So basically American cars are 2x overpriced rn
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And lots and lots of government subsidies.
Yea, it’s the subsidies. The government of China funds questionably profitable companies such that they can sell their products at what would be a loss by any other company, undermining the values of competition in Europe/States.
What does China get out of it? Chinese products distributed globally running Chinese software and sensors which are beholden to the whims of the Chinese Government. They also get to weaken the economies of the target countries.
The United States does similar things with intelligence, but citizens of that country can at least condemn, research, and publish findings against it’s own government. What can a Chinese citizen do? Very little except obey.
The United States is also massively flawed when it comes to competition but at least there are theoretical methods for the citizens of that country to change things. If they can destroy the corporate plutocracy currently strangling democracy.
Communist country figures out how to exploit capitalism better than capitalist country, how poetic.
China isn’t a communist country, it’s a totalitarian country.
Characterized by a government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control. Totalitarianism is a political system and a form of government that prohibits opposition political parties, disregards and outlaws the political claims of individual and group opposition to the state, and controls the public sphere and the private sphere of society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
Communism is defined as:
political and economic doctrine that aims to replace private property and a profit-based economy with public ownership and communal control of at least the major means of production (e.g., mines, mills, and factories) and the natural resources of a society.
It calls itself communist just like a big chunk of the world calls itself capitalist but doesn’t let the market regulate itself
North Korea calls itself the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Do you also refer to North Korea as a Democratic country?
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Being an open country has upsides and downsides certainly. The same could be said for Russia/China’s information war exploiting freedom of speech on those not educated in critical thought.
As if the US doesn’t also subsidize and funnel money into specific companies/industries for questionable reasons.
Did you read their whole comment? They addressed that and pointed it out several times themselves.
All they said is that you are allowed to call it out. Whoopdeedoo. Still happens.
Every car manufacturer receives massive subsidies no matter where they are located.
This is oil money, nothing more, nothing less.
You might want to look at some of the loosening child labor laws here in the US. Hyundai’s plants have been caught several times using child labor.
I’m not defending China’s practices by any means because many are truly horrific but the US is pretty far from perfect in many states.
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Yeah, at least the US uses only their own prisoners as slave labor.
What-aboutism is amazing, isn’t it? There’s a response for everything.
A direct comparison in a direct comparison conversation is not a whataboutism.
Do provide a source that shows Chinese cars are made with child labour.
Source ?
Child labour? Care to back up that claim?
What child labor? There are no kids in China, they have some of the lowest fertility in the world and the most intense school hours for the rest
You’re like 40 years out of date
Yes, and it’s poor Americans who need a vehicle to buy groceries and get to work everyday who are getting shafted while the automakers rake in the profits. Not to mention the environmental costs of driving on fossil fuels.
Maybe we should get our politicians to invest in, say, mass transit. Seems pretty obvious
Why would they do that when they get bribes from automakers.
Allowing China to sell these vehicles here at well below cost is only going to shaft poor Americans even further. They’re trying to do what Walmart does to small-town economies.
You give a great example because the US has no problem with shafting poor Americans if it’s American companies (i.e. big donors to American politicians) doing the shafting. At least we’d get affordable vehicles from these Chinese companies. Meanwhile the complacent American auto companies have engorged themselves on profits from overpriced vehicles, announcing record-breaking profits, and refusing to reduce prices even when supply chain issues have been worked out. This is after American auto companies sat around with their thumbs up their asses, dragging their heels on developing electric vehicles, and even working against the development of them. Now they’re claiming that demand for EVs isn’t actually all that great, but for some reason they’re afraid of Chinese EVs (probably because the Chinese are giving customers what they actually want – affordable practical EVs).
These leeches needed to be bailed out and they will forever need to be bailed out because instead of running a business that gives people what they want, they just do whatever can extract the most money out of people while squandering the profits on stock buybacks and fat bonuses for their executives. They’re considered too big to fail, but really they’re too big to exist.
You can make up dastardly schemes to explain the prices all you want but this isn’t borne out in reality. The bigger EV manufacturers here, outside of Tesla, aren’t even American companies, they’re South Korean and European and they’re all selling their vehicles for similar prices to American companies. Tesla seems to be doing pretty well with sales, which means plenty of people are willing to pay these prices.
