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article doesnt present any pressure they are facing. also
Drug production costs are often shrouded in secrecy with little clarity on how they relate to prices, if at all.
Prices are never about cost, its what people are willing to pay. Which gets brutally exploited by pharmaceutical industry.
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To be fair, drug development is pretty expensive. A lot of the budgets for it are public-because it happens at public institutions.
Literally almost every drug in existance.
Then after the parent rubs out, they make a slightly different version and repatent it.
Insulin: new formula now 0.0005% more effective for only 9000% increase in profit!
Whoo boy that typo had me going at first lol
That typo is hilarious enough that I must leave it. 😁
We thank you for your service.
Every neighborhood should have community drug labs (not just the sheriff’s meth lab like we have now) and every pharma researcher should be spilling their guts or spilling their guts.
I dunno, Sheriff’s meth lab can help with the adderral shortage.
both stimulants also suppress appetite
I’m not saying we can’t re-use the hardware, maybe even the staff, but are you honestly proposing anything involving the police would ever be allowed to be used for good?
You are right, they would find some way to make it bad.
obviously
anybody who believes pharma costs are justified by materials is… well, let’s just call them uninformed. It’s not justified by R&D costs or production issues. It’s justified by the stock market, by the CEO having a race with other pharma CEOs for the biggest bonus, and by no other thing.
I work in med device, close to pharma, but a bit different. There is a lot of overhead. Beyond all the validations required for startup of each line, there is quite a lot of Sustaining work.
I’m not trying to defend this price, or the gouging that pharma does regularly. But I don’t think the $5 price includes all the overhead of the QMS.
It’s like taking the price of the ingredients for a pizza and saying it’s what it should cost.
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It’s really cheap to make a book but that doesn’t stop publishers from selling them at a large markup. This is a pretty basic supply/demand scenario. The pharma company doesn’t owe anyone anything. They exist to make money. The best way to lower the cost is for a competing product to enter the market.
Well if the materials to make a pizza was 5 dollars and it was being sold at 1,000 dollars, saying “oh thats just necessary overhead” would lead me to wonder why the hell that level of inefficiency was tolerated.
why the hell that level of inefficiency was tolerated.
Patents, e.g. legal monopolies.
Maybe fines and penalties for undercutting someone who holds a patent should be scrapped for nonprofit manufacturers of generics.
Maybe profit should come second to the betterment of humanity.
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Because each new type of pizza is made of brand-new ingredients, not just standard wheat flour, tomatoes, cheese, spices, etc. And they’re baked anew and taste-tested to make sure they’re not disgusting, or worse, have toxic effects.
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Im not in charge of the checkbook, but I do place purchase requests. I also am in charge of reducing direct labor and know what our overhead numbers are. We are a small company though. It should be possible to reduce overhead in larger companies due to economies of scale, however, it is not always the case as the bureaucracies required to interface with the FDA are not trivial.
I was involved with a product transfer for a large company one time. Due to the small volume of the product and the complexity of Sustaining and reporting activities it had a 60% overhead. I did look at the books on that. While that’s an extreme case, I’ve also seen product launched with 40% yield. One device I worked on was a stapler for the heart. We had to load the tiny staples into the device, fire it, evaluate the staple formation, then reset and reload the staples. It had about 80-90% yield if I remember correctly.
These aren’t roast beef sandwiches. People die if you fuck up.
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…and you are shit-canning someone else’s input because they don’t know everything based on your even more limited experience, suspect knowledge, and a heavily biased opinion of how you think the world should work. Lay out your superior knowledge or admit you’re just spewing a party line for the upvotes because it sure sounds like they know a hell of a lot more about the subject than you do.
Them:
I’m not trying to defend this price
You:
You are defending a company
Well done.
It’s justified by asking “how much money can we suck out of the people it helps?”
I’m sure there are some costs associated with developing drugs, and I’m sure it’s not cheap.
The problem still stands, though, and the solution is capping executive pay in public companies.
The R&D is often publicly funded by research grants, with free labor by grad students. Our tax dollars are paying for extortion over our health in this completely broken system.
As you pointed out, this is literally just sociopathic CEOs doing what capitalism demands of them.
Normally you can think of these prices as the reward to taking a risk. The chance of developing a drug and bringing it to market is usually small, and the reward should accordingly be high. However, in the particular case of Ozempic, the company attempted to develop a diabetes drug, and accidentally found that the drug works against obesity. That means that the reward in this case outweighs the risk by an obscene amount.
Your starting premise relies on the idea that the costs associated with making drugs are justified. In essence, this implies that the insane rewards are justified because risks associated with not producing a drug are so high.
