I don’t read it as that… To me it looks like being afraid of leaving the closet causes homophobia
This is the same principle as small penis men buying large trucks… They are doubling down on the homophobia display to over compensate for their homosexuality
I think that other people often make the claim that homophobes are secretly gay and I’m asking if we actually know how many, even based on a rough estimate, that applies to. If not, it’s a spurious and rather disturbing claim.
This is exactly how stereotypes work. And no, they should not be taking super seriously even if they do tend to come from some real life examples
Personally, I am not super concerned if claims against homophobes are spurious, they do not seem to mind claiming gay people are pedophiles in disguise for example
But as I said, it suggests that queer people are the homophobes. That’s my issue. It lessens the bigotry issue if the implication is that cishet people aren’t the ones being homophobic.
Homophobia is the reason some queer people self hate so goddamn much they lash out at all queer people while the original homophobes cheer it on. Also, some people are just awful, terrible monsters regardless of their sexuality.
Sure, there are self-hating people of all sorts of marginalized groups, but queer people are the only ones who get regularly talked about as if the people who oppress them are also queer.
You don’t hear about Muslims being oppressed by secret Muslims.
I cannot provide evidence for this, obviously, but it would seem to me that most bigots are bigots because they’re bigoted, not because they’re secretly the thing they’re bigoted against.
Okay then, you don’t hear about white bigots being secretly light-skinned black people. Pick whatever group you want. Queer people are the only one I can think of where it’s regularly claimed that the people bigoted against them are themselves the people they are bigoted against.
Nah it’s a tale as old as time, we used to call it “the one who smelt it dealt it” but the principle is the same. The most fervent and vocal are often just trying to cover their own asses.
I don’t care to sit here all day thinking about it and I’m not sure I agree with that characterization anyway, it seems like you’re just looking for a fight honestly.
Do you understand what I’m saying though, are you familiar with the phrase? Another is “when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you.” It’s a fairly common bit of folk wisdom.
I understand what you’re saying, I just don’t agree with your analogy where you equate suggesting all homophobes are secretly gay with accusing someone of farting.
Sure, there are self-hating people of all sorts of marginalized groups, but queer people are the only ones who get regularly talked about as if the people who oppress them are also queer.
Not true, pedophiles often fall in this category and there is even more evidence of this to justify correlation
In four studies, the researchers looked at the discrepancies between what people say about their sexual orientation and their implicit sexual orientation based on a reaction-time test. The studies involved college students from Germany and the United States.
For the implicit measure, students had to categorize words and pictures flashed onto a computer screen into “gay” or “straight” groups. Words included “gay,” “straight,” “homosexual” and “heterosexual,” while the pictures showed straight and gay couples. Before each trial, participants were primed with the word “me” or “others” flashed momentarily onto a computer screen. The researchers said quicker reaction time for “me” and “gay,” and a slower association of “me” with “straight” would indicate said an implicit gay orientation. [Why Gay Parents May Be the Best Parents]
In another experiment, the researchers measured implicit sexual orientation by having participants choose to browse same-sex or opposite-sex photos on a computer screen.
Questionnaires also teased out the parenting style the participants were exposed to, with students asked how much they agreed or disagreed with statements such as: “I felt controlled and pressured in certain ways;” and “I felt free to be who I am.” To gauge homophobia in a household, students responded to items such as, “It would be upsetting for my mom to find out she was alone with a lesbian” or “My dad avoids gay men whenever possible.”
Participants indicated their own level of homophobia, both overt and implicit; in word-completion tasks, students wrote down the first three words that came to mind when prompted with some of the words’ letters. Students were primed at some point with the word “gay” to see how that impacted the amount of aggressive words used.
For example, that last part measured impulsive reactions to things. Someone can have an impulsive negative reaction to the word ‘gay’ for many reasons and not be homophobic. If I’m raised by parents to hate queer people, even if I don’t, I may have an instant visceral reaction to those words (the article even talks about parenting).
I can say this in my own life- I was raised by a father who was fanatically pro-Israel. I often have an immediate reaction to a criticism of Israel despite my total lack of support for that nation because I spent 18 years being told Israel was the only thing standing between me and Auschwitz. It doesn’t matter that I know that isn’t true. In the spur of the moment, before I realize what my reaction is, I can’t control it. So yeah, if someone used that word on me and told me to instantly write down three words that come to mind, they might be very, very different than if they told me to wait even ten seconds before I wrote down my first word.
“You’re a grown fucking adult” and your anecdotal examples is not evidence that the majority of homophobes are queer.
I will keep asking this- is there any other oppressed group where you would claim the majority of the people oppressing them are of that group? Are the majority of antisemites Jews? Are a majority of ableists disabled? If not, why is it only queer people who are responsible for their own bigotry?
They imply that queer people are the cause of homophobia.
I don’t think it would be accurate to call someone like Ted Haggard or Marcus Bachmann or Jerry Falwell Jr “queer”, as they are deeply closeted and conformist presenting. That said, I do see the consequences of prior iterations of conversion therapy produce a group of incredibly violent and sadistic “ex” gay men.