Additionally, apart from Tesla, there are only two American auto companies, GM and Ford, so I don’t know why you think they’re controlling the entire auto industry in the US.
If I’m just making things up, then why are car prices so damn high and car companies are posting record profits? Tesla is only doing fine because it was the first big EV manufacturer to market and it’s riding on that momentum. People willing to go with the least worst option available doesn’t mean the option isn’t bad. If it was a good option, then the ones offering those options wouldn’t be afraid of the competition. Tesla cancelled development of a $25k model shortly before these tariffs would be announced. This is not a mere coincidence. They know that there is high demand for cheap EVs, but auto companies here much prefer fatter profit margins and the government is all too happy to protect those fatter profit margins.
Chinese companies focused on development of better and cheaper batteries and the result is that they’re able to offer much cheaper EVs. Why should that be punished while the other car companies get rewarded for dragging their heels on EVs due to their comfort in selling petrol cars?
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Chinese EV companies are rather profitable, with BYD making billions of yuan profit last year. On the other hand, Rivian is losing, what was it, just about $40,000 per car?
And that profit is coming straight from the government as there is no way they’re making billions in profit by selling brand new cars for $10k in 2024. There is zero margin there.
They have cars from $10k to $200+k. BYD includes a bunch of brands, including the Yangwang brand which builds the $150k U8 and the $230k U9. Not to mention their busses which are used around the world.
Cool but I don’t see how that’s relevant to the discussion of them trying to sell $10k EVs in the US.
Nobody here is arguing to buy a $230,000 Chinese EV.
They wouldn’t only sell $10k vehicles, and they wouldn’t only target the bottom of the market. If their actions in other countries are to be repeated, they wouldn’t sell $10k vehicles in the US, because the market isn’t nearly as competitive. It’s very likely, given the prices they’re charging elsewhere, that the lowest prices we’d see for a BYD would be $20k.
BYD currently makes ~$1,500 per vehicle, compared to Ford at $3,000, and Tesla at $5,300/vehicle. They’re lower margin, certainly, but they’re not just dumping cars at bargain bin prices.
US manufacturers received 4x the subsidy that Chinese manufacturers did last year. If anyone is trying to artificially manipulate the market, it’s the place that’s blockading their competitors vehicles while pumping dozens of billions of dollars into them every year.
You would be the person complaining about Japanese cars in the 80s, to be honest, and if we listened to them, we’d all still be getting 12mpg driving V6 and V8 2 ton monstrosities that break down every 5000 miles. Many of us still do, the F-150 is the most popular car in the US after all, but the rest of us at least have the option to get high mileage, high reliability vehicles.
I’m not working in the conditions the Chinese have decided is ok. They can be poor and live in barracks at factories, I like free time and money.
So youre saying American cars dont import any parts? They dont preassemble overseas? Everything is 100% made by american Union labor?
Big 3 copium as usual.
Eventually they’ll do what Japense OEMs did and open factories in the USA.
I mean, that’s precisely the ideal case and goal of many tariffs.
Only I think they’re already opening factories in Mexico. Which again isn’t a terrible situation either.
Mexico
How about American companies just learn to compete? The same bullshit is why we can’t get a fucking normal sized truck in this country.
How about American workers learn to work for the same wages and working conditions.
If you want companies to pay a living wage with strong unions and safe working conditions, then competition with other places that don’t bother with those things becomes near impossible.
See: The factories that iPhone is built in
No. We can still pay workers much better and make much more lower priced affordable models.
Stop giving the CEOs, upper management, investors, etc., millions and millions of dollars. I don’t care what anyone says.
We can have the sub 10k priced EV, or even less, like China has. They can still make money on luxury/performance “status” models.
This is all about keeping extreme wealth for the extreme wealthy. Wall Street, etc. Full stop.
We can have very well payed workers and much cheaper yet still quality vehicles.
Agreed. This is something that is very much overlooked when people talk about how manufacturing in China works. The country is split into special economic zones that have different rules and laws that govern the regions. This allows them to uniquely exploit their labor markets to keep their costs as low as possible.
iPhones are built by FoxConn in their Shenzhen factories. See FoxConn Suicides for more.