Most of our science is funded via taxes and controlled by the government, given to researchers through grants that are awarded based on merit as determined by their peers. We’ve developed an adjacent system where drug discovery is funded by capital and investments from non-scientists based on the idea that “striking gold” in the medical world could make them rich.
Why not just remove the cost-barrier to entry? Require all drug discovery to be funded through grants like other research? Pay people working on drugs whether they discovered a new drug or not, as long as they provided proof of their efforts? Researchers would not need to please those with money (banks, investors) to give them funds for a drug, and so would be free to work on drugs that have a low likelihood of being profitable (such as for forgotten illnesses, or using cheap and widely available medicines in novel ways). And when an amazing drug was discovered, our society would be free to use it efficiently and at-cost, since there wouldn’t be stakeholders hungry for their massive payout.
The grant system is a mess, also. And in an ideal world those whose ideas and research led to amazing discoveries would be rewarded extensically somehow, both with appreciation and a reasonable amount of money (the staff of an entire research organization could be set financially for life for a tiny, tiny fraction of the amount of money we shovel over to pharmaceutical company stakeholders). And all of this is also tied up in the clinical medical industrial complex, with all its own neuroses.
So there are barriers to implementing something like this… But holy shit do I hear this idea a lot, that high risk justifies the insane rewards. I think it’s bogus!
Most of the research on drugs is done by universities with grant money or government labs and then the production is sold to private companies. They aren’t taking nearly the amount of risk you are claiming.
Novo Nordisk’s CEO was paid $9.8 million last year, inclusive of bonus and benefits.
Meanwhile volvo assigns the patent for the 3-point seatbelt to the public domain because it will save countless lives.
A Swedish company not being evil? What are they, the opposite of America?
Novo Nordisk is a Danish company, not American.
We were talking about Volvo.
Right. But based on context clues, it’s implied that the full meaning of the post was “Volvo did something for the public good, therefor Volvo is good. Volvo is a Swedish company. Swedish companies are good. Sweden is in Europe. European countries are good. American countries are bad. Novo Nordisk did something bad. It must be an American company.”
Admittedly, my mistake was not being more clear about the point of my response which is that geography is irrelevant - capitalism and all companies are evil (or at best, amoral).
You didn’t have a clarity issue
That was in no way what I was saying, which about U.S. companies pretty much never doing the right thing and European companies actually doing that sometimes.
Well you see… there’s the yacht, the yacht they have to land the helicopter, and the smallish yacht they use to go into port because berths at dock are hard to come by.
Oh and the. There’s the helicopter, the pilots, the mansion in every state. Except, uh, the ones that tax rich people.
It’s all part of the cost…
Have you seen all those hoes and bitches that get on those yachts and they all got their titties out and showing their ass and pussy. It’s a great trickle down economy Ronny put together.
You forgot the biggest expense; the billions of dollars in stock buybacks.
“Don’t think he knows about second yacht, Pip.”
Double pop! First time I’ve seen a privacy popup on top of a privacy popup. The top one you can only accept.
Extra privacy wow!
Ah I see they are going the Roku route.
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you can also block or remove the elements with UBlock Origin. either on desktop or mobile, just enter element picker mode, select the popup and tap create.
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Use uBlock Origin, it allows you to block these popups.
does it do that by simply accepting them, or bypassing them, and would it make sure the sites don’t track me if I used it?
It doesn’t accept or deny the popup, it just hides it. Technically if you don’t answer the cookie banner it needs to be treated as if you denied it. But you can just block all third-party cookies in Firefox and you’ll be fine.
It pretty clearly says “accept it or gtfo”
Are you expecting a No button that redirects your to Google or something?
Well… it doesn’t. Why would i have to accept twice if i did?
First is “this isn’t a negotiation. Accept or leave” Second is “pick the cookies you want”
I dont see it this way. They contradict themselves. If i accept the first one but reject the one bellow, that should override the first. Its not logical to force me to accept in order to get to the next one where i can reject
What you are rejecting in the second one are optional tracking/performance cookies.
CAD$650/month in Canada. I’ve lost 36 Kg (80 lbs) and I’m still losing weight. My blood work shows no signs of diabetes, my cardiac indicators are also excellent, but my hemoglobin is low because I don’t eat beef anymore (not because of the Ozempic, I haven’t been able to digest it for about six years.) I’m taking an iron supplement to build it back up.
Ozempic sucks until you stop fighting it. After that it’s an easy ride.
I’m wearing an XL t-shirt and large sweat pants today down from 3XL in both eight months ago.
Any side effects?