So I might say that violence against queer people has a cyclical effect and perpetuates homophobia, in the same way that violence against women perpetuates misogyny and violence against pocs perpetuate racism. Some of the people who have had their personalities systematically reshaped through physical and psychological abuse inherit the job of abusing the next generation. They are held up as symbols of the system’s success and granted special privilege on the condition they continue the cycle of violence on behalf of the originators of the system.
But when you get behind the Ted Haggards and Marcus Bachmans and Falwell Jrs, you’ll routinely find patriarchs fixated on their genetic legacy, who see queer children as a threat to their continued line. The real root of this problem is the fixation on race science and genetic bloodlines. The extremely high opinion that Ronald Reagan or Dick Cheney or Mitt Romney or Donald Trump have of themselves and the desperate need they have for large families that will propagate their own genes leads to this ideological revulsion towards children who won’t also have large families.
Its the blue blooded aristocrat’s need for racial purity that leads to homophobia. Brutalized ex-gay converts are simply their deputies, in the endless war on their own children and grandchildren in pursuit of even more offspring.
As I have said to others- You are talking about 18 actual people vs. every time any person in the news says something homophobic. That’s the problem. There are, if you were to believe what is said, no cishet homophobes. They’re all secretly queer.
People do that to Catholic church as well, does that make you feel like EVERY clergy man is a predator?
It’s just a coincidence, but frequent enough, to make that connection.
Same as here. And those same homophobes and fragile masculiners will sing praises about well-built male bodies. And keep almost exclusively male company.
There are people who oppose gay marriage because it works for them politically, but if their base shifted opinions, would support it 100%. But they keep it all on the down low.
I really don’t like comments like this. They imply that queer people are the cause of homophobia.
I don’t read it as that… To me it looks like being afraid of leaving the closet causes homophobia
This is the same principle as small penis men buying large trucks… They are doubling down on the homophobia display to over compensate for their homosexuality
But haven’t you noticed that every loudmouth homophobe gets called secretly queer?
I think it’s because they so often are … It’s becoming a stereotype now
I think they so often are claimed to be. How many actually are? Have there been some? Yes. Do we actually know how many? Even a rough estimate?
Well there’s this list https://www.advocate.com/politicians/2018/5/24/18-homophobic-leaders-who-turned-out-be-gay-or-bi
18 people vs. every single person who says anything homophobic that gets reported on the news since people always claim that person is closeted.
Which is my point.
They portrait themselves as raging homophobics just to then pretend to be gay? I don’t follow
I think that other people often make the claim that homophobes are secretly gay and I’m asking if we actually know how many, even based on a rough estimate, that applies to. If not, it’s a spurious and rather disturbing claim.
This is exactly how stereotypes work. And no, they should not be taking super seriously even if they do tend to come from some real life examples
Personally, I am not super concerned if claims against homophobes are spurious, they do not seem to mind claiming gay people are pedophiles in disguise for example
But as I said, it suggests that queer people are the homophobes. That’s my issue. It lessens the bigotry issue if the implication is that cishet people aren’t the ones being homophobic.
I’m just hoping that the stereotype gets to them and causes them to mellow out in response.
Homophobia is the reason some queer people self hate so goddamn much they lash out at all queer people while the original homophobes cheer it on. Also, some people are just awful, terrible monsters regardless of their sexuality.
Sure, there are self-hating people of all sorts of marginalized groups, but queer people are the only ones who get regularly talked about as if the people who oppress them are also queer.
You don’t hear about Muslims being oppressed by secret Muslims.
I cannot provide evidence for this, obviously, but it would seem to me that most bigots are bigots because they’re bigoted, not because they’re secretly the thing they’re bigoted against.
Religion isn’t something intrinsic about a person. If you hate the fact that you’re a Muslim, you can opt out.
You cannot opt out being queer.
Okay then, you don’t hear about white bigots being secretly light-skinned black people. Pick whatever group you want. Queer people are the only one I can think of where it’s regularly claimed that the people bigoted against them are themselves the people they are bigoted against.
Yeah, nobody says that people opposed to disability rights are secretly suffering from an invisible disability.
Again people don’t choose disabilities
We choose them as much as we choose to be gay. And when they’re invisible we can hide them similarly well in my experience
Nah it’s a tale as old as time, we used to call it “the one who smelt it dealt it” but the principle is the same. The most fervent and vocal are often just trying to cover their own asses.
Can you name another example where bigotry against a traditionally marginalized minority is virtually always claimed to be coming from that minority?
I don’t care to sit here all day thinking about it and I’m not sure I agree with that characterization anyway, it seems like you’re just looking for a fight honestly.
Do you understand what I’m saying though, are you familiar with the phrase? Another is “when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you.” It’s a fairly common bit of folk wisdom.
I understand what you’re saying, I just don’t agree with your analogy where you equate suggesting all homophobes are secretly gay with accusing someone of farting.
Not true, pedophiles often fall in this category and there is even more evidence of this to justify correlation
Sorry, you’re saying that people who hate pedophiles are themselves pedophiles?