EV manufacture is mostly automated… This argument makes no sense. 8 people to build an ICE. you only need one for an EV.
Are these tariffs based off how they treat their workers? Do countries with good working conditions not have tariffs?
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China’s neighbor’s brains: CHINA BAD
i wouldnt hate this so much if america produced quality automobiles. but we dont. so watch people pay double for something that will last twice as long.
even at equal pricing, they just push out better quality than we can seem to muster
Cough Boeing Cough
Considering how many Boeing aircraft are out there operating every day and how very little we hear about issues I am not sure this is an effective example.
All of those were made when American companies had a semblance of building actually good products.
New Boeing planes are being built everyday. Americans companies are filling these orders every month.
You hear a couple of bad things in the news and you get hysterical.
Perspective is important.
We absolutely do make quality vehicles in the USA. Especially pickup trucks.
Modern American cars suck
Chevy has notoriously weak body panels. The 3.6 they’re throwing in everything has issues with the cylinder deactivation system. The 4 bangers are made in Korea from Daewoo. They also have weird electrical issues, usually due to the 2 battery system. Certain ones shipped with features built in but not wired up and functional (heated seats). They have to retrofit newer models with features from older ones (heated wheel in the tahoes must be retrofitted from 21 or older models), no blind zone either on the tahoes which is strange for a new vehicle in it’s class.
Ford had engine fire recalls on most of their trucks and large SUVs. Transmission issues plagued Fords as well if you bought automatic like 90% of Americans. 1.0 EcoSport had a dogshit motor. The only two Ford products worth buying are a Mustang or a Ford Edge if you’re a mainstream consumer. I consider the raptor and enthusiast truck
Dodge/Chrysler has been consistent, but consistently mid. Transmission issues in all the trucks. Most of the SUVs like the compass and Cherokee run a fiat 4 cylinder. The 5.7 hemi gets only marginally better performance than the 3.6 pentastar. The 6.4 and 5.7 have lifter issues. The 3.6 had some minor misfire issues in the Pacificas. Some of the new jeep wranglers are a 2.0 turbo. It helps when you design the same vehicle since 2013.
Post COVID cars worth buying
Anything Toyota/Lexus if you want the best all around
Anything Mazda that’s naturally aspirated, or turbo if you care about your car maintenance.
Anything Hyundai/Kia that has a Korean motor (1.6t) and you maintain your car. The American made motors for Hyundai are terrible.
Altima and 4 cylinder rogue is fine. 6 cylinder maxima and Murano is fine. CVT isn’t as bad as it used to be. I don’t trust the 3 cylinder turbo.
Subaru is mid, the fa24 is good. The FB25 is mid and have issues after 100k if maintenance isn’t done and PCV isn’t maintained. The CVT is okay. The wrx 6 speed is mid. The STI is discountinued but had the best transmission. If you like expensive projects, go with any performance Subaru, and spend 3-4k on an STi drivetrain, it’ll bolt up 9 times out of 10
Honda 1.5t has head gasket issues. The 2.0 is great, but they’re not really using it much. The civic SI is mid and gets outperformaned by a Jetta.
Volkswagens are great if you maintain your car well. I have a controversial argument that the ea888 2.0t is the best all around 4 cylinder, even the k series.
Luxury brands like Audi, bmw, Mercedes and the such aren’t great for a mainstream consumer. Enthusiasts that do research will buy them anyway. For the average person, they’re too expensive to maintain, and the luxury features people seek can be attained in a Signature trim Mazda for a fraction of the price.
I’m autistic, I work around cars every day, and I really really like cars.
I have a 2019 turbo cx5… Besides oil changes and tire rotation, what additional maintenance should I be doing over a naturally aspirated engine?
Outside of regular oil changes, I’d say spark plugs at 75-90k. I would flush coolant at 100k, then every 60k. Check your belts and hoses at 95-110k. Check your brake and fuel lines at 100k. Air filter every other oil change. If you ever take your intercooler off, check for oil blow by. A little bit won’t kill it. If at or under a quarter tank, don’t go full throttle to reduce strain on the fuel pump.
Transmission fluid flush at 90-100k with the filter. At 75k is when I would make it a habit to check oil every time at the gas pump if you think of it. Modern cars can burn oil per spec at higher mileages.