It acts by slowing down the emptying of your stomach. That means that whatever you eat stays in your stomach for many hours. If you eat too much at night or something that is acidy or spicy it causes terrible heart burn and reflux/regurgitation. I take an omeprazole with sodium bicarbonate at bedtime to relieve the acid.
I eat a granola bar or a couple of eggs for breakfast then a small bowl of whatever is on offer for dinner and that’s it. My stomach is never empty. Sometimes, if I want to have something spicy or acidy I will have it for breakfast. I’ve had a fajita for breakfast and I once had chicken parm for breakfast. Then I eat something easy for dinner.
The most upsetting side effect was the fact that I went from a daily bathroom guy to every three or four days. I was eating so much less and my body was making such good use of what I ate that I just didn’t produce much. It can cause constipation but you need to avoid taking laxatives because you can become dependant. Just drink lots of water, eat lots of fiber, and walk a lot and you will be fine.
If you fight it it’s going to make you miserable. If you lean in you will lose a lot of weight fast. I’ve lost so much weight so quickly that my body freaks me out a bit. When I’m sitting on the edge of the bed and look down at my legs I don’t recognize them. I told someone a few weeks ago that I just wanted a little candy because I’m fat and she said, “No you’re not.”
On the plus side I mentioned to my doctor that I was getting shorter (in in my late 50s and went from 5’ 10 1/2" to 5’ 9 1/2" and he asked, “Your penis?” I said, “No, that’s getting longer!” He laughed and said, “It was hiding.” I’ve actually gained an inch and a half of useable penis. (That’s a happy side effect.)
Ozempic sucks until you stop fighting it. After that it’s an easy ride.
Are there plateaus like with other weight loss?
I’m not eating any solid food due to a medical issue (long story) and I have lost 80 pounds as well. My weight can drop very quickly sometimes, as much as a pound every few days. Other times, like recently, it takes a long time to go down. It’s taken me a good two months to go from 190 to 180, whereas I was 260 at the start of January 2023.
If not eating enough period causes plateaus, I would think Ozempic would as well.
I plateaued in the low 220s for a month or so then the weight fell off me to the low 200s. I’m creeping down now at about half a pound per week. My ultimate goal was to get to 200 lbs but I’m now thinking that I may go to 190 lbs since the weight is continuing to come off. I don’t want to go lower than that. I don’t want to be a thin person. I just want to be less fat.
My husband plateaued with it and had to go to a higher dose. No idea how common that is.
I’m definitely no expert on this, but it’s my understanding that weight loss plateaus are pretty common. I’m not sure why though.
If you’re on 1mg you will plateau, weight loss was a side effect of Ozempic, 2.5mg was the magic number for consistent weight loss. I heard they had people on 3mg during trials but the side effects outweighed the benefits.
That’s pricey. Here in the UK, I think it’s like…hmm… $256 CAD. Still expensive though which puts it out of reach for a lot of people to keep it up regularly.
76.58€, here. 30% reimbursed by social security, probably another 30% by your work insurance.
I think you mean Wegovy, because I pay $220 for Ozempic at Costco, coworker pays $280 at SDM (Loblaws gotta take their cut)
Rybelsus the pill form of Ozempic is more expensive but I heard it’s in the $400 range similar in price to Mounjaro.
You’ve gotta be on Wegovy
Edit: Also based on your replies below you’re losing too much weight for it to be 1mg of Ozempic. Sure you lose some weight at 1mg but after a couple months you plateau and some of the side effects you describe are more inline with Wegovy. I’ve been on Ozempic 3 years and it affects my life absolutely zero at this point. It keeps my blood sugar in the optimal range and helps me avoid the snack food aisle but that’s about it
I’m on 1mg off Ozempic. Wegovy isn’t approved in Canada. There are typical weight loss numbers but I’ve really leaned in to the Ozempic and have done very well.
It’s been approved since 2021 just not available, much like Mounjaro is approved but only available in vial form. Mounjaro is the superior drug but since you have to inject via syringe less people are opting for it.
Ok…so not available…so how is it that you think I must be on Wegovy?
What defect of personality is it that makes you think is appropriate to tell a complete stranger that they are mistaken about the drug that they are taking (have been taking for eight months, and took last night before bed), about the dose (Ozempic is only available as 1mg), or that they have lost too much weight?
Seriously, what is wrong with you. Have you considered seeking professional help?
I started out at 283. I got an to 265 then my doctor started me on Ozempic. I’m not some lazy fuck who just lies around waiting for the drug to make me thin. I’ve dramatically changed my eating habits and I live an active lifestyle for someone my age and weight. I leaned into the drug and did better than most people. (Look up the medical definition of “typical”.)
