’ll never know what it’s like to have a foot long schlong.
Not every kid is a little shit, just like not every man is a misogynist. There’s also the aspect that the noisy and disturbing children are going to stick our far more than any who are behaving. You don’t remember every car that drives reasonably, or every public transportation rider that ensures they aren’t a nuisance, during your commute.
Please stop projecting your personal frustration with children on the rest of the world, then getting offended when not everyone agrees.
The only reason any of you randos know anything about my opinion is that you’re projecting your need to have children onto the world. “You would never understand until you have kids!” “They change your life and make you whole!” “When are you having kids??” We’re sick of hearing it.
Good for you that you like your choice, just let me have peace with mine, it was absolutely the right choice. Many parents regret their choice, you can tell when they’re angry all the time. Don’t encourage more of that, full stop.
The next time somebody asks why I don’t want kids I’m just going to say “Because I like milkshakes” with no context whatsoever. 😂
I wouldn’t attempt to persuade anybody to have children, but being a dad has been the best thing in my life bar none. I was that rare custodial single dad to a daughter and certain years of financial struggle aside, I wouldn’t trade the experience for all the wealth on the planet.
She’s grown now. Today it’s a friendship/mentor/advisor relationship in which we play the mentor/advisor role with each other. I give her guidance, and she does the same for me.
She has no plans to have children because she sees bringing a child into this shit stain of a timeline as a moral failure, and I’m fine with that.
She says she may adopt someday, and as the son of a mother who suffered the American foster care system, I can’t see that pursuit as anything other than noble.
But really. If you’re happy not having kids, I support that. I truly do.
I’ll conclude with this - she made me a better person, and for that, I’ll be eternally grateful.
Ah a former Redditor
There’s dozens of us 🎉
Especially since July 2023
[wipingTearsWithWadsOfMoney.gif]
The worst part of being a parent is other childrens’ parents. The kids themselves (mine at least) are great. Other people’s kids are feral though.
That’s what everybody says… lol.
The friends I invite more often actually supervise their kids instead of letting them make a mess. Parents everywhere, if people never invite you and your kids, take a clue.
Not my friends kids, my kids classmates. Child led “parenting”.
I raised my ex’s kid for a decade and parents groups are the WORST
The only reason you like your kids is the parenting hormones
Instinct not hormones, hormones areentirely different than instincts though linked. Instincts are BIOS while hormones are background processes.
I have friends who didn’t have kids and all of them either end up “adopting” friends who were young and needed a mentor or doing something more meaningful with their lives. One became a professor and is a mentor for kids and the other one became a local radio host that helps people through their emotions.
I honestly didn’t know what I was missing until I had my son. To each their own.
And that’s really the point, you don’t add meaning to your life because you have a kid. You add meaning to your life by helping others. Some people do that with their kids while my husband and I choose to do that with friends and family. I’m happy with being child free and I’m happy for those people who find meaning in raising their kids. It’s not an either/or situation.
I will preface by saying that having kids is hard, and today more than ever, it is not necessary to have kids.
But mentoring and bonding with someone else’s kid is not the same thing as having your own kid, by a mile. I’ve done both, and having your own kid is a unique feeling.
The nice thing though is that if you don’t have kids, you don’t know what it’s like. So you don’t miss anything because you’ve never had that feeling.
So when you hear people like me that it’s the best feeling in the world, you don’t have that experience. So for you, it’s not true.
I needed to read this, thank you!! Been healing from some related fallout with my birth family, and figuring out what that means for me and my life going forward. I now recognize the damage one can potentially do by finding their life’s meaning through their kids. Not only does it make the child emotionally responsible for the parent, it also leads to inevitable blowout when expectations aren’t met.