The turbo should be fine if you keep your oil and coolant maintained. If you just use it as a daily driver, you shouldn’t need to touch anything else until it breaks. An upgraded fuel pump can be insurance, but not necessary.
At higher mileages (120k+), you might start seeing signs of worn suspension and worn bushings. But if they aren’t wobbling and aren’t broken and you don’t mind the ride, it’ll be fine. But replacing bushings would make the ride good as new
I’m sure I’m missing something. But the Subaru forums have a really good write-up on midlife maintenance. A lot of this can apply to your Mazda
Careful with transmission flushes. They usually cause more trouble than it’s worth. This is usually a bad idea unless you’re already having issues.
Agreed.
Man Chrysler products suck so bad! The only American brand next to Tesla would never buy. I’m a car dealer in FL and have seen it all, all vehicles have their problems, it mainly comes down to how they are treated and maintained. I’ve currently got a 2019 ford ranger with a good tune on it and have not had a single issue 65k miles down the road.
The 2.3 block you have was based off the Mazda L engine that they had in the older rangers/b2000, but newer heads
The Ecoboost wouldn’t be good without Mazda and Cosworth
Ford owned a controlling share of Mazda during the L series design, it was developed together by ford and Mazda. It’s not just the heads, everything is different except the cylinder blocks lineage. No interchangeable parts.
Also I was talking post COVID cars, since that’s what time we’re in. 2020+ American cars are not as good as they used to be.
Sure Ford co developed the engine, and it wasn’t put in American Ford models outside of the focus until 5 years after it’s development. But a lot of the research and design was mazda
There’s enough Korean videos out there slamming their engines for me to believe the Korean-made engines are any better. It’s a design flaw.
Post COVID and confirmed they were 1.6ts?
What a claim to fame. The best absurdly large pedestrian killers for suburban parents to pick up groceries with.
Stupid if you don’t need one. Absolutely essential if you do. I am a car dealer and also do aircraft salvage, without a good truck the business is not possible.
True, but most of the people driving them absolutely do not need one, and that’s an intentional strategy pushed by car makers to work around emissions standards and because larger vehicles have a higher profit margin.
Electrics, then.
It’s treason then!
Not as if Chinese EV were any good though…
I’ve been reading reviews from EU and Australia. The initial quality has improved a lot.
Long term/long distance reliability is what will probably be the biggest issue.
Agree 100 percent.
Whoa, did they win a JD Power award for that?
Overpriced for sure, but there are great options out there. Been driving fords for years. Have a ranger now and an old 7.3 that is invincible.
Ah, the free* market at work
International companies are not entitled to a country’s free market
Sure … The free market is only free as long as i always win
How can you call it a “free market” if it’s actually a “free market*”?
*terms and conditions apply
They aren’t sweeping Chinese cars under the road here as much as they are sweeping an actually affordable, practical EV option that could easily win the mass market and shift the status quo away from ICE engine vehicles at scale.
Bigger problem is, that while blocking the Chinese options, they won’t give us a similar option at that same affordable cost.
Blatantly anti-competitive practices. We don’t have a free market in the US. Shit is expensive so the wealthy can continue to profit at record levels while citizens pay the price. Why try to compete when you can protect the wealthy and make your country suffer?
The CCP can artificially depress the value of their currency and subsidize their industries indefinitely. They are doing this on the backs of their workers, who should earn more for their labor. They are doing this because their own workers are too poor to provide sufficient domestic demand for their consumer goods, however, this strategy just makes their workers poorer, exacerbating the problem. Chinese exports should be used to make their economy self-sustaining, but they just perpetuate economic bubbles and malinvestment that cause economic stagnation. Neither domestic nor international commerce has never been free of interference or fair.
and subsidize their industries indefinitely
People keep saying this that are fully aware the US subsidizes its industries too. Yeah? They subsidize their electric vehicles? Fuckin good!
I don’t think whataboutism ever helps anything. American subsidies and bailouts has not resulted in better consumer choice. However, choosing options that are due to dumping isn’t going to produce sustainable industry either in China after the subsidies there end. The only real solution is to actually make practical electric vehicles at an affordable price.
Its resulted in lower prices for the industries subsidized.
I have no idea what you mean by dumping and unsustainable. Why would the subsidies end?