Not at all… and looking at the rest of your comments I don’t really know what you are fishing for but I don’t want to play your game
I’m not “fishing for” anything. Please don’t make ridiculous accusations about me. If that isn’t what you meant, what did you mean?
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If that’s how reality works, you can provide me with statistics that show that the majority of homophobes are themselves queer.
Statistics might be hard. But there’s studies https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/overview.html
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1743609516003192
Next to these studies there’s also examples of staunch anti-queer people who later got caught being queer themselves, especially politicians.
That first one is paywalled, but I found it here: https://archive.ph/DwLa8#selection-707.0-735.328
I also find their evidence quite spurious:
For example, that last part measured impulsive reactions to things. Someone can have an impulsive negative reaction to the word ‘gay’ for many reasons and not be homophobic. If I’m raised by parents to hate queer people, even if I don’t, I may have an instant visceral reaction to those words (the article even talks about parenting).
I can say this in my own life- I was raised by a father who was fanatically pro-Israel. I often have an immediate reaction to a criticism of Israel despite my total lack of support for that nation because I spent 18 years being told Israel was the only thing standing between me and Auschwitz. It doesn’t matter that I know that isn’t true. In the spur of the moment, before I realize what my reaction is, I can’t control it. So yeah, if someone used that word on me and told me to instantly write down three words that come to mind, they might be very, very different than if they told me to wait even ten seconds before I wrote down my first word.
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“You’re a grown fucking adult” and your anecdotal examples is not evidence that the majority of homophobes are queer.
I will keep asking this- is there any other oppressed group where you would claim the majority of the people oppressing them are of that group? Are the majority of antisemites Jews? Are a majority of ableists disabled? If not, why is it only queer people who are responsible for their own bigotry?
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Cool, I’m just going to flag you for your incivility.
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I don’t think it would be accurate to call someone like Ted Haggard or Marcus Bachmann or Jerry Falwell Jr “queer”, as they are deeply closeted and conformist presenting. That said, I do see the consequences of prior iterations of conversion therapy produce a group of incredibly violent and sadistic “ex” gay men.
So I might say that violence against queer people has a cyclical effect and perpetuates homophobia, in the same way that violence against women perpetuates misogyny and violence against pocs perpetuate racism. Some of the people who have had their personalities systematically reshaped through physical and psychological abuse inherit the job of abusing the next generation. They are held up as symbols of the system’s success and granted special privilege on the condition they continue the cycle of violence on behalf of the originators of the system.
But when you get behind the Ted Haggards and Marcus Bachmans and Falwell Jrs, you’ll routinely find patriarchs fixated on their genetic legacy, who see queer children as a threat to their continued line. The real root of this problem is the fixation on race science and genetic bloodlines. The extremely high opinion that Ronald Reagan or Dick Cheney or Mitt Romney or Donald Trump have of themselves and the desperate need they have for large families that will propagate their own genes leads to this ideological revulsion towards children who won’t also have large families.
Its the blue blooded aristocrat’s need for racial purity that leads to homophobia. Brutalized ex-gay converts are simply their deputies, in the endless war on their own children and grandchildren in pursuit of even more offspring.
Damn you dumb
Please do educate dumb me by providing evidence that most or all homophones are secretly queer.
There and their are gay af
It’s because it’s a recurring theme.
Not that queer people cause homophobia, just a lot of homophobes turn out to fuck the same gender.
As I have said to others- You are talking about 18 actual people vs. every time any person in the news says something homophobic. That’s the problem. There are, if you were to believe what is said, no cishet homophobes. They’re all secretly queer.
It’s just a random list, but there have been a lot more.
The point is, nobody believes they are all gay, just that many of the fervent ones happen to be. Or at the very least they have dabbled in the acts.
Like catholic church - very anti-gay, get altar boys have been molested at a very high rate.
So while ‘not all homophobes’, there is certainly a trend. And I dunno, perhaps it should be investigated deeper when you push on it like that.
And yet, as I said, every single time someone says something homophobic in the media, the claim is that they’re closeted.
So I think people do believe that. They may not admit they believe it, but what else can be derived from that finger pointing every single time?
People do that to Catholic church as well, does that make you feel like EVERY clergy man is a predator?
It’s just a coincidence, but frequent enough, to make that connection.
Same as here. And those same homophobes and fragile masculiners will sing praises about well-built male bodies. And keep almost exclusively male company.
There are people who oppose gay marriage because it works for them politically, but if their base shifted opinions, would support it 100%. But they keep it all on the down low.
Sorry, are you saying being a priest is an inherent trait?
You choose to be a priest, exactly as you choose to be openly bigoted and build your entire platform around it.
You don’t choose to be queer.
And, again, every time someone says something homophobic, people claim they’re secretly queer.
No one claims all pedophiles are priests, but people claim all homophobes are queer.
Would you claim all antisemites are Jews? If not, what’s the difference?
Well everyone is on a spectrum then… strictly speaking it’s true. 😅