I have no desire to repeat that damage and can’t conceive anyway so kids no longer factor into my life. It’s opened a number of other wonderful and fulfilling opportunities, but the FOMO and fear of isolation when I get older definitely gets to me sometimes. I’m the youngest person I know by a lot… gonna need to fix that in the next 40 years or so or life’s going to get real depressing. I want to, in some small way, help build the world that comes after me, and rescinding parenthood means figuring out what the hell that even means now, and that’s terrifying. Maybe I’ll teach someday, or something.
People will come and go throughout your life and I completely understand that is a really scary concept for most folks. Blood family connections are mostly a given in life (whether you want them or not) but all other connections are something you have to consciously work at. You just have to keep an open mind and look for opportunities to form those connections with others. Maybe you’ll become a mentor for some else going through a similar life situation. Maybe you’ll get “adopted” by an elder who has love to give. And maybe you’ll become an auntie/uncle to nibblings (blood relatives or adopted). None of these roles will give you the real experience of parenthood and that’s ok because every role is valid and there is no guarantee in life that says we get to experience them all. You’ll find that the roles you come to fill and work on are the ones you really need in the end.
That’s so well said. I think a lot of people don’t even realize how much we need other people to be happy with ourselves, by ourselves. We need connection and some voluntary dependence to be able to see and understand ourselves. Having a kid is one way but it is not the only way to realize this or to achieve this. It is probably the most straightforward one that just “happens” to a lot of people passively. To find meaning in helping other people that are not your family one has to actively seek this out. And maybe there is even something about having to actively seek this versus having this happen to you.
Yeah totally, working and commuting to a job you can’t stand to have most of your income taken away by payments and loans. But at least you get to vacation to places that lie further away because you were able to save up more. Because long distance travelling will definitely fulfill every need and longing you have.
Now, back from the negative. To each their own. No one should have kids if they don’t want to. But a life without kids is also not just fun and cookies. In our society you are left with little time for yourself and your hobbies no matter whether you have kids or not. Most of us have no attachment to our jobs, we know they are bullshit jobs and salaries are compensating their lack of meaning. I can’t understand how people want to find fulfillment in their jobs, something to live for and to draw value for your life from. A minority does have important jobs that can give you a sense of meaning (I imagine nurses, social workers, teachers) but these are usually so underpaid and have such horrible working conditions that it circles back to how can you live for that. You’re replaceable. No one will thank you for your service down the line.
You can find joy in hobbies or travelling. But is this what makes your life meaningful? Does that glass of red wine in the evening and good food give your life purpose? On the other hand, do you even need a purpose? Maybe a hedonistic approach of taking just some simple pleasures from your existence is enough, but man I hope realisation won’t hit when you’re older that you have not tried anything of significance.
But all of that being said, this is not a reason to have kids. Kids are just a very straightforward way to add purpose, meaning, and fulfillment to your life. It is hard and exhausting and makes you angry and frustrated all the time, but this is also what makes life worth living. No one really wants to live wrapped in cotton candy. People who cannot or choose to not have kids can find fulfillment in other aspects of their life. But I’d argue that a sense of being a person close to other people, a social being with commitment and responsibility for someone else, is almost always necessary.
Kids are just a very straightforward way to add purpose, meaning, and fulfillment to your life
I'm bored and can't find meaning in my life. I'm going to procreate and make it somebody else's problemWell, I don’t love how you phrased it, but I’ll take it just so I can ask: and what’s wrong with that?
Selfish act
All the bad things you mentioned are worse with kids.
In what way?
Let’s go line by line
working and commuting to a job you can’t stand to have most of your income taken away by payments and loans.
Still have to do that with kids, except your expenses are higher and you have even less free time.
In our society you are left with little time for yourself and your hobbies no matter whether you have kids or not.
Again, with kids what little free time you might have is eaten up by them.
Most of us have no attachment to our jobs, we know they are bullshit jobs
You’re more stuck in a job when you have kids. Family insurance, greater risk of jumping to a new job, less ability to change location.
You’re replaceable. No one will thank you for your service down the line.
Even worse when that sentiment is coming from your own children rather than your boss.