The only real solution is to actually make practical electric vehicles at an affordable price.
Do you realize youre arguing against a method to achieve more affordable prices?
I think he is stating that by subsidizing Chinese vehicles way below what could be practical to sell subsided non-Chinese vehicles at China can effectively kill off the non-Chinese automotive manufacturing capacity over enough time. Once this has been achieved China can increase prices drastically as Americans would no longer have domestic car options to buy, and creating a monopoly.
Just like how people can no longer afford low end manufactured goods because China massively increased the prices once they took over that market, right?
The US has way more money available to compete with those subsidies.
Considering we’re deficit spending with every budget cycle, I’d say no we don’t have the money. Furthermore, what about all the other brands sold in the US besides the three American ones of GM, Ford, and Tesla?
Yes but the alternative is not having to spend tons of money to subsidize private industry and not letting China profit off of American auto sales.
The military and government contacts alone will keep the big 3 in business. They’re in no danger of a mom and pop Walmart situation.
So, the Amazon & Walmart strategy?
That’s true and all but this decision is solely about oil barons and their fat fucking profits.
Its no coincidence that they are going after electric cars and solar panels. Chinese workers have had it rough for 30 years but green tech is where we draw the line and not literally everything else, who believes this?
Its not to protect the economy, it’s not to protect the Chinese workers.
This is only about oil profits.
China did the same thing with solar panels a decade ago. It’s the reason why my wife’s employer shut down and hundreds of people lost their job. Having endless money to subsidize your product and sell it well below cost doesn’t lead to more competition or better options. It puts everyone out of business and creates a monopoly for the country doing the subsidies who then has no reason to keep the price low.
It’s not the 80s any more. China has the largest middle class in the world, bigger than the population of most countries. 40% of the vehicles in service there are already electric. In the cities I visited it’s closer to 80%. Chinese shopping malls are filled with name brand western products and always busy. You’re either ignorant of the modern reality of China, or just a liar.
China doesn’t have the worker protections that the US has, the same level of gov’t support, nor the environmental rules that the US has. It’s only anti-competitive if there is a level playing field.
China doesn’t have the worker protections that the US has
Yeah weve got protections, like minimum off time for sleep…wait no. Maternity leave? Nah. Well our child workers get protected meal breaks at least. But not the adults. Water breaks or temperature limits? Still no. US doesnt have damn worker protections.
You got 3 downvotes and no replies, so I’m replying to let you know you’re speaking the truth. People are butthurt that the US isn’t as good as it could be.
Naw, it’s just both sides whatism bullshit. If anyone thinks as bad as things are in the US (and they are shitty), that workers are treated better in China, well they are higher than I am and don’t deserve a response.
Its a combination of being unaware of how bad things are in the US, and having nothing but stereotypes to inform how you think Chinese labor is. Guess who has mandated maternity leave and who doesnt. Or paid sick leave. Or laws tying minimum wage to cost of living.
Guess who also has to put suicide nets in their factories due to the working conditions of employees who are forced to live on-site and spend their earnings in company stores.
Apple, an American business.
Unpaid wages are a chronic problem in China. Migrant workers are rarely given formal employment contracts. China’s state-run labour unions (independent ones are banned) often side with management in disputes. So companies are under little pressure to pay workers in a timely manner. Sometimes, when business is bad, they refuse to pay them at all. Tensions typically come to a head in the period before the Spring Festival, when migrant workers scramble to get months of back pay before going home. source
Now talk about environmental issues and state market manipulation.
Shitty migrant worker treatment, which country are you talking about again?
Where the fuck did anyone say workers are treated better in China? Do you enjoy making shit up?
Where the fuck did anyone say the US had fantastic worker protections? Do you enjoy making shit up?
What. Are you high. It was your comment that started the topic. Jesus Christ what is wrong with people
My wife lives and works in China. She can afford to rent a place in a city on minimum wage with no issues, healthcare, even emergency healthcare is cheap and without lines, she has more sick time benefits than I do, workers democracy literally just got mandated for all private and public companies. Tell me how much better I have it making $60k a year and being unable to afford to rent an apartment or go to the doctor even with insurance?
And the government just realized this now and are going to make it clear it isn’t okay by fucking up any export out of China that has the word green in it.