It was the extra inch and a half of penis that triggered you, wasn’t it? Sorry, dude. Not everyone is cutout for porn.
Woah, that was alot. It wasn’t my intention to downplay your efforts. I was just trying to figure out how you were paying $650/month in a Country where it costs $220-280 depending on the pharmacy. There is no place in this country where you should be paying that much, my questions were asked so I could figure out if you were taking an off label dosage.
I don’t give a fuck about your small dick, or your exercise routine I was just interested in your dosage and why you were paying so much.
Congratulations on doing well on Ozempic, very few stick with it over the side effects. Friend of mine just got put on it, 4 weeks of 0.25, 4 weeks of 0.50 4 weeks of 0.75 and only then will he get 1mg. Alot of people don’t do well on the drug. I’m sorry I came off as a dick I just didn’t want you to be scammed. $650 is inline with what Wegovy will sell for in Canada when available this spring. So I thought maybe you got it early. My apologies for any offense I caused
I don’t pay a penny for Ozempic. My insurance covers the entire cost with no deductible. It’s cheaper to have me lighter and healthy than it is to have me fat and diabetic with high blood pressure or dead. The $650 is what my pharmacist told me that it cost without insurance. I don’t know if that’s true and I honestly don’t care.
I suspect that the people who are failing on Ozempic expected it to be a miracle drug that suddenly and effortlessly made them skinny. That isn’t me. I worked hard to get to where I am and I’m still working hard. I’m the lightest I’ve been since my late teens at 201 lbs as of 5 minutes ago.
There’s a lot of mistrust with drug makers at the moment, for good reason and this is a great article on the breakdown of costs. They do have a point about recouping the cost of R&D but maybe they should be more transparent about how long it’ll take them to do so. MBAs are very good at pulling levers to make money, they just don’t think about the human element, which is the most important lever.
Two points about R&D costs:
First, they aren’t just trying to make up what they spent on this treatment, but others that failed during research/trials. There’s a lot of them the general public will never hear about, and pharmas generally don’t like to bring attention to their failures. Part of that is many shareholders are morons who don’t understand how science works.
Second, the costs can get fuzzier for larger companies who in-house much of the R&D process, since the costs get shared among many programs. Properly attributing spend in that case can be a serious challenge.
All that said, they’ve clearly seen an opportunity to rake it in with this trendy drug and are charging way more than they need to.
If these were nonprofit companies and all employees were paid at/below market rates I would not complain.
It is the profit and CEO pay that I object to.
As I read that they charge just 155 bucks in other countries I guess the high price lies in not having a suitable health care system. You can’t have both, calling other countries socialists or communists AND having good health care by having the same contracts that we have. Sorry.
Universal Health Care is what Americans should be rioting for. It is THE game changer in QoL and what really separats a first world country from a second world country.
I remember how hard Fox News was pushing it when they could feel it possibly coming. Remember the whole “death panel” nonsense? It was absurd.
They were even saying how the current healthcare system was simpler and direct and better. It was insanity.
Death Panels decide you don’t need treatment!
Ah, much better than the insurance companies doing the same thing. Good thing insurance helps me not only die but also leaves me completely penniless and all my assets given to creditors.
It separates the capitalists from the communists?
Guys our government is broken.
$1500. That’s how much eight weeks of ozempic costs for me if I had to pay out of pocket.
How much to get people together to steal the recipe and set up a lab?
Bet its less than a five year supply, which is probably just a week or two between a group og interested parties!
There are gray market microlabs that will already make it for 1/3 the cost. Since so many insurance companies deny Ozempic for people who are pre-diabetic (which would keep them from becoming diabetic) and Wegovy for people who are obese and have cholesterol issues (again, can actually help with this) but they are not morbidly obese, people turn to these places.
Doctors say you need it and will help you, but insurance companies tell you “nah”. Yet for some reason they cover it for the endless amounts of yoga Karens who don’t need it at all.
And I’m proposing that drug production could be largely (not entirely - sometimes you need that weird ass ingredient with a supply chain that circles the globe like shibari, or a huge piece of equipment) moved to a local community context. Fuck the companies, cut them out entirely.
Where is Walter White when you need him
Jesse! We need to cook.
I honestly don’t get why so many people are so upset.
I get it with things like insulin where we know how to make it for years. But a new revolutionary drug? Sure their production cost is low but that doesn’t include R&D and just think of how many drugs don’t work. That’s why when we do find something that works we can’t expect it to only pay for itself, it has to make enough buck to basically pay for them as well, because why else even bother?