I wonder where the sentiment that free time in itself is worth so much comes from. And why is time spent with kids automatically unfree? Me time, self care, yes sure, but I would not put free time, as in time I can do something by myself, above time I spend with people I love. Is a weekend spent outside with your family on a playground with coffee in thermo cups somehow not free time? What would you want to do instead? If I end up with too much time on my hands that I don’t put in somewhere that makes sense, is it really better than putting it into raising children? You can put it into working for charity or into doing another round of cocktails at a bar. You can do something for your community, work on a master plan to overthrow the capitalist system, or you can do yet another round of meditative yoga. The question is what you will look back on later with no regrets. (You can also absolutely regret having had kids.)
Most of us will have shit jobs no matter what. You’re right that the stakes are higher with kids involved. Is this necessarily bad? At least you have some more reason to keep working and not try to improve the unimprovable.
And yes, your kids might eventually resent you. This sucks. But they don’t owe you and you don’t own them. You try your best, you fuck it up, you are overloaded, it’s never enough, you learn, you regret, you cherish, you love. If you’re lucky, you will have helped in the creation of a happy and independent adult, whilst having gained valuable experiences and created unique memories. That’s the best you can hope for. But don’t have kids if you expect anything. Don’t have kids for a reason.
I just want to emphasize that I am not advocating for having children. If you don’t want kids, don’t have them. Not everyone can have kids either. The question is what you make matter in your life. If you manage to find a purpose, meaning, fulfillment, connection, commitment, call it whatever you want, outside of a family - that’s amazing and absolutely something to strive for. What I dislike is the sentiment (conveyed in this meme) that more money and more free time automatically is somehow worth more or make for a better life. In themselves, these things are worth nothing. It is what you make of it. Free time can be a killer (ask lonely retirees), and money does not necessarily make you happier (if you don’t have financial worries). As with money, I also ask myself where people put their money. Is putting money into stuff, hobbies, travelling, really so much better than putting it towards people they love?
And putting your career first is - just in my opinion - a dangerous gamble, if this is what you decide is to give your life meaning.
There are shit parents and there are shit childfree people. There are fulfilled parents and fulfilled childfree (or childless) people. Whatever scratches your itches.
What I dislike is the sentiment (conveyed in this meme) that more money and more free time automatically is somehow worth more or make for a better life. In themselves, these things are worth nothing.
Only someone who has plenty of time and money could make such a silly statement. For most of us, these are precious resources.
This is so well said. I was a dumbass until my son was born. Then everything in life was meaningless and my son became my sole purpose in life. My job became meaningless. My friends became meaningless. Everything was focused on being the best father I can be. What was interesting is that when I started getting less of a fuck at work, I started getting promoted and getting paid more. I had more confidence during interviews because I didn’t give a fuck about them.
Anyways to each their own, but I want to thank you for replying.
This just seems sad to me personally
Thanks man. It’s insane how having a kid can change your perspective or focus. Like, yesterday I’ve been watching a crying two year old trying to figure out how to put on socks for 15 minutes and it was legit a beautiful and intense experience. I didn’t expect I would ever say that about watching someone failing to put on socks. (Today it worked for the first time!)
And somehow not giving a fuck in other parts of life where you used to give a fuck is so crass. I’m one of those people who cannot make a phone call to make a dentist appointment. But if it’s about my kid? Hand me the phone. I also am too tired now to give a crap about tiptoeing around issues or keeping my mouth shut when something is legitimately wrong.
As for work, I doubt I’ll go back to what I’ve been doing before. I’ll gladly take a pay cut but if I’m giving my child away to go to work I’m not going to do this for some bullshit job with no meaning.
I’m in a DINK couple (just to be clear) and one thing people often don’t speak about is the negative aspect of that choice when we get older. You might do whatever you want while you’re young, odds are that if you need care when you’re old, your only source of help will be professional, not personal.
Let’s not pretend nothing positive comes from having kids, especially not on a platform where people keep complaining about being lonely.