Nothing to do with oil money folks, just China got caught red handed and we just weren’t looking before. Yes, you can still keep your iPhone but fuck your solar panels and any car that doesn’t crave gasoline.
China literally has 40 hour workweeks, triple overtime, mandated workers democracy, mandated sick leave, mandated vacation time… this isn’t the 80s man. In a lot of ways they’re ahead of my country as far as labor protections go. My wife works at IKEA and gets better sick leave time than I do at a multi billion dollar company in the west.
Because China would be wise to subsidize their auto industry to sell at a loss just long enough to kill the American & European auto industry forcing us to buy Chinese vehicles.
this is the japanese scare all over again
Read as: The only way they can compete with Chinese vehicles is 100% tariff
Well yeah. The companies are state subsidized and a good bit of the tech is stolen from electric car companies in other countries that actually have to pay for R&D.
So Musk doesn’t get any tax incentives and write offs?
Not at the same level, no. And we frankly shouldn’t be doing that either.
Plus the US government trying to stage a coup in Bolivia to secure cheap lithium supplies: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/nov/25/we-will-coup-whoever-we-want-the-unbearable-hubris-of-musk-and-the-billionaire-tech-bros
that is the same myth that big pharma explains why Americans pay so much more for medicine.
https://newrepublic.com/article/153864/innovation-drug-price-myth
US automakers have expressed that they are fine economically making expensive cars for rich people. of course that is after 80 years of lobbying to under cut public transit and trains.
True, but far less than American manufacturers.
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Great news after Tesla cancelled it’s plans for an entry model. Green for me not for thee.
There are some other American brands that have decent EV options now. Hopefully that continues to grow
GM who put out a faulty platform across several brands and gave data to insurers so premiums shot up? Or Ford who can’t build an EV below 50k and are allergic to building something that’s not the size of an armored military vehicle?
What’s the GM faulty platform you’re talking about? Is there a wiki page I could read?
This article is more about their battery problems than their software problems. It does however at least mention the stop sale order due to software glitches. Combine that with the battery problem and well… I’m hoping for a good 2024 but I’m not holding my breath.
And taxing Chinese EVs before they even come to market, but after they’ve proven themselves in Europe is just so obviously a protectionist move.
I was a victim of what I believe he’s talking about; the chip went haywire and took months to fix on my volt. It was a wide spread problem and they had a few of them in the dealership waiting on the part
Free market for thee, but not for mee.
I don’t actually mind the US protecting their economy from a predatory one that is more powerful - but I’d like USians to remember this when their politicians argue for war against 3rd world countries that want to protect their economies from the US.
Jesus Christ he’s actually trying to lose this election.
I remember when trump was called out on his dumb little trade war (and rightfully so), but now that biden took the same trade war and escalated it, somehow it’s all good. Then these hypocrites wonder why people think both parties are the same.
Saying both parties are the same is an early sign of dementia.
It’s always fascinating to watch liberals attempting to distance themselves from their more overtly fascist cousins… yeah - totally nothing suspicious going on there.
No, you’re just scared to face the reality that you actually have no power in this country, and the both sides are in fact the same. One just says the N word.
Anyone who thinks both sides are the same is head caved in stupid, not paying attention, or willfully lying.
I would vote for a presidency that is for free trade. Allow these companies to mature in the market. Though in this case the technology in US cars is extremely behind. I mean were only just getting LFP in cars, and while 800v that allows for super fast charging is markedly common over there, it is in only a few models here. I’m not getting why we’re putting these companies under tariff, legacy doesn’t have an EV industry with the capacity to scale affordable EV. A lack of innovation is also something to mention. It really shouldn’t be considered a good thing when a 10 year old EV like the Bolt is a best seller. I wish the US legacy auto EV industry would either build a very basic aerodynamic economy EV with no tech nonsense for under 25k with 250 miles minimum or just leave it to Tesla and Chinese OEM. I mean all of them have abandoned the sedan and economy car market… Why not let the Chinese have that market share if they can’t build something comparable just put tariffs on Chinese SUV and trucks which is a segment that legacy auto can’t stop building.
Ah yes… Scotch tariffs really helped save our domestic Scotch market.
Anti climate move
Fucking cowards
Still worth it.
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