Most pharma R&D is actually done by the government. Unless they can prove it’s an outlier there…
The government funds the first phase of the search. This is very important. But beyond that, the bill is footed by private sector.
A quote from this study:
The federal government is the primary funder of basic research in biomedical sciences through the National Institutes of Health (NIH). This research is essential for informing all medical progress, including the development of therapies. Overall, 54% of basic science milestones are achieved by the public sector and 27% by the private sector. From that point onward, taking the necessary risks associated with the drug development process required to advance basic science research into safe and effective treatments for patients corresponds primarily to the biopharmaceutical industry. Performing Phase I through IV clinical trials consumes more than 90% of total research and development (R&D) cost.
A number of recent studies indicate that a majority of this R&D is funded by investments made by the private sector.1 In a 2019 report, Research America indicated that, in 2016, the private sector funded 67% of total U.S. medical and health R&D while the federal government supported 22%.
The NIH is not immune to poison pill studies financed by the industry. Research America is the for-profit health industry with a mask on. It was also physically conducted by at least one member of a political think tank that lobbies for government payouts to corporations, (PPI). Then there’s this gem at the end-
This research was supported by funding from the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA), Amgen Inc., The Biotechnology Innovation Organization (BIO), GlaxoSmithKline, Novartis International AG, Sanofi S.A., and Pfizer Inc.
Maybe, instead of leaning on opinion pieces written by the industry you should look at actual research done by PHDs.
Like this direct comparison done for 2010-2019 finding industry breaks even with the government at it’s most forgiving calculation. And at worst the government is shouldering 90 percent of the costs.
Fair enough. I should have definitely looked at the funding for the study. Thanks for providing a better study.
No idea on the statistics but this does happen. I think the onus is on the government to negotiate for the IP though. Big pharma is going to try to get the best deal they can and most of the time that’s accepting tax dollars and then selling the drug at a more conservative markup to taxpayers. If the government contract was restructured to get the actual IP then they could offer another contract for production and get competing offers.
Sure. But who is the government going to negotiate for? The people putting money in their campaigns? Or the people who they’ve already trapped into voting for them?
Can’t argue with you here. I think this is perhaps the biggest issue we face in the United States. Our government is for sale.
I think so too. We can’t get any meaningful reform until we figure it out.
I’m diabetic, and also have a few mental health issues. The doc took me off Ozempic, citing it’s side affects of messing with mental health.
Sorry to hear it. What sort of side effects were there?
Doc said risks were reported of adversely affecting PTSD, depression, and suicidal thoughts.
Oh wow. Yeah, definitely a good idea to stop taking it. I’m glad you’re still with us and I hope you’ve found a good solution!
Thanks, I’m doing pretty well. But I don’t need a drug with those side effects. I mention this primarily because these side effects appear to be largely unreported, while the drug is being widely marketed for weight loss. People should be aware of the risks.
I totally get it and those side effects absolutely need to be reported, especially if they are not uncommon.
I have a weird allergy to some opioids which results in a sort of psychosis and definitely possible self-harm, but that is a very uncommon effect there. Imagine if it was happening to people all over but no one was talking about it!
I mention this primarily because these side effects appear to be largely unreported
Thank you for doing so.
Seriously, no kidding but sometimes I think that people are still discovering capitalism
So why didn’t anyone else start manufacturing it for $5 about 15 years ago then?
Patents most likely.
Interestingly its always libertarian types defending patents; rather than being against it for being government intervention.
In either case patents and copyright need reform for today’s economy.
It was only approved very recently. Manufacturing it years ago would have been a waste, because you wouldn’t have been able to sell it.
That’s the thing.
Developing drugs, from a theoritical cure for something to an actual approved drug, normally takes years and a lot of drugs gets scrapped during this process. You don’t just have to prove that the drug is not causing more harm, your also have to prove how effective it is. There a lot of full time employee people involved in everything from developing the actual chemical to executing clinical tests.
I’m not in any way defending the way “big pharma” acts today, but all of this is more complicated than a guy suddenly saying “I’m going to create a drug that cures cancer” and then just does it in 2 years.
So out of the 10 drugs you pour a couple of millions into the development of, just 1 or 2 might make it through and get approved. If you’re lucky. So even if it’s just costs $5 manufacture that specific drug, the company still have to cover the losses from the other 8-9 that never made it.
Once again, I’m not defending all pharmaceutical companies. I’m just saying that the manufacturing cost of a drug that is approved is far from the actual cost.
If you understand all that, then why did you ask why they didn’t manufacture it?
Have you ever heard of rhetorical questions?
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