Heck, go volunteer in a long term care facility and tell me there no difference between the amount of care that people with and without a family receive.
Relying on kids for care is like breeding servants.
Let them live life by their choices. They owe you nothing.
Exactly, I’m not here to take care of my parents lol
So your parents call you and say “I fell down the stairs and I’ve got a hard time walking…” and your reaction is “Ok, good luck at the hospital!”
I know it sounds awful, but yes. It’s really all I can do thousands of miles away.
Ok so you’re a specific edge case and the fact that you wouldn’t help them is related to your geographical situations. In most families living the same thing you do, just being able to talk to each other is a form of support that people without kids don’t have when they get older.
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Holy crap you guys…
It’s just something that naturally happens with most families and I never said it’s the reason why people have kids, I said it’s one advantage about having kids vs not having them. In the majority of cases it’s not an obligation people feel and I’m sorry if you had to have it imposed on you, but you can’t use your anecdote to make a general opinion.
I remind them where their gun is and tell them we don’t call 911 here 🤠
“I left the Glock on the first floor just for this reason. Do the noble thing and don’t burden the tribe with your frailty”
I’m not saying you force them to help, I’m saying it naturally happens in most families and I’m sorry if you wouldn’t be there for your parents when they’re old, it must mean you have a bad relationship with them.
In one case you only have one resource that can help you in case of need, in the other there’s two.
This isn’t fair. If you invest properly in your children, they become your friend as they age (from the perspective of a son who became friends with his parents)
Or you could also have a kid, and they may end up being special needs, which, depending upon how bad, also can’t help you. Or you have a kid, and they end up being terrible to the point that your relationship fails when they get older and never want to see you again once they leave.
Having a kid doesn’t necessarily mean you’re guaranteed anything either. At least in your situation, you have the ability to plan ahead starting early as well as the extra income to throw at whatever solution you find.
Sure, in the majority of cases that’s not what happens though, most families care for each other.
My family has been caring for my bipolar brother on and off for over 20 years since we discovered his mental illness around the age of 18. I wouldn’t say it destroyed our family, but it’s put us all through an extremely stressful existence–and it’s not something we can ever expect a permanent solution for. The toll it’s had on my parents is staggering. They’ve been depressed pretty much since he flew off the handle and it’s never really gotten back to ‘normal’ since.
So yeah, having a kid isn’t a guarantee of a happy or purposeful life either. Guess we’re just in the ‘minority of cases’?
I refuse to bring children into this world for numerous reasons–and that right there is a big one. I don’t know if it’s genetic, but I’m not taking the risk of bringing another bipolar person to suffer in this world.
Guess we're just in the 'minority of cases'?Eh… Yes, as a matter of fact you guys are? Don’t know why I need to debate the principle of anecdotal evidences in this discussion 🤔
You could also talk to experts to determine if there’s increased risks or not in your specific case. My mother has 6 siblings, one of them had one kid who’s schizophrenic, that’s one out of 15 kids between my mother and her siblings, nothing hereditary about it (not on our side anyway), shit just happens sometimes.
I’ve met plenty of others that have seen mental illness wreak havoc on their families. Sure my experience is anecdotal but wtf else can i draw experience from? Make all my decisions based on probabilities and just hope for the best? Congrats on having a bunch of normal functioning family, sounds nice 😊
wtf else can i draw experience fromGuess you never had stats explained to you?
My first message was general. It doesn’t apply to your case? Fair enough, you’re in a minority. It doesn’t make me wrong and it’s not an attack against you and you can push the reflection a bit further and tell yourself “Although it’s not the case with me, most people are close to others in their family so I guess in most cases it’s a form of support when aging that people don’t get if they don’t have kids.”
But then you don’t get any crappy gifts on Father’s Day 🤷♂️
Says who? You can afford to get yourself a nice lego set every holiday, you ain’t got no crotch fruit taking all your moneys
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I assure you I can take care of myself when I am 85. That’s what the gun is for